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  #61  
Old 09-11-2013, 03:30 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Default *More...so what is the issue?

So, what's the issue!?

From my point there is no issue, only a failure at communication. But, since I failed at it twice I think I might benefit from some outside input.

So, I am entirely new to the whole “kinky” scene. From my standpoint – I am exploring the possibilities but I don't know the etiquette, so I am cautious. (I know that some people see poly as inherently kinky but it doesn't feel that way to me...I've ID'd as poly for decades...it seems vanilla at this point. “Kinky” still means “stuff I don't do” - i.e. if I do it it then in is just “regular” stuff.)

But...I am interested in this rope-play/bondage thing. So I ask if I can watch, I get invited to participate a little, I come back for a little more. This is HOT stuff!

So, I am trying to convey to Dude what I have learned about myself and my reactions to this exposure:

I really liked the “rope” part...but I had a negative reaction to the guy (dude doing the tying) telling me what I could and could not do with “his” girl. (“Not on the lips.”) Now, don't get me wrong – I had no inclination, at all, in any way, to over-ride this or press any boundaries in this case. I was asking for an invitation to THEIR party and have NO say in how they structure their interactions. But, MY personal preference, (as a complete newbie and interloper) would be to hear any restrictions from the mouth of the person that I am interacting with directly. (i.e. if this was a negotiated, on-going “thing” and not a random one-off event).

Dude basically went off on me and told me that I am a horrible person. That that could never happen within the boundaries of a D/s dynamic and that she CAN'T be the one to tell me what the boundaries are – and that I am asking someone to break their contract by even communicating with me. Whoa, Nelly! From my perspective, I am simply observing my reactions and what my preferences would be. I really don't understand where the vehemence is coming from.

I talked to my girl, VV, and she understood where I was coming from. So I tried again with Dude, same response. So, I see a couple of possibilities here – a.) other people are allowed to have their preferences but I am NOT (which seems weird) b.) there are unbreakable tenets of BDSM of which I am unaware (which is entirely possible – but negotiation would seem to be one of them) c.) Dude is familiar with a model of BDSM that is not universal (which seems the most likely explanation to me – seeing as how he was exposed to the lifestyle without being a part of it, per se)

Comments welcome. (I don't ever want to upset someone's dynamic, but I do want to be able to express my own comfort levels/preferences...is there a way to do both...or should I just bow out of the whole "kinky" scene now before I upset someone?)

JaneQ
__________________
Me: poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" Vee-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (together 21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (together 3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs on this site:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe

Last edited by JaneQSmythe; 09-11-2013 at 03:35 AM.
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  #62  
Old 09-11-2013, 10:23 AM
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fuchka fuchka is offline
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Okay, well, I am not a kink scenester as such, I'm more into fucking about at home, but my take:

You absolutely need to know your preferences, and be able to vocalise them. Yes, negotiation is a basic tenet

Thinking of Dude's reaction, though... Sometimes I get disproportionately righteous in response to someone nudging a precious thing that I feel is generally misunderstood. I wonder if it's the same here for Dude.

Some people's dynamics definitely would mean that you could not hear boundaries directly from a sub. This challenges the social convention of strength / independence as being able to speak up for yourself. It can make people uncomfortable, and uncertain of a sub's agency.

While you were only expressing your comfort levels and possible boundaries, sometimes these boundaries themselves can trigger a strong response from others, when the boundaries seem to be based on a misunderstanding. Does that make sense?

You're saying: this made me uncomfortable.

Dude may be reacting how he is because he thinks: what's making you uncomfortable about this? Do you misunderstand how these dynamics can work? Do you not get how she can consent to this, how she can be okay with the Dom speaking for her? i.e. is your discomfort because you misjudge the situation?

I'm not saying he's right, and obviously I have no idea why he's reacting the way he is. But... it could be that, maybe.
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  #63  
Old 09-11-2013, 10:27 AM
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fuchka fuchka is offline
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At some point, the bar had to close and MrS managed to herd my drunken grinning self to the car and get me home (at which point he calls Dude to report that made a drunken ass out of myself but he managed to get 'McDrunky-Molests-a-lot' home in one piece...and that I had a really good time.)
This cracked me up, seriously.

