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  #91  
Old 03-03-2010, 08:26 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I said "in some cases" Ceoli. I don't think people with kids shouldn't date, just that it is better, in my experience, for a child to be considered carefully and more so than an adult in someones life.
Again, I don't think that children should be considered more carefully than adults was ever in dispute. Even though you said "in some cases" I was responding to the generality of the statement and where it *could* lead. Is that allowed?
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  #92  
Old 03-03-2010, 08:32 PM
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Again, I don't think that children should be considered more carefully than adults was ever in dispute. Even though you said "in some cases" I was responding to the generality of the statement and where it *could* lead. Is that allowed?
I am not understanding your concern for the generality of what I say. What is your concern with it? Could explain further?
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  #93  
Old 03-03-2010, 09:23 PM
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I have met / heard people say* things to the effect that parenting should fit into their lifestyle instead of their lifestyle making accommodations for the parenting. It's as though they see parenting as an obstacle to be overcome and conquered, rather than a choice of "opportunity cost" (see Economics 101).

What it comes down to is that people need to be prepared to give up some things for a while, or for ever, in order to do right by the choice they made bringing an innocent person into existence. I constantly hear / read of parents saying how much "sacrifice" is involved in raising children, and how people who don't have children are "selfish". I do not think being "selfish" is inherently a bad thing, but when you have a kid but put your dating/sex/love life before the kid's needs and well-being, that is a "bad" form of selfishness.

So, while redpepper may be doing what's right by HER son and family, there ARE folks (some of whom may or may not be reading this) who put their own needs in higher priority than what their kids' best interests are.

Case in point: When I was about 13, my mother had plans to follow her MARRIED (not "poly") boyfriend to Florida (from New England) because he had a potential job-offer there. His wife and their two kids would have also moved with him. As it turned out, the job offer never materialized and my mother never actually TOLD me about it until one day I overheard her telling someone on the phone that "the move to Florida isn't happening after all". I confronted her about it and she said "If you didn't want to go, you could have stayed here and lived with your father". Well, not to be a jerk, but I can't stand my father in small doses, let alone go to live with him full-time (although HE would have LOVED to not have to pay the meager child-support that he was paying and to be able to tell everyone within earshot that his ex-wife abandoned their daughter to follow a married man out-of-state), and she knew that I prob'ly would have gone with her, but if I didn't LIKE it, she would have said "but you could have stayed with your father".

Now, the point is not "should people need permission from their underage kids in order to make a major decision". The POINT is that even "good" parents sometimes make decisions where their dating/romantic/sex lives are concerned that are not in their child's best interests... and for what? For an outsider who you don't know how long they'll be around or what kind of person they REALLY are until it's too late? Thankfully, it never got to that point (although my mother made a number of other foolish decisions regarding this man), and fortunately, this was not a factor in my not wanting to have children of my own, but if I HAD decided to have kids, I would pre-emptively not even consider following some man that was not committed to them (and to me) out of state and say to them "If you don't want to come, you can stay here and live with someone else." I'm sure I would have survived one way or the other, but I can't begin to explain how hurt and abandoned that made me feel, even though my mother always TOLD me that she loved me more than anyone else in her life including her (married) boyfriend. I believe that she did, but she was thinking with her vagina, not her head. Pfeh.

*not on this forum, in Real Life™
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  #94  
Old 03-03-2010, 10:25 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Y-girl, I think that post sums up how i feel very well.

I think we make choices and we need to accept the consequences (good and bad alike) of those choices.

When I chose to keep my first child instead of aborting her or giving her up for adoption, I in turn received consequences. SOME were WONDERFUL, some not so much. But I don't make a "new choice" in contradiction to the responsibilities and consequences that came with that first choice.

Too often we decide to have children and then we totally disregard them as though they don't matter in relationships/family-but the truth is if we are bringing these people around our children, then the child has SOME SORT of relationship with them as well.

Its a factor in divorce with adults as well. When you marry someone, obviously there is a relationship with you and them. But there are relationships built between them and other family members as well... if you divorce them for whatever reason-it's not your place **my opinion** to tell those other people that they have to end their relationship also.

My decision to end MY relationships doesn't necessarily mean that YOUR relationship with that person isn't still positive and healthy. It doesn't necessarily follow that you should have to end that relationships just because I don't want to have mine anymore.....

It's all related to me.

As far as heirarchies go-I still very strongly feel that if someone isn't important enough for me to respect and promote THEIR ongoing relationship with my children REGARDLESS of our sex-life, then they need not be my lover at all.
I can't see myself having a bf or gf that was "secondary", because to me that would mean that they were "disposable". But if I brought them into my children's lives, then I no longer have the ability to dispose of them completely... because it's not my place (barring abuse) to terminate another person's relationship against their will. Additionally I don't have a lot of time to spend with someone when my kids aren't around, at least ONE kid.

