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  #21  
Old 03-04-2010, 09:43 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Wow! You're ability to read innacurately into my comments rivals my ability to read into yours LOL!

I never made that claim did I? Feel free to quote me where I did if you wish to make your point valid. Sticking to black and white would serve better in making your response more logical than emotional.
Who are "the good ones" then? You said this:

Quote:
Yes, it's a shame we lost some good ones.
Now whether it was your intent or not, to say *some* good ones implies that there were others that were lost that were *not* good ones in your view. Since you've requested logic in this and I generally approach most of what I say here pretty logically, implications are very clear lines of logical reasoning and do not involve "reading into" anything. I'm curious as to what standard applies in that situation, because I can definitely say that there are some good ones that have left because of what they saw as a hostile environment created by you.

Last edited by Ceoli; 03-04-2010 at 09:45 PM. Reason: to add the statement about logic
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  #22  
Old 03-04-2010, 09:50 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Who are "the good ones" then? You said this:



Now whether it was your intent or not, to say *some* good ones implies that there were others that were lost that were *not* good ones in your view. I'm curious as to what standard applies in that situation, because I can definitely say that there are some good ones that have left because of what they saw as a hostile environment created by you.
Me specifically? I'm not that influential LOL! But I do know how to recognize a useless decent into negativity...and so I will move on to positivity. It's as simple as thinking it!

Everyone take care
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  #23  
Old 03-04-2010, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Me specifically? I'm not that influential LOL! But I do know how to recognize a useless decent into negativity...and so I will move on to positivity. It's as simple as thinking it!

Everyone take care
You often take this route when called on your own negativity. In this instance, your blatant divisive point that only some members who left were "good." You even took the extra effort to italicize and underline. When asked to clarify, no response. It's bullshit.

Now you take care

~Raven~
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  #24  
Old 03-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=RoyalBlue][B]You often take this route when called on your own negativity. In this instance, your blatant divisive point that only some members who left were "good." You even took the extra effort to italicize and underline. When asked to clarify, no response. It's bullshit.
^This. And it has happened on this forum many many many times.
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  #25  
Old 03-05-2010, 12:56 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Good grief.

I have to say-I haven't YET read the link-only because it takes longer to load it on my computer than it takes me to read ( everything slows down when I open a new window, not very computer savvy here).

BUT-no matter where we go, we're going to encounter good and bad. We all have different pet peeves, different things we tolerate or don't.

It's good that people have places that they feel comfortable, but expecting everyone to feel comfortable in one place is... well setting yourself up for feeling failure. Because the more people you are including the higher the probability that SOMEONE is going to be uncomfortable.

I'm not arguing that somethings on here are obnoxious, annoying, rude etc.

But more often than not what I've seen-in myself and others-is an inability to understand what a person TRULY meant. We miss the playfulness or the sarcasm, or the intended meaning of a word (lord that was a hell of a thread because two people understood fuckbuddy to have different meanings!), or we expect the person we're talking to to be able to understand OUR experience and point of view-even though they have NO frame of reference for it.

Personally-I do choose to skip the messages that are triggering annoyance in me now. Because this is online-not r/l. I find it VERY important to address misunderstandings and annoyances in r/l. But here, why do I need to argue with anyone? I can go sleep on it-and contemplate it if I so desire until I can come up with WHY they may have said/thought/done whatever it was I found so irritating, I don't have to sit on here arguing endlessly about it.

I think the endless "no, I'm right and you are wrong!" posts and the "how dare you say xyz because we all KNOW it means tuv" posts are highly destructive to the overall atmosphere, compared to if we let the battle go and worked on showing an example of the type of communication we wish everyone had....

Not sure that came out clear, if not I'm sorry. I agree that it's important to fight for a better world and equal treatment of all, but a lot of times the best fighters, aren't really fighting.

I read an article last night about a baseball player, Willie Mays. A lot of people called him an Uncle Tom because he wasn't one to "fight" for anything. Instead he took the approach of becoming a man people could look up to and in doing so made a HUGE impact on racism, without a single argument about the mistreatment of his fellow race....

