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  #101  
Old 03-04-2010, 06:42 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Originally Posted by rolypoly View Post
Wanting to date you when you have a kid gives someone the opportunity to have a kid in their life.
Great point RolyPoly! I think it comes down to what you are committing to when you enter a relationship with someone who has a family. I have the ability due to my location and personal circumstances to commit extensively. I'm not only committing to Redpepper, I am committing to the health and prosperity of her family, my family. I enjoy my time with all the members of my chosen family as a group and individually.

It's an honour to be asked for my input and help with Redpepper's son. I was once a pretty good dad, I can use that to help out when asked and wanted.
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  #102  
Old 03-04-2010, 06:46 PM
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I like to devote my time entirely to a person and since I have had a child I haven't been able to do that. Its getting better as he gets older and does his own thing more, but yesterday was a reminder of how sometimes I am not able to give what I feel someone deserves. I understand that they just have to accept that, I just personally struggle with it sometimes.
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  #103  
Old 03-04-2010, 07:21 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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I would suggest that anyone wanting to date someone with a child take that into consideration... it isn't a prescription, it just is. Those little people, by their very nature, are demanding. They are the captains of the ship in many ways and within certain limits, mixed with the whole having to be responsible for them bit.
I would suggest that people stop making the assumption that prospective partners are the kind of people who don't already take into account the kind of commitment a child requires. Because unless a person has a habit of getting involved with jerks, most prospective partners are generally going to know these things and it isn't a magic knowledge that belongs only to those people who have children. And it's pretty insulting to be continually treated like a person who needs to be told this since it's kind of filed under "should be obvious" for a great deal of the population. And for those for whom it isn't, I probably would get the clue pretty quickly that they are not someone who I would bother getting involved with.

That's the point that has been repeatedly made throughout this thread, yet again people feel the need to point out the obvious- that children are an important consideration in any relationship. NOBODY is disputing that and that has been said REPEATEDLY throughout this. The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made.

So if you're talking about simply knowing that your child is the most important factor in your life when making relationship decisions and creates natural limits that everyone has to work with, the issues that are being raised are not about you or the fact that kids are important and naturally create boundaries and limits.
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  #104  
Old 03-04-2010, 07:38 PM
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I'm thinking that if someone is that concerned about potential partners fucking up the situation with the kid(s), they should probably not date at all until the kids are grown, or at least old enough to stand up for themselves.

And before someone accuses that of being an "age-ist" remark - no, I don't think it would be the SAME AGE for every child. However, I do think it's important to not place the burden on a child of making adult decisions prematurely. So I would say that a kid becomes "old enough to stand up for itself" somewhere between the ages of 10 and 16. But no, I didn't invent the world and I wasn't handed this age range on stone tablets by a burning bush on top of a mountain in the desert.

Sheesh.
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  #105  
Old 03-04-2010, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I would suggest that people stop making the assumption that prospective partners are the kind of people who don't already take into account the kind of commitment a child requires. Because unless a person has a habit of getting involved with jerks, most prospective partners are generally going to know these things and it isn't a magic knowledge that belongs only to those people who have children. And it's pretty insulting to be continually treated like a person who needs to be told this since it's kind of filed under "should be obvious" for a great deal of the population. And for those for whom it isn't, I probably would get the clue pretty quickly that they are not someone who I would bother getting involved with.

That's the point that has been repeatedly made throughout this thread, yet again people feel the need to point out the obvious- that children are an important consideration in any relationship. NOBODY is disputing that and that has been said REPEATEDLY throughout this. The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made.

So if you're talking about simply knowing that your child is the most important factor in your life when making relationship decisions and creates natural limits that everyone has to work with, the issues that are being raised are not about you or the fact that kids are important and naturally create boundaries and limits.
Okay, I'm confused. The whole, kids are important thing might be obvious to you but it isn't always to others who are looking for a partnership. I have had people decide not to consider me because I have a child. That is their choice and I respect them for it.

I don't make assumptions when I enter a relationship with a person about anything really. I just wait and see and find out what they are like, what they want to know about us and how we could all fit together. It really has little do with my boy at the beginning. He comes in later. How someone feels about him being our responsibility is part and parcel to all of it. He is who we are. We move towards encompassing how a potential partner will change that and us them, if that is the roll they and we decide will work for us all. Like adding ingredients to soup, not like putting a bread roll beside the soup.

I am not sure why you are feeling insulted. If this is all obvious to you then maybe I am not talking to you and talking to someone who is now saying in their mind, "ohhhhh, okay, I get it." In essense, I think I am giving them that "clue" by talking about it.

Okay, what does this mean? "The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made."

