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  #51  
Old 10-05-2013, 07:57 AM
london london is offline
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It's not a case of kids being less of a priority for some people, is just that some people, like me, acknowledge that their child has more than one adult who can take care of them so I don't have to cancel everything anytime my son sneezes. Nor does he need all his family gathered around him when he scrapes his knee. Of course, in an emergency, I'd drop everything but nine out of ten things that could come up aren't emergencies and can be sorted by the adult responsible for him at that time. I don't have to be with my family all the time for me (or them) to feel as if I am an active part of the unit. We can have time away from our family without it meaning that we are absent or neglectful of our responsibilities. Of course, if you are unable to fulfil your obligations then you certainly shouldn't be looking for new ones but I'll reiterate, fulfilling your obligations as a partner, parent or other family member does not mean you have to dedicate every spare second to them and if you believe that it does mean that to you, I can't understand a) why you'd consider starting relationships with anyone new or b) why you'd think you have a chance of success at building other relationships. But from my experience, you usually find that the poly people who live by this type of ethos don't have successful relationships outside of the primary union.

Last edited by london; 10-05-2013 at 08:05 AM.
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  #52  
Old 10-05-2013, 03:24 PM
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Murasaki Murasaki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
LOVED these points!

I am always amazed by the attitude that trust should be inherent just because someone wants sex.
I didn't do that when I was considering who to date, WHY would I do that in poly?
I wouldn't.
I agree wholeheartedly. I am also not quick to “trust” especially when sex is involved, or anticipated. I need a solid friendship before I find myself feeling comfortable getting sexually intimate with another person. Sometimes this takes years. Well Kuroi took more than a year for our friendship to build, trust to be established, and sex to be on the menu.

I made the mistake of following my ex’s que on PDA, intimacy, and sex. A mistake I knew better than to make, and intend not to make again. I suppose 20 years is long enough to forget (or dismiss) what worked originally? Most likely it was the NRE talking. >.>

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
And-there has been and will be no effort to find a "HBB" because none of us is interested in sharing a lover. So that is arbitrary too.
I would be more interested in being the “HBB” sadly I don’t meet the job requirements.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Any individual who was a potential for one of us-is going to be held to precisely the expectations that were held for us to become a V.

Maca had to earn my trust and I his.
GG had to earn my trust and I his.
Maca and GG had to earn each others trust.

. . .

This was a reality of my "single dating" life. It's true of my poly dating life. (not that there is much of one but whatever).
THIS is my point. Each person has a different comfort level. Dating as a Poly person should not be looked at as being so different that dating as a single. Other than the increased responsibilities, expectations, and family agreements.

In my world, I recognize that I can easily go out and date, and meet the “needs” of my current partner without a new discussion taking place. However these 15+ years of living together, have created some expectations between us. These expectation are not “needs” and aren’t really “wants” per say. They are the loving, I am thinking of you things we do for each other.

There was a thread here about a live in partner having serious stress and anxiety. After a couple days of working out what the cause was, why it was occurring the couple figured out that it was over a missing toothbrush. That was the live in partners expectation, easy to take care of the mental health in that situation. Would be nice if I can avoid that amount of stress for Momoiroi, or Kuroi by discussing what things would cause that kind of stress, before assuming everything will be fine. That they will adjust. These are the things that my partners and I actually discuss before I embark on things that can lead to dating.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
It's also true of anyone who wants to date either of the guys. THEY ARE PARENTS. They have full time obligations, to their children and their jobs and their current partner.
It's unreasonable to expect that obligations get dropped in order to increase relationships.
New relationships being an option is only available if current obligations are managed.
Period.
Yes and this is why I talk about my time constraints in the beginning. Before there are any romantic emotions truly involved. (email, and IM crushing is not the say as having strong NRE or ORE emotions involved) I am fine with become friends, and not having the ability to grow into more than that due to difference in the amount of time we are each looking for from an SO. My heavy time constraints make my preference to date a married simplier. I see another married person as having heavy time constraints of their own (not the same kinds of time restraints, just more time needed for family things then what my single friends need). I also feel that a married won’t be expecting me to be their hierarchical “primary”. This important to me, and I’m open about this right away. I do not have the time, or energy to be someone’s primary relationship. I am also not looking to become entangled in the fashion that would create another primary relationship for myself, but then “not looking” for something has never stopped it from finding me.

Over this past week Kuroi and I have been talking about my being more social. I'm currently dealing with a lot of negative emotions. It can be like a roller coaster sometimes. Kuroi is also dealing with a lot of negative emotions. We handle these differently, but Kuroi has suggested that I follow the example Kuroi puts out there. Get out, be social meet people.