I've had my share of situations where I've had to be looked after... It's funny when I hear my partners commiserate over me being drunkenly belligerent or similar.

'McDrunky-Molests-a-lot' is gold.
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  #64  
Old 09-11-2013, 10:51 AM
london london is offline
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so MrClean had to step in as my “minder”/chauffer/chaperone/boy toy. Are there “rules”? Not really. His job is to see to it that I: a.) don't get arrested, b.) don't get raped, and c.) only go home with him
See here, what would you expect him to do if things did cross a line? Would he have spoken for you?

See, if I went somewhere with my Daddy and was playing with other people, I'd want to stay in sub mode so he would be the one to stop the Great Unwashed clawing at me. Our dynamic means that he says what goes, especially when we are together, so he would be the one to enforce my boundaries. I'd prefer that though I would speak up if he didn't.

The thing about power exchanges is that it means one person does belong, is answerable, to the other. She isn't 'his' girl, she is his girl. If that concept makes you uncomfortable than yes, keep it vanilla or with unattached people. That's not to say everyone expresses their dynamic in that way, but what happened there really isn't unusual or particularly full on.
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  #65  
Old 09-11-2013, 01:07 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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If you are digging the rope -- look up a dungeon and take a rope class. Learn to do it safely. It can be fun. And remember... like with anything else... "my rope style is not your rope style."

To me? You did fine. You asked permission, you do realize your joined THEIR already in progress scene.

You don't know what they agreed to as the boundaries for that scene, and if the D/s overtones was for that scene only or a 24/7 arrangement or what.

I see that you prefer to know that stuff from the person's mouth directly, but the scene was already in progress. Maybe they didn't want to stop the mental flow. Or maybe he knows something you don't -- like kissing on the lips when she's in subspace wigs her out?

Next time if you want to honor your own preferences... you negotiate that up front before the scene starts with the players if you are going to participate. But for stumbling in on someone else's thing being played out in a "public space" you asked permission and they could have said yes/no to you.

Dude's response? Well, it seemed to push his buttons some how.

You could apologize for pushing his buttons inadvertently.
You could ask him to apologize to YOU for attacking your character and telling you that you are horrible rather than giving you feedback on your behavior. (That was not inadvertent.)
You could ask him if he's willing to clarify how your behavior was wrong.
Could remind him you ARE allowed to have your own preferences -- just like he gets to have his. You are allowed to discover you HAVE some preferences in this new world in these new situations. Could ask how you having preferences of your own is preventing him from having his preferences?

Or you could let it go. (Or could do something else I cannot think of right now.)

Maybe Dude's preferences/experiences frown on "topping from the bottom" once a scene is in progress. And the sub in this case speaking up falls in that zone to him? So your stating your preferences is pushing that button?

On the flip side... some people LIKE topping from the bottom. *shrug*

Or maybe he felt judged or triggered by HOW you expressed your preference? Not so much that you have one, but HOW you shared it with him? Only he knows. :/

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-11-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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  #66  
Old 09-12-2013, 04:50 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Originally Posted by london View Post
See here, what would you expect him to do if things did cross a line? Would he have spoken for you?
Not exactly sure where you are going with this but, yes, if things were heading to "out of hand" then he most certainly would have spoken for me - we are friends. Friends help keep friends from getting into trouble/making bad mistakes.

Ultimately, I am responsible for my own behavior. BUT, if I make a mistake in judgement and get myself into a situation where I am too fucked up to be responsible for myself (or too physically weak/small to extricate myself from a situation) then he, as my friend, would do what it took to keep me safe (as I would do the same for him - except that I am not physically strong enough to toss him over my shoulder and put him in the car and drive him home).

Having a "minder" is a back-up plan in case I make a mistake. (Although, to be honest, as a friend-not-partner, it would be really rude of me to put him in this position - so I am likely to be a LOT more careful than if I was with MrS or Dude.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
See, if I went somewhere with my Daddy and was playing with other people, I'd want to stay in sub mode so he would be the one to stop the Great Unwashed clawing at me. Our dynamic means that he says what goes, especially when we are together, so he would be the one to enforce my boundaries. I'd prefer that though I would speak up if he didn't.