What are the issues that are hurtful, what are the real situations, what is it that is being ignored? the part where you say, "people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made," what do you mean....? did I miss a thread or something, cause I was not aware that I personally was ignoring something, I have been simply telling my story and thoughts. If that is in someway insulting then I would like to know how,.... I invite you to explain what you mean by the above Ceoli, because I don't wish to be insulting, and hurtful. I wish to understand.
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  #106  
Old 03-04-2010, 09:11 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Okay, I'm confused. The whole, kids are important thing might be obvious to you but it isn't always to others who are looking for a partnership. I have had people decide not to consider me because I have a child. That is their choice and I respect them for it.
How is not considering you evidence of not being aware of the importance of kids? It might suggest that they DO know how important kids are and would prefer to have a partner where they don't have to defer to that.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I am not sure why you are feeling insulted. If this is all obvious to you then maybe I am not talking to you and talking to someone who is now saying in their mind, "ohhhhh, okay, I get it." In essense, I think I am giving them that "clue" by talking about it.
The insult is twofold. In general, it's insulting to be considered that way by a prospective partner. Also, the insult in general on this thread is that it has been REPEATEDLY said that it's not about being unaware of the importance of children yet people still seem to continually bring it up in this thread as if it hasn't already been addressed multiple times.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Okay, what does this mean? "The issues that have been brought up are hurtful and real situations that are faced by people and yet people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made."
There are people who have been treated like shit by partnered poly people. In fact, it happens quite often if you're a single poly person looking for poly relationships with people who already have partners and it sucks. And what sucks more is that most people tend to justify that it's ok to treat unpartnered or prospective new partners like that because of the kids or the family or the marriage or the primary relationship etc. To be told that it's ok to be treated like a second class citizen is hurtful and is often perpetrated by people who choose to practice poly in this manner. Sure, it's their poly and works for them. And as long as you don't have to consider the hurtful consequences that it holds for other people then that's fine.


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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
What are the issues that are hurtful, what are the real situations, what is it that is being ignored? the part where you say, "people are continuing to ignore that and try to argue a point that is NOT being made," what do you mean....? did I miss a thread or something, cause I was not aware that I personally was ignoring something, I have been simply telling my story and thoughts. If that is in someway insulting then I would like to know how,.... I invite you to explain what you mean by the above Ceoli, because I don't wish to be insulting, and hurtful. I wish to understand.
If you really want to understand, I suggest you read Joreth's post in her LJ about it because she's pretty clear about exactly what is hurtful about such arrangements. And yes she throws a tantrum about it because it's her journal to do that with and she fully acknowledges it. If you don't want to read it, I'll cut and paste the relevant bits for you, but honestly, she says it very well.
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  #107  
Old 03-04-2010, 09:36 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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There are people who have been treated like shit by partnered poly people. In fact, it happens quite often if you're a single poly person looking for poly relationships with people who already have partners and it sucks. And what sucks more is that most people tend to justify that it's ok to treat unpartnered or prospective new partners like that because of the kids or the family or the marriage or the primary relationship etc. To be told that it's ok to be treated like a second class citizen is hurtful and is often perpetrated by people who choose to practice poly in this manner. Sure, it's their poly and works for them. And as long as you don't have to consider the hurtful consequences that it holds for other people then that's fine.




I realize that this does go on, but I see it as the problem of the people doing the hurtful behaviours. If I were a single person who had been treated poorly by a partner who is in a "primary" relationship, I'd FEEL hurt, but my friends and the logical side of my brain would say "It is not YOU with the problem, you can't FORCE people to not be assholes." I have been treated poorly in one-on-one dating relationships (I was going to say "monogamous", but just because neither party is seriously involved with someone else doesn't mean the relationship is monogamous in nature) and I don't consider it something that I need to fix for the other people that might date that person someday.

Once again, I see this as something that falls under the old "mono and poly relationships are no different except for the number of people involved". If you dated an unpartnered person and they didn't treat you with the kind of respect you'd expect, how is that any different from being disrespected by a pre-partnered person? It's not ok for a single, divorced parent to treat someone like shit in the name of "protecting the children" so I guess I don't see how this is really a "poly" issue.


I would venture that if a "poly-couple" is into making prescriptive rules to protect their "primary" relationship, that A) maybe they're not ready to practice a poly lifestyle and B) they are not someone I'd want to involve myself with on that level.

Why are these things not obvious to everyone?
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  #108  
Old 03-04-2010, 09:54 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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I realize that this does go on, but I see it as the problem of the people doing the hurtful behaviours. If I were a single person who had been treated poorly by a partner who is in a "primary" relationship, I'd FEEL hurt, but my friends and the logical side of my brain would say "It is not YOU with the problem, you can't FORCE people to not be assholes." I have been treated poorly in one-on-one dating relationships (I was going to say "monogamous", but just because neither party is seriously involved with someone else doesn't mean the relationship is monogamous in nature) and I don't consider it something that I need to fix for the other people that might date that person someday.
I agree with that, which is why it baffles me that when points like this are made there are ALWAYS quite a few people (if I had any statistics on it, I'd venture to say the majority, but I don't) that come rushing to the defense of such hurtful practices as "necessary" or "a stepping stone" or "it just has to be this way" or "MY poly isn't YOUR poly".

Fine. It doesn't change the fact that such practices are hurtful to others. If people like it that way then fine. And yes, I won't be getting involved with people like that. For a long time, I thought that was my only choice in poly relationships. I'm very glad and relieved to have learned that this doesn't have to be the case.
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  #109  
Old 03-04-2010, 10:22 PM
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I think its all about learning really. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. I think its important to take a look at relationships when they don't work out and learn. Then move on and chalk it all up to experience and hope that those involved will learn to.
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  #110  
Old 03-04-2010, 10:26 PM
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I think its all about learning really. I think you hit the nail on the head with that. I think its important to take a look at relationships when they don't work out and learn. Then move on and chalk it all up to experience and hope that those involved will learn to.
It becomes about more when huge numbers of people jump to the defense of practices that are hurtful. And it becomes even more when the people who are hurt by such practices are continually silenced in poly communities and when poly communities tacitly condone such treatment. It's more common than one would expect.
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