Kuroi told me specifically that getting out, meeting people helps reduce Kuroi's feelings of anxiety. Even if I talk to no one, and no one starts up a conversation with me I can at least enjoy the view. I am current in a more "withdraw" from everyone, and everything place, but this conversation has me considering where I'd want to go and enjoy the view.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #53  
Old 10-05-2013, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
It has occurred to me to check and see if my prior posts would be tweaked at all by my particular situation, as you intimated, Murasaki.
For the record I made that suggestion because reading your remarks gave me the impression that they were geared towards a married couple seeking a single. Which on the surface does seem to fit in your situation. I also felt that your wording was more looking at things as the Married couple being of the unicorn hunting variety, and I didn't believe you were anyone's Unicorn.

Perhaps my word choices were taken more aggressively then I intended. If offense was taken, none was intended.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.

Last edited by Murasaki; 10-05-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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  #54  
Old 10-05-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by london View Post
No, I saw what you said, but other stuff you have said, including the passive aggressive tone of the OP suggests otherwise.
I was willing to once again give the benefit of the doubt until I read this part.

Passive-aggressive? hahahaha You cracked me up with that one. I shared this with Kuroi, who also laughed and said, “No I’d call you aggressive-aggressive. Nothing passive about you. Well outside of the bedroom anyway.”

Quote:
What is passive-aggressive behavior? What are some of the signs?
Answer from Daniel K. Hall-Flavin, M.D

Passive-aggressive behavior is a pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of openly addressing them. There's a disconnect between what a passive-aggressive person says and what he or she does.

For example, a passive-aggressive person might appear to agree — perhaps even enthusiastically — with another person's request. Rather than complying with the request, however, he or she might express anger or resentment by failing to follow through or missing deadlines.

Specific signs of passive-aggressive behavior include:
*Resentment and opposition to the demands of others
*Procrastination and intentional mistakes in response to others' demands
*Cynical, sullen or hostile attitude
*Frequent complaints about feeling underappreciated or cheated

Although passive-aggressive behavior can be a feature of various mental health conditions, it isn't considered a distinct mental illness. However, passive-aggressive behavior can interfere with relationships and cause difficulties on the job. If you're struggling with passive-aggressive behavior — or you think a loved one is — consider consulting a therapist.
Quote:
Confronting Passive Aggressive Behavior
Published on May 4, 2013 by Signe Whitson, L.S.W. in Passive Aggressive Diaries

1. Recognize the Warning Signs of Passive Aggression Behavior

Passive aggression is a deliberate and masked way of expressing covert feelings of anger (Long, Long & Whitson, 2009). This “sugarcoated hostility” involves a variety of behaviors designed to get back at another person without the other recognizing the underlying anger. When a person is able to quickly identify hallmark passive aggressive behaviors for what they are—hidden expressions of anger—they take the first critical step in disengaging from the destructive dynamic. Some of the most common passive aggressive behaviors to be aware of include:

*Procrastination
*Behaving beneath customary standards
*Pretending not to see, hear, remember, or understand requests
*The silent treatment
*Sulking & withdrawal
*Gossiping

2. Refuse to Engage

Passive aggressive adults are experts at getting others to act out their hidden anger. The skill of recognizing passive aggressive behaviors at face value allows you to be forewarned and to make a choice not to become entangled in a no-win power struggle. When you sense these destructive dynamics coming into play, manage your own emotions through such self-talk statements as:

“He is being passive aggressive and I will not participate in this routine.”

“I will not yell or become sarcastic because this behavior will only escalate the conflict.”

3. Point Out the Elephant in the Room

Passive aggressive persons spend their lives avoiding direct emotional expression and guarding against open acknowledgment of their anger. One of the most powerful ways to confront passive aggressive dynamics and change the behavior in the long-term, then, is to be willing to point out anger directly, when it is present in a situation. Anger should be affirmed in a factual, non-judgmental way, such as, “It seems to me that you are angry at me for making this request.” The impact of this seemingly simple exposure can be quite profound.

4. Expect & Accept Denial

Your goal is to make overt the anger that has been covert, stuffed inside, and kept secret for so long. Expect that once this has been done, the passive aggressive person will very likely deny the existence of anger.

When he does, you should verbally accept the defenses for the time being, with a response such as, “Okay! It was just a thought I wanted to share with you.” Don’t argue or correct the person’s denial at this time, but rather quietly back away from further discussion, leaving your spouse with the thought that you are aware there are some feelings of anger behind his behavior.