The thing about power exchanges is that it means one person does belong, is answerable, to the other. She isn't 'his' girl, she is his girl.... That's not to say everyone expresses their dynamic in that way, but what happened there really isn't unusual or particularly full on.
And this is the type of thing that I am observing and learning from. I am also noticing what my reaction is to these situations and what my preferences are. Which is why I think that this not "unusual or particularly full on" events are a good introduction for people that are just looking into kink for the first time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
If that concept makes you uncomfortable than yes, keep it vanilla or with unattached people.
And my point is that I didn't know it would make me uncomfortable until I was presented with the situation (since I have no a priori objection on a theoretical level). And is my discomfort because this is all new or because I have a fundamental issue because of underlying assumptions that I have about how relationships and sexuality work? For me, going to these "soft kink" "newbie friendly" events is a way to understand both the lifestyle and my responses.

So I went, I observed, I dipped my toes in the water and I had a little insight into myself. Which I wanted to discuss with my partner. Who had a reaction that felt out of proportion to what I was saying - which puzzled me.

Everyone's responses have been helpful in helping me gain new perspective.
Thank you.

JaneQ
__________________
Me: poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" Vee-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (together 21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (together 3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs on this site:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe
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  #67  
Old 09-12-2013, 08:33 AM
london london is offline
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Not exactly sure where you are going with this but, yes, if things were heading to "out of hand" then he most certainly would have spoken for me - we are friends. Friends help keep friends from getting into trouble/making bad mistakes.
So why did it unsettle you that he was speaking for her? Your friend/minder/boytoy would have spoken up for you if someone else was doing things you would have taken objection to, so why was it different with this guy and his girl?


Quote:
o me? You did fine. You asked permission, you do realize your joined THEIR already in progress scene.

You don't know what they agreed to as the boundaries for that scene, and if the D/s overtones was for that scene only or a 24/7 arrangement or what.

I see that you prefer to know that stuff from the person's mouth directly, but the scene was already in progress. Maybe they didn't want to stop the mental flow. Or maybe he knows something you don't -- like kissing on the lips when she's in subspace wigs her out?

Next time if you want to honor your own preferences... you negotiate that up front before the scene starts with the players if you are going to participate. But for stumbling in on someone else's thing being played out in a "public space" you asked permission and they could have said yes/no to you.
Also this ^^
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  #68  
Old 09-12-2013, 02:22 PM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Originally Posted by london View Post
So why did it unsettle you that he was speaking for her? Your friend/minder/boytoy would have spoken up for you if someone else was doing things you would have taken objection to, so why was it different with this guy and his girl?
Ah...now I see the disconnect. My minder is there to protect me from my own bad decisions, and only secondarily, and in extreme cases, from other people. As my friend/minder, MrClean would have spoken TO ME if MY behavior was getting out of control in terms of getting arrested/raped/absconded with - i.e. I decided to do a strip tease down mainstreet, follow people into dark alleys or accompany people into panel vans.

He would have taken me aside and reminded me that I was drunk and not using my best judgement and that he had agreed to help me be safe for the evening and then convinced me that it was time to go home. If someone ELSE was doing something that I would have taken objection to - I would have been telling them off MYSELF and he would only step in if they were ignoring my objections or preventing him from doing his "friend-job" of keeping me safe (i.e. preventing him from talking to me/convincing me to go home). The only time that he would have "spoken up for me" directly is if I was actually incapacitated (i.e. passed out drunk and someone was messing with me).

Kind of like a "Living Will" - the clause only kicks in if someone is actually incapable of speaking for themselves. The "minder" role is a safety-net of last resort - for if I screw up and let myself go too far. Under usual circumstances the "minder" role never comes into play and he would just be the "designated driver".

JaneQ
__________________
Me: poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" Vee-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (together 21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (together 3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs on this site:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe
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  #69  
Old 09-13-2013, 09:14 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default Might want to be extremely cautious

Not a good idea to be involved with people you don't know very well and fully trust. Never is it a good idea to become involved in any scene without talking directly to all involved or being present when his sub is explicitly agreeing to exactly what is to be done and even then take no part what-so-ever unless you know them very well.