I think DOING what we wish others would do-and doing it OFTEN would accomplish a LOT more then bitching about how lousy other people are at doing it......
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  #26  
Old 03-05-2010, 01:09 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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I'm not arguing that somethings on here are obnoxious, annoying, rude etc.

But more often than not what I've seen-in myself and others-is an inability to understand what a person TRULY meant. We miss the playfulness or the sarcasm, or the intended meaning of a word (lord that was a hell of a thread because two people understood fuckbuddy to have different meanings!), or we expect the person we're talking to to be able to understand OUR experience and point of view-even though they have NO frame of reference for it.

Personally-I do choose to skip the messages that are triggering annoyance in me now. Because this is online-not r/l. I find it VERY important to address misunderstandings and annoyances in r/l. But here, why do I need to argue with anyone? I can go sleep on it-and contemplate it if I so desire until I can come up with WHY they may have said/thought/done whatever it was I found so irritating, I don't have to sit on here arguing endlessly about it.

I think the endless "no, I'm right and you are wrong!" posts and the "how dare you say xyz because we all KNOW it means tuv" posts are highly destructive to the overall atmosphere, compared to if we let the battle go and worked on showing an example of the type of communication we wish everyone had....
I happen to think it's a bit more than that, and I've laid out why in my previous posts.

Some people seem to have appointed themselves tacit permission *not* to address it when they've said or posted something hurtful yet tend to demand it when they are on the other side of the equation. And that seems to be a condoned behavior in general here, which is why many seasoned and experienced poly people and leaders in the various poly communities generally don't think very much of this forum.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I think DOING what we wish others would do-and doing it OFTEN would accomplish a LOT more then bitching about how lousy other people are at doing it......

When issues are *discussed* in a *discussion* forum and ignorance and assumptions arise from that that echo the very real experiences of ignorance and assumptions one experiences in their day to day life and a person decides to open that up to a discussion by calling it out, it's rather belittling to label that as "bitching". I'm not sure exactly what you are labeling as "bitching" and doubt that was your intent, but there it is nonetheless.
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  #27  
Old 03-05-2010, 01:36 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Actually, there are several other people I know of who have left this forum for the very reasons Joreth has stated. I also know several people who are active and long time members and organizers of poly communities take one look at this forum and decide not to bother because of over-protective and defensive flavor of the general posts. And given the very low ratio of active members to actual members, it suggests to me that the "welcoming environment" that is sought is a very selective one indeed since there are a relatively few number of people who choose to stick around. There are MANY people who have left this forum because they have felt this to be a hostile environment. And not because of posts such as Joreth's but because it just doesn't seem to be allowed to offend certain active members of this forum without there being a whole hell of a lot of fallout, even if what is considered "offending" is an actual hard truth being called out.
You may be right, but I have yet to find any online forum that didn't suffer this same fate. Especially "alternative lifestyle" type forums. Any time you get into these types of discussion, it's impossible not to push somebody's buttons, say something that hits a little to close to home, or otherwise piss somebody off. At least, not if you're going to say anything worthwhile.

When some people leave a forum, they announce it and detail everything that was done to them to "make" them leave.

Others just silently decide "this is a waste of time" and quit logging in.

Still others come, get what they need, and leave.

I suspect a lot of inactive members fall into this third category. A lot of people struggling with "this new poly thing that my husband wants to try" find this forum and post asking for help. People say all sorts of great encouraging and supporting things to them. They get as much out of the forum as they can grasp for where they are in their journey, and they quit logging in. That doesn't mean they were offended or driven away, it just means they've gotten what they need.

I notice that a lot of people who post asking for help or support don't post in other threads, meaning they're here specifically to get help on their own issue and not to participate in general discussions on polyamorous philosophy. There seems to be a very tight yet small core of regular posters. I've only been a regular member on one other forum, but I've joined at least a dozen over the years. Usually computer ones because I need help with a specific issue.