The advantage of this approach is the comfort of not having to justify or defend your acknowledgement of the anger. By simply sharing your awareness of his covert anger, you have sent a bold and powerful message that the passive aggressive behavior cannot continue and the relationship needs to change.
I can follow the suggestions on how to handle passive aggressive behavior if need be.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #55  
Old 10-05-2013, 03:37 PM
london london is offline
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The whole tone of your original OP was basically "I believe x but I am going to pretend that I am objectively looking for differing perspectives but really I just want to rant about the people who I know think differently to me".
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  #56  
Old 10-05-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Sigh. I'd like to be out. My two companions are like no, no way, impossible, so I have agreed to honor their wishes (even though I occasionally mention the benefits of outing ourselves). Much of our families would freak, freak, freak. Some would be supportive. I think my companions are more vulnerable to their families' opinions of them than I am. Yeah, I already left the Mormon church, so I've already done the "worst possible thing" I could do to my family. They already know that if I do something that seems freaky to them, they might as well just deal with with it, because their only other option is falling out of contact with me. I've already been down that route and it no longer bothers me. Heck I'd like to come out and find out who my fast friends are.
Kuroi and I currently have no issue with being out. My work environment isn’t such that “office parties” happen, and Kuroi has only meet a couple of the people I have worked with over the last 10 years. Each of those people we were out to.
Family is another matter. The family who visit us regularly we are out to. There are a lot of religious people in my family, so they don’t know yet, but we aren't so much “hiding” it from them. It’s discussed on a need to know bases. My family does not live close, they are much more spread out than Kuroi’s. When the need arise they will know.

As far as any SO wanting to be out, or hidden. That will be for them to consider, and decide. I will respect their wishes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
I've tried the internet dating site scene, but it never led to anything, and never left me feeling particularly better to boot. Actually one particular scandal grew out of OKCupid, but that's a long sordid tale for another place and time.

Both of the great romances in my life started with platonic friendships. Things of a certain quality don't just form overnight.
I have meet several good friends via online dating sites. Making it clear that what I am actually looking for is friendship, with the possibility of growing into more than that later has helped (I think). My greatest relationship have all started as friendships. Kuroi and I were friends first, there was desire from early on, but intimacy and sex were not on the radar from me for a long while.

Another long time friend and I have had a very platonic situation until this past year. Now we have both awaked to an interest in intimacy with each other. Unfortunately it is not something we can act on right now. It is what it is, there is a possibility that intimacy can be established at a later time. Neither of us is pushing for that due to the circumstance that make intimacy not a viable option right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
As for dating, I guess it's possible for everyone to "lay it all on the line" at the start and say, "Okay, I can live with that," only to find out later (when the rubber meets the road) that their emotions have a mind of their own and they can't handle this or that rule after all. So I mean I'm saying, I know you can't always prevent broken hearts or unhappy relationships. But you can certainly improve the odds of things running smoothly by telling each other, right from the start, exactly what you can and can't expect from one another.
I feel like you are describing my most recent Poly experience. Laying it all out there from the beginning doesn’t prevent hurt, and broken hearts when one of the person in a relationship find that something within that relationship isn’t working for them. My ex and I were looking for similar things when we got involved, or so we thought. In the end it turned out not to be the case, once I figured out what wasn’t working I could no longer continue in relationship with my ex.

I am still hurt and heart broken over it. It’s a struggle. Made more difficult by the emotions shared by my ex and Kuroi. My ex and I breaking up definitely strained the relationship between them. I was no longer willing to be a participate in the relationship. I wanted out completely. Needed space to lick my wounds and heal. I didn’t want my ex inviting me out and walking around looking like a couple. My ex is much more into PDA then I am, so a break up that includes PDA with my ex does not work for me. I was willing to be friends, but I needed distance. My ex was not ok with that, friction ensued.

My ex could not understand why I was uncomfortable going out with just my ex, or with the two of them.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #57  
Old 10-05-2013, 04:13 PM
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Murasaki Murasaki is offline
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I do not claim to know or understand the life of a solo poly person. To me “solo poly” refers to a person who does not live with any of their partners, and keeps their relationships as segregated as possible. I make guesses about how life from the perspective of a solo poly person works, but they are just my guesses.