GG and I were talking (and laughing a little) about this one AGAIN last night. In our lives we've almost NEVER had a truly "free" moment. We always have one kid or another, usually more than one. That's just our life. I have kids, I'm surrounded by them, to love me he has to be around them too. To truly give his love to me, he has to be devoted to them as well...

(no offense intended) but like Ygirl-who says she doesn't want kids, I couldn't date her. My whole world is kids. We could be friends, but I couldn't be her lover. If I was, she'd essentially end up having kids and the responsibilities that go with that. As a friend, she could limit her contact with me to phone/internet and not be involved with the kids, but as a lover?
Hell I've never gotten to go on vacation without the kids with GG. I've never gotten to spend the night in a hotel room without the kids.
Maca was talking about how great it would be for GG and I(somewhat disgruntled) while he was gone for a week, because we'd have "a week alone". I laughed out loud. Seriously? We had our 2 year old, our 10 year old, our 18 year old (and her friends) as well as a friend and her 6 year old and 7 year old all damn week!!! Not to mention my sister. GG doesn't even have a DOOR (only 3 walls and a curtain) for a bedroom!!!!
Privacy?
As if, we don't even know what that IS.
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  #95  
Old 03-03-2010, 10:54 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I am not understanding your concern for the generality of what I say. What is your concern with it? Could explain further?
My point is that none of that is really in dispute. Of course children should be taken into high consideration for any decision a parent makes in life. Nobody is disputing that. But to try and prescribe life and relationships *before* any of those decisions are made to specifically prevent those decisions from having to be made shows a few things.
  • It shows a lack of trust in a partner making good and responsible choices.
  • It makes a relationship less flexible and able to weather change when it does come. And yes, change does come in one form or another.
  • It restricts relationships that probably could have grown in a healthy way that integrates into whatever structures you already have in place for fear of not being able to maintain that structure.
  • It's all generally based in fear, which I find is never a healthy way to grow or maintain any relationships. (maybe it works for some people, but I know that it doesn't work for me)

I'm sure people will say that this isn't the case for THEM and that they have very different reasons other than fear for having to maintain a prescribed hierarchy in their relationships. Usually the word "protect" comes into play (protecting finances, protecting home, protecting children, etc). I fail to see how a person would need to "protect" themselves or their loved ones against something they don't fear.

Again, if it works for you (the general you, not specifically you), more power to you. But it can be cruel to others. The disagreement seems to be as to whether that cruelty is necessary or not. I happen to think that it's not.
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  #96  
Old 03-03-2010, 11:42 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
(no offense intended) but like Ygirl-who says she doesn't want kids, I couldn't date her. My whole world is kids. We could be friends, but I couldn't be her lover. If I was, she'd essentially end up having kids and the responsibilities that go with that. As a friend, she could limit her contact with me to phone/internet and not be involved with the kids, but as a lover?

Heh, well... what can I say. No matter how hot you may be, I definitely don't want to be a parent-figure to your kids. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that were I "just a friend" that I want NOTHING to do with your kids. I DO have friends with kids... some of them could even be considered...BLAHK! It doesn't have to be all or nothing... I even have friends who identify as... CHRISTIANS!

Now I'll have to go and cleanse myself in the fire-and brimstone LOL!

Actually, today is our 7th anniversary and I am going out to dinner with my husband. Catch you later.
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  #97  
Old 03-03-2010, 11:49 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Happy 7th anniversary Y-girl!!



I hope you have a great night!

(I wasn't saying you COULDN'T be around my kids-but as a friend you could CHOOSE to be or not)

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  #98  
Old 03-04-2010, 07:16 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I think Derby was responding to someone elses thoughts on that last quote there Ceoli. I don't think the post she was responding to is there anymore. Could be wrong.
I don't know who Derby was responding to with that comment because I'm pretty sure that up till that point in the thread it had not been moderated and edited. It's pretty frustrating in situations like these where a person is making a point and continually meets replies that do not actually address the point made, but rather a huge misinterpretation of the point that has been repeatedly addressed in the thread before.

*Nobody* in this thread has suggested that a new partner should get equal say in what happens with other partners or with children or with family. What the new partner should get is equal say with their other partner about how *their* relationship develops. This is assuming that all people involved are reasonable adults with a reasonable grasp on their needs (such as person wanting to make sure their children have a stable family life or wanting to make sure their existing partner still feels secure and loved). The new partner also has needs and that should be negotiated between the two members of the relationship.