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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
It seems the only way to "contribute to the community in a positive manner" is to allow the ignorance and assumptions to go unchecked and to allow one's self to be continually insulted without getting angry and addressing it. At least for some members that seems to be the case.
I think it's all in how a person interprets it. I have seen more counter-examples than evidence of your claim.

Person A: "BLAH!"
Person B: "This is how I interpreted blah, but I could be wrong, can you elaborate?"
Person A: "oh, that's not what I mean, I meant this"
Person B: "ahh! I see now, thank you for clarifying that."

..... other people post 10,000 words on how their post was misinterpreted and how this misinterpretation was CLEARLY an attack on my opinion and how dare you accuse me of saying such a horrible thing?

The real question is, why are giving power over your emotions away to a bunch of strangers on the internet?

No one can make you get angry. You can choose to get mad, or you can choose to be amused. I used to let people's ignorance anger me, then I realized how much pain and anguish that caused me, and so I started taking everything I read online with a grain of salt. So as someone who's gone from letting you all [i.e. the population of the internet] get to me to someone who lets you all amuse me, I can very honestly say this is a lot less stressful.
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  #28  
Old 03-05-2010, 02:02 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Person A: "BLAH!"
Person B: "This is how I interpreted blah, but I could be wrong, can you elaborate?"
Person A: "oh, that's not what I mean, I meant this"
Person B: "ahh! I see now, thank you for clarifying that."

..... other people post 10,000 words on how their post was misinterpreted and how this misinterpretation was CLEARLY an attack on my opinion and how dare you accuse me of saying such a horrible thing?
I have made this argument ad nauseam every single time someone has accused me of attacking them for having an opinion about something. Believe me I understand this dynamic.



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The real question is, why are giving power over your emotions away to a bunch of strangers on the internet?
I don't. Which is why I have a high tolerance for hostile environments. That doesn't mean that I don't find hypocrisy frustrating and it doesn't mean that I should be silent about ignorance and hurtful assumptions. I don't hold my personal hurt as the reason for calling that out. I hold my principles of anti-oppression and open honest expression as my reasons for calling it out. My own personal experience with how that has been received has been quite negative on many occasions. When I'm talking about that here, I'm pointing out the issues I have with it, not giving over my emotions to strangers on the internet.

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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
No one can make you get angry. You can choose to get mad, or you can choose to be amused. I used to let people's ignorance anger me, then I realized how much pain and anguish that caused me, and so I started taking everything I read online with a grain of salt. So as someone who's gone from letting you all [i.e. the population of the internet] get to me to someone who lets you all amuse me, I can very honestly say this is a lot less stressful.
I suggest you look at my posting history to get a clearer idea of where I'm coming from. This is another argument I've made ad nauseam when I've been accused of being insensitive. I have *never* held anyone on this forum responsible for my feelings and I have frequently commented on the folly of doing so. This is a lifestories and blog section, which you may notice I rarely post in because I respect that it's a place for people to air out their own feelings. I posted here because Joreth's frustrations with the culture of this forum echo my frustrations and I saw nothing wrong with expressing that. I'm not *angry* as much as tired of the same old shit over and over again. Plain and simple. This is an online forum that claims to be an open and welcoming forum. I'm merely pointing out that this probably isn't as much the reality of the situation that many would believe.
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  #29  
Old 03-05-2010, 03:21 AM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
I suspect a lot of inactive members fall into this third category. A lot of people struggling with "this new poly thing that my husband wants to try" find this forum and post asking for help. People say all sorts of great encouraging and supporting things to them. They get as much out of the forum as they can grasp for where they are in their journey, and they quit logging in. That doesn't mean they were offended or driven away, it just means they've gotten what they need.