If you aren't careful it could be the hardest lesson you will ever learn, always be suspicious of anyone who lets you be a part of any restraint scenes without knowing you very well, as it is likely they will teach you a lesson in making sure you took every precaution necessary to ensure you did have consent and that it was desired, blackmail is not fun and can turn your life into a living hell

I wouldn't even watch, unless I was close friends with all participants
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  #70  
Old 09-13-2013, 12:22 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Default BDSM as the Star Trek Mirror Universe? Well, Kinda

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaneQSmythe View Post
I really liked the “rope” part...but I had a negative reaction to the guy (dude doing the tying) telling me what I could and could not do with “his” girl. (“Not on the lips.”) Now, don't get me wrong – I had no inclination, at all, in any way, to over-ride this or press any boundaries in this case. I was asking for an invitation to THEIR party and have NO say in how they structure their interactions. But, MY personal preference, (as a complete newbie and interloper) would be to hear any restrictions from the mouth of the person that I am interacting with directly. (i.e. if this was a negotiated, on-going “thing” and not a random one-off event).

Dude basically went off on me and told me that I am a horrible person. That that could never happen within the boundaries of a D/s dynamic and that she CAN'T be the one to tell me what the boundaries are – and that I am asking someone to break their contract by even communicating with me. Whoa, Nelly! From my perspective, I am simply observing my reactions and what my preferences would be. I really don't understand where the vehemence is coming from.
BDSM is disconcerting. It is especially so when new to it at least in my experience. There is SO MUCH in BDSM that I would not want to be around if it appeared in a non-BDSM context. For example, I know folks who are in Master/Slave relationships. I find M/s disturbing. It is not something I can wrap my head around. I fundamentally do not get why anyone would give up that much control over their life - or accept that level of control over someone else. But the people I know in M/s relationships, it was freely chosen, and they are happy. I intensely dislike humiliation scenes. I do not understand why someone would want that, would find it cathartic and maybe even hot. But people do.

BDSM is not exactly 'opposite land' to mainstream, everyday life. Generally, what is socially appropriate in everyday life works just fine in BDSM contexts. For me, it was weird, as an adult, independent, woman to find that some women agree to be in a relationship where she cannot speak for herself in some contexts. (And some men and transfolk do so too.) I am used to that dynamic now, but it still disturbs me.

In my little corner of the kinky universe, I talk to whoever I want to talk to, scene with, etc. They are responsible for telling me if their agreements are such that I need to speak with their Domme, Dom, Master, etc. It's not my job to magically discern their agreements. It is my job to respect those agreements once I am aware of them, even if I find them stupid or odd.

The one exception to the 'talk to who I want to talk to' rule is if someone is in the middle of a scene - similar to your situation. I don't interrupt or impinge on scenes - that is bad form wherever you go in BDSM land! But if invited, or had some situation where I had to interact with people in a scene, I don't talk to the person who is being acted upon - the bottom, or sub. I would talk to the person running the scene, the top, or dominant. One reason is that it is simply polite to direct questions to the 'one in charge' in this context. The other reason is that bottoms or subs may be in subspace. Subspace is an altered state. People in subspace may not be able or want to communicate. Talking to someone else besides the top may jerk them out of subspace, which is no fun and can be disconcerting on its own too. So your directing questions to the sub, while appropriate in any other context, may have impinged on her subspace and thus changed the experience for her.

I have no way of knowing if this is true. Don't feel guilty or bad or that you did anything wrong. There is no way to know this stuff before experiencing it. The time to ask about restrictions directly from the sub (and dom too) is before the scene, when the scene is being negotiated. But you were drawn into a scene after it began, after their negotiations were done. It happens, it can be hot, but it's not 'best practice' so to speak. Again, no harm, no foul - just something to know.

Generally, again speaking from my own limited experiences, people are forgiving of new people learning. After all, everyone was new once, even the domliest doms from Ye Leather Olde Guard.

As for Dude, no idea. When I have an experience where my reaction is outsized and overly vehement to the situation - which happens more than I like - it's usually not about the situation or even the other person. There is something going on internally. Maybe Dude is having something similar go on?
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