If/when I am not living with my SO then I will gain some knowledge of how that works. To my minds eye a solo poly person, and their SO’s have very different expectations on each other, and those expectation (to me) are easier to work with than the expectations on live-in partners. The responsibilities, the time, and financial concerns would/could be similar, and make for a basic topic of conversation that I can relate to and understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
I need to meet the person alone so we can have time together to assess our compatibility. I need for our relationship to be able to progress how we want it to, free from the influence and control of anyone else. That means if we meet up and decide to have sex that day, we can, without having to ask permission from a spouse. Let me give you an example, say I meet a guy online, Steve, and Steve has a wife, Daisy. Daisy, to feel comfortable, needs Steve to start his dates at home where she can meet them first. This is out of my comfort zone, I am happy to adapt my usual way of doing things by agreeing to spend time with his wife and perhaps family once we know we want to see more of one another but meeting them before I have even met Steve properly is just not going to happen. Steve encourages people to meet Daisy as she requests because he wants to "accommodate her needs" but at the same time, Steve and I have hit it off and he wants to see if we have any future. Would accommodating my needs when on a date with him be totally unreasonable? Should he pass up what we could have because his wife has needs that affect the way he can interact with other people he is considering having relations with? Should she, simply because she is his wife, get to say how we date? I mean, yes, Steve has a responsibility to maintain his existing relationships whilst he develops new ones, but does that mean he has to dismiss the perfectly reasonable wishes the person he is considering as a partner has when they date? Does that mean that I should go out of my comfort zone because of what his wife requires? No, I say.
This seems like you are angry about a situation you have been in and I have become the target of that anger. I am sorry you found yourself in such a situation, I and my family did not create the situation which caused you such distress, and is the source of your current anger.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #58  
Old 10-05-2013, 05:48 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
As for dating, I guess it's possible for everyone to "lay it all on the line" at the start and say, "Okay, I can live with that," only to find out later (when the rubber meets the road) that their emotions have a mind of their own and they can't handle this or that rule after all. So I mean I'm saying, I know you can't always prevent broken hearts or unhappy relationships. But you can certainly improve the odds of things running smoothly by telling each other, right from the start, exactly what you can and can't expect from one another.
Very true. Things change over time.
But-if you start with a clear understanding of where things are, it's much easier to avoid the "omg how could you" issues of people thinking you lied-when it was lack of a topic coming up.
OR
As seems to be the case with Maca, people assume that you want/will offer one thing, which you never intended to, and they get pissed off and create drama because "everyone knows" that's what was meant by xyz behavior.

Too many people make the assumption that their ideas are everyone's ideas. Dangerous path!

I've had a number of relationships and I'm friends with all of them now.
But I can honestly say that the ones with the least drama and issues were the ones I took time to befriend before jumping in the sack. People who REALLY knew me. Knew the "bad" me before they decided yay or nay regarding getting in bed with me.

The ones I cruised into sexual relationships with before really getting to know each other well-were like atom bombs. Just ticking.
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  #59  
Old 10-05-2013, 06:04 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Murasaki-

Random-what to the names you use on here mean? They read so cool.

On topic:

Nycindie has posted some GREAT information about how solopoly works for her. I LOVE to read her posts. She's so agreeably understanding that people are different and have different needs. She's a polar opposite of me in her poly. But she's so respectful that I love discussing topics we disagree on with her. You might check out some of her writing.

I read (and commented) on the toothbrush post. Which is what I think of it as now.

I TOTALLY get it and it's one of the key factors in how we do things. WHY distress someone for no reason? These people I share a life with, I love. I care for them and they care for me. I am a caretaker for them and they for me. If something as silly as being sure my shoes aren't borrowed or the toothbrush doesn't leave makes things run smoothly-who could argue with agreeing to it?
That's not a "rule" much less a "rule that negatively impacts a new partner". What the hell does a new partner care if you leave a toothbrush at home (as long as you HAVE one at their place or on you so your teeth get cleaned?).

In all honesty, before I was married I was in open relationships for a long time. Sometimes as a solo, for four years with a live in partner. Combining that to the 4 years we've been poly gives me roughly 10-12 years of living an open relationship style. Always done in the same basic way I do it now. Everyone knows everyone else. Everyone gets along.
In all of that time, I never have encountered a person who felt there was a conflict over making allowances for comfort for EACH PERSON.

If my new partner was uncomfortable with eating meat, we wouldn't expect them to eat meat (yes been there done that). If they were uncomfortable with nudity in front of others, we wouldn't be getting nude in front of them or asking them to.
I mean really... it's about EVERYONE has comfort. I won't create discomfort for my live-ins to benefit the personal desires of a new person (or vice versa). I won't drop my current responsibilities either.