I notice that a lot of people who post asking for help or support don't post in other threads, meaning they're here specifically to get help on their own issue and not to participate in general discussions on polyamorous philosophy. There seems to be a very tight yet small core of regular posters. I've only been a regular member on one other forum, but I've joined at least a dozen over the years. Usually computer ones because I need help with a specific issue.
This is very pertinent.

Poly people seeking advice could very well follow the advice of some who recommend prescriptive rules in their relationships and condone the concept of treating newer partners as lesser beings than partners from pre-existing relationships, as well as treating current partners as 4 year olds who need to have their hands held to cross the street.

I can't get behind views that are based on treating others as lesser people. There's no justification.

I think it is important that other views than this be shown. Joreth only highlighted this and issues which have been discussed by Ceoli, myself and other poly people several times over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
The real question is, why are giving power over your emotions away to a bunch of strangers on the internet?

No one can make you get angry. You can choose to get mad, or you can choose to be amused. I used to let people's ignorance anger me, then I realized how much pain and anguish that caused me, and so I started taking everything I read online with a grain of salt. So as someone who's gone from letting you all [i.e. the population of the internet] get to me to someone who lets you all amuse me, I can very honestly say this is a lot less stressful.
I've seen others handing their emotions over as the responsibility of others here more times than I can count. Usually as a way to cop out and drive the discussion to focus on them and away from the topic. "Bullying" is often perpetrated by the accusers which degenerates the discussion into posters with valid points defending themselves for having an opinion. Discussions stay pretty much on point until someone decides they are being attacked by the existence of another poster's opinion. It is not a discussion method I choose to engage in.

The internet is a medium by which real people discuss real issues. With all seriousness, the internet is a tad more than just strangers judging by how many institutions and organizations and companies use it as their chief means of conducting business, communication, and commerce. It helps people get rich. If wielded right, it can help you be president. Things get done over the internet. This is not 1998.

In this case, we are speaking of hypocrisy, oppressive behaviors and ideologies which exist within the poly community and which have been reflected on the internet in places like this forum. Discussion which involves critical thinking and analysis of these issues brings change. Silence in the face of oppression allows oppression to perpetuate. Those who address these behaviors and choose not to remain silent are seeking to change the community for the better using a powerful medium such as the internet as one means to do so. They serve to show that there are differing views from those who would silence those views.

I've heard the "choosing" to feel or not feel position before. It is unrealistic. Based on this premise of being able to choose what we feel, we can choose to love one person and we can choose not to feel sorrow when those closest to us die. What we control are our actions, not our emotions.

It is important that individuals and groups be highlighted and held accountable for the role they play and the impact they have on the poly community through their actions.

~Raven~
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  #30  
Old 03-05-2010, 04:54 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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I've heard the "choosing" to feel or not feel position before. It is unrealistic. Based on this premise of being able to choose what we feel, we can choose to love one person and we can choose not to feel sorrow when those closest to us die. What we control are our actions, not our emotions.
This is an old debate that occurs between those who have learned to control their emotions and those who haven't. Those who have know from first hand experience that you can do it. Those who haven't can't imagine how it could possibly be done. I've been on both sides of the argument at different points in my life.

Before I learned some techniques to control my emotions, I completely agreed with you. I even chose it as a topic for my term paper in first year philosophy. I had all sorts of eloquent arguments about how even if you could choose how you feel about something, you can't choose to choose and so on. I had a boyfriend at the time who told me you actually could change the way you feel, using the fact that he had done it as his evidence. At the time, I said he was full of it.

But there most definitely are techniques you can learn to choose to feel a certain way. It's definitely not easy, it doesn't come overnight or without a lot of practice and careful self-examination. You have to constantly monitor your thoughts. But I know it can be done, because I've learned to do it.

I know that the internet is full of real people, and I try to respect this. But I find that when I'm coping with how other people behave online, it's much easier to think of them as strangers with whom I have no vested interest. That way I don't take their words personally unless specifically adressed to me by name. And if someone does attack me personally by name, I prefer to treat them as a dumb jerk trying to prove some stupid point rather than to get all offended and hurt.
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