The point is, that if the person who is already partnered is a halfway decent person, there shouldn't be a need to set the rule that they be a halfway decent person to their existing commitments. They ALREADY have them in mind when exploring a new relationship, just like the new person ALREADY has that in mind as well. Why would I bother getting involved with someone who is acting according to someone else's prescription rather than what develops between us?
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  #99  
Old 03-04-2010, 08:06 AM
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I think I get what you are saying Ceoli. It's the prescription you are objecting to? Rather than a description of what could be... I'm not up on that terminology I must admit, even if you have explained it before, so bare with me... it just isn't language I use. So I'm trying here.

For the benefit of those who don't know the difference (such as myself) here is what I found on a this site. www.thefreedictionary.com

pre·scrip·tion
a. The act of establishing official rules, laws, or directions.
b. Something prescribed as a rule.

de·scrip·tion
1. The act, process, or technique of describing.
2. A statement or an account describing something.

I can see how what I say would be thought of as a prescription by these above definitions, but I assure you that was not the agenda before starting out on this poly family path that we find our selves in. Everything was always negotiable the whole time. There was a lot of waiting and seeing what came up and establishing what worked along the way... it was a given that anyone who came into our lives would have to be okay with our kid and the responsibility we have to him. It still is. It isn't possible to be available whenever or to have a conversation around him that doesn't revolve around his needs in some way.

I would suggest that anyone wanting to date someone with a child take that into consideration... it isn't a prescription, it just is. Those little people, by their very nature, are demanding. They are the captains of the ship in many ways and within certain limits, mixed with the whole having to be responsible for them bit.

What we have created and continue to create is a process... sure their are rules... if you are mean to my kid I will break your neck is one of them for instance Anyone who has kids in their lives will know the basic rules in this way.

Tonight was a prime example of what it means to have a child.
I got a call from Polynerdist telling me that my boys principle had called him to tell him that our boy had hit another child. Our boy has been struggling lately and we have been working hard to get at the bottom of it all... he was doing so well and then this came along today. I was on my way to meet Mono at the time to grab a coffee and go for a walk. I called him when I got off the phone and told him we had to cancel so I could go and get the boy and take him home for a long talk. I asked if Mono wanted to come and talk to him too. My boy admires and respects Mono and often his insight is helpful. So, by the time I got home, Mono had made coffee and greeted a crying child at the door with a concerned look on his face. We sat and had a snack and drank coffee while we talked it all out for a good two hours. In the mean time, nerdist had come home and we all supported the boy who sobbed in our arms. He was feeling really badly about himself.

This scenario was not an option in my mind. There was no rule that we need to support our child and help him figure out what is going on for him. It's our responsibility and job. Just as it's my responsibility to do my job at work. I signed up for it and I will do the job to the best of my ability. There is no other option. if this sounds prescriptive then I don't know what to tell you.

Now where Mono is concerned is that he chose to sign up for this. Not only has has signed up for the fact that I have to drop plans with him if my boy needs me, but he took on the addition of actually helping him out also. That was not a rule I had. I asked that he and all my partners consider the fact that I have a responsibility and that that comes first... That is all I ask of anyone in my life. The rest is up to them...

Now Mono has committed to my child. A selfless act that makes me love him all the more. He must be crazy

I would suggest that if anyone wants to date someone that has a child that they think hard about how much involvement they want to have in that child's life as a child needs stability and reassurance that the adults around them are not going to abandon them. It takes complete selflessness to be close to a child and stick with them regardless. I can totally understand why a potential partner would not want to sign up for that or would limit their presence in a persons life if their was a child involved. I would not be insulted if someone were to back away from me on the grounds that I have a child. I would prefer that up front than if someone were to come into my life and start assuming that they have rights to attention I can't give them because I give it too my child. I don't think I have ever had to say to a potential partner, "okay, look, I have a child, soooo... these are the rules around that." I just take it as a given. I would welcome them into our fold as they feel it fits them. If anything I am a tad apologetic. It seems to be more of a situation of me feeling like I am not good enough for potential partners to be with because I have a child, not that I am being all demanding about the rules around my having a child. If that makes sense.
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  #100  
Old 03-04-2010, 06:28 PM
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If anything I am a tad apologetic. It seems to be more of a situation of me feeling like I am not good enough for potential partners to be with because I have a child, not that I am being all demanding about the rules around my having a child. If that makes sense.
Really? This surprises me, actually, redpepper. If anything, I would think this is a bonus. Definitely not something to apologize about. Wanting to date you when you have a kid gives someone the opportunity to have a kid in their life.
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