It's like a job. If I have a job and I want a second job. I can't just go get a second job that has the same hours as the first and expect the first job not to terminate my employment. That's irresponsible and stupid. I can seek a second job that is not going to disrupt my ability to do my first job. If there is a small amount of overlap, I can see if my first job is willing to make some allowances so I can manage both.
But I have a responsibility to uphold my current agreements with my first job OR terminate the contract if I can't. It's not reasonable to expect my first job to wait for me to reappear while I go run off to check out a new job.

Or God forbid, can you imagine. You have a second child and tell the first that they will just have to go live with someone else because you are too busy to deal with them?
My friend had a preemie by emergency c section when she was 6 months pregnant. She and baby nearly died. They had a 2 year old at home. It was iffy for almost 4 months as to whether baby was going to make it.
It traumatized the 2 year old. They busted their butts, had someone come stay with them so she was always at home, took turns going to the hospital so that one of them could always be with her and not "abandon" her. But it was still traumatizing having so much stress and attention on this new little being she never met (she was too young and they wouldn't allow her in the NICU). The girls are 12 and soon to be 10 now. The oldest still has abandonment issues and resentment issues. This was an unplanned crisis.

But to knowingly put your loved ones into unnecessary crisis? Asinine.

Ok-time for me to shut up go drink my morning chai and hush my mouth. Sorry!
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  #60  
Old 10-05-2013, 07:20 PM
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Murasaki Murasaki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Murasaki-

Random-what to the names you use on here mean? They read so cool.
It's a secret. >.> J/k They are colors in Japanese.
Murasaki - Purple
Kuroi -Black
Momoiroi - Pink

Not sure which others I have used, but I put a color to each person before writing about them here. I chose that as my theme in this forum, but I use other themes else where. Doesn't have to make sense, sometimes it’s just that the sound in Japanese feels right for the person I gave that color too. Other times it's the color that person was wearing when we met. Either on their body, or in their hair.
Akai -means red and was the "flash" of color in that persons hair when we meet face to face.
Kuroi -wears black pants all the time.
Murasaki -One of my favorite Gogole Bordello songs is "start wearing Purple"
Momoiroi -One of Momoiroi's fav songs is by Pink


I enjoy looking for interesting connections and picking a "theme" and pulling the words from another language to connect to a person.

My preferred languages to look up are Russian, and Japanese. Momoiroi offered to tell me colors in Chinese if/when I run out of Japanese ones.
What do Russian and Japanese have in common to me? Nothing really. Just that I like the way words are spelled, or sound in those languages.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
On topic:

Nycindie has posted some GREAT information about how solopoly works for her. I LOVE to read her posts. She's so agreeably understanding that people are different and have different needs. She's a polar opposite of me in her poly. But she's so respectful that I love discussing topics we disagree on with her. You might check out some of her writing.
Momoiroi: *reading over my shoulder comments on this part* That reminds me of you! Discussing topics with people you disagree with.

I’ll go look for some of Nycindie’s threads, when I have time to sit and read (the weekends aren’t great for that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I TOTALLY get it and it's one of the key factors in how we do things. WHY distress someone for no reason? These people I share a life with, I love. I care for them and they care for me. I am a caretaker for them and they for me. If something as silly as being sure my shoes aren't borrowed or the toothbrush doesn't leave makes things run smoothly-who could argue with agreeing to it?
That's not a "rule" much less a "rule that negatively impacts a new partner". What the hell does a new partner care if you leave a toothbrush at home (as long as you HAVE one at their place or on you so your teeth get cleaned?).
yes exactly. I’m sure there are thing of this nature that could negatively impact on another relationship. However I believe that most of the time this kind of thing can be easily remedied if taken care of early, before the problem become too large to for an easy solution to be found.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
It's like a job. If I have a job and I want a second job. I can't just go get a second job that has the same hours as the first and expect the first job not to terminate my employment. That's irresponsible and stupid. I can seek a second job that is not going to disrupt my ability to do my first job. If there is a small amount of overlap, I can see if my first job is willing to make some allowances so I can manage both.
But I have a responsibility to uphold my current agreements with my first job OR terminate the contract if I can't. It's not reasonable to expect my first job to wait for me to reappear while I go run off to check out a new job.
I think this is probably the best example/explanation of my thoughts here I have read yet. I’m glad you found the right words to express this sentiment. I apparently have not been able to convey it properly myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Or God forbid, can you imagine. You have a second child and tell the first that they will just have to go live with someone else because you are too busy to deal with them?
That would be extreme, but isn’t far from the mark when couples talk about the “poly hell” things they go through.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Ok-time for me to shut up go drink my morning chai and hush my mouth. Sorry!
enjoy your Chai. Hmm, maybe I’ll join you (from a distance) and have a cup of hot tea myself.
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Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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