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  #11  
Old 08-30-2013, 10:48 PM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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Thanks everybody, I definitely need to 'find my own voice' in all this. I'm just searching and collecting data but I'm pretty much on information overload at this point (not that it's gonna stop me lol).

I just needed to hear some stronger mature masculine perspectives on polyamory for a minute. So many of the people I've met from my area have been women or naturally more submissive/passive guys. I really need to surf around this board a little more and read posts from the guys on how polyamory came into their lives and what it means to them. I've been very mono hardwired all my life and seeing as this has come about from the outside my systems have perceived it as a 'threat' in a lot if ways, and though I think I've made good progress I can still polarize the situation in my mind very easily. I'm so sick of being distraught over this. I want to move beyond it.
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  #12  
Old 08-30-2013, 11:23 PM
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CreativeDoll CreativeDoll is offline
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Default I think you may be a bit misguided

As someone who studied evolutionary psychology in university I think you're rather misguided. Sounds to me like you're taking pop psychology advice from people who don't know what they're talking about. People were more or less poly, or at least serial monogamists back in the day. The males with the most women were aggressive, and usually pretty rapey. Not something to emulate in a civilized society.

Dating isn't about alpha, or beta, or any of that crap. Its about compatibility and chemistry. You don't need to control your partner, they deserve their autonomy.

If you aren't happy with the relationship style she needs to be happy, that's a barrier to compatibility.

Personally I hate the "being nice is bad, I should be a controlling dick if I want to be successful with women" attitude. It's disrespectful, and those who advise such behavior are usually patriarchial, sexist, and angry at women who have scorned them in the past.

My suggestion: Drop all the pick up artist crap, and just do what works for you. If this relationship isn't working, it's time to consider changing it or moving on. There is no such thing as "game" just men that can either attract women by being awesome, and those who brow beat women with low self esteem into doing what they say.

(also, in terms of poly being a female agenda, that's pretty silly considering how many men are polyamorous, and were the ones to bring it up, or initiate it. It's not a thing that belongs to any one gender.)
__________________
Me - Female, heteroflexable, 23
N - My fiancee - Male, straight, 24
A - My boyfriend - Male, straight, 23

Last edited by CreativeDoll; 08-30-2013 at 11:29 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2013, 02:12 AM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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Well, with regards to what I said earlier about a small particular sample of the male dating communities voiced opinions on polyamory, I was using it as an example to elucidate some of the misunderstandings that exist out there with regard to polyamory, but that such sentiments can definitely provoke the worst fears in someone who's having a very difficult transition into attempting this lifestyle.

But I think that there's a lot of vitriol towards that community as well that is based on an equal amount of misunderstanding (and of course people like me bandying about a couple of individuals opinions as representative doesn't help matters admittedly). Of course there are tons of douche bags out there active in that community, but I've found that in general there are a lot of good guys. When they speak about 'game' or 'inner game' and learning how to 'build attraction' what many of them are referring to is teaching men how to be more confidant in themselves, how to become aware of their various feelings and psychological components and to learn more effective methods of developing self awareness and understanding. They work at teaching guys how to become more effective communicators, and how to relax and be themselves in a more authentic and natural way. Of course there are guys out there teaching routines and mind tricks, but that stuff is just on a surface level. The real meat of the matter is becoming more aware of and comfortable with who you are in your internal and external landscape, and in doing so to be empowered to make more informed choices about the type of person you want to be, and the types of qualities you would like to lean into versus ones that are causing you problems in your life.

So in that sense the authentic people in the male dating/pua (hate that term as well) community are about teaching men to better themselves and to cultivate greater self awareness and self mastery. I don't often know if woman are aware how taboo it is for men to talk about a lot of this stuff with their friends, family, and other male figures in each others day to day lives. At best we're taught to do so in codified ways that often side step real intimacy and vulnerability in communicating about and sharing our inner experience, our fears, desires, insecurities, emotional landscape, and the like. We're taught, in our own codified male way, a version of "it's just not polite to discuss, my dear". I've found it interesting myself to investigate the arena and to observe situations where men are encouraged to talk about their inner landscapes in a way that's affirming and revealing. Overall net I think some of it has a very positive upside.

Of course there's just as much (probably more) junk out there on that circuit, but I just felt like I needed to stand up a little and voice an alternative view with regard to some of those communities.

Also, I know a lot of people like to talk about 'free will' and rising above our animal nature, but we are human beings living a human life that has evolved in a very particular way. In general we are very much creatures of habit and conditioning. If you look at the Mahayana Buddhist meditations on the male and female form, they analyze first the whole opposite sex form and sense the attraction towards it; they then begin breaking the body down to its constituent pieces and sensing the attraction towards them; and so on and so on further down the chain looking at pores, eyeballs, retinas etc. The practice is designed to reveal to early students that there's nothing 'innately' attractive in the human form per se, but that as humans we have evolved and been condition to see it as such in order to secure the continuation of life for the species. In many respects sex and attraction are literally the power of the universe's impulse to exist and continue. It has to be that attractive, that powerful, that ingrained in order for life to persist. It's only very recently, as civilization has evolved to the point where we can begin to unhinge our thinking from base survival issues, that we can begin to explore more nuanced proclivities in relation to our attraction towards one another. But I don't think we should be fooled into thinking that many of the characteristics and traits we gravitate towards in a mate aren't based on our hard wired unconscious evaluation of them as a provider, a lover, their potential genetic qualities both physical and demonstrated through decision making, etc. This idea that somehow we're all free people out here just deciding on a whim what we feel we are attracted to is a bit naive I think. Did you know that scientific studies show that women are unconsciously more attracted to a particular set of traits during the time of ovulation then they are during the rest of the month? It's been looked at time and time again. We still evaluate our mates largely on an unconscious and subconscious level. The conscious stuff is really mostly tip of the iceberg imo.

Anyhow, just some more thoughts. Much of the sharing here in this thread has been really positive for me and has helped sort of crack me out of this mode of (temporarily, over the past couple of weeks) analyzing polyamory from a perspective of gender wars/bias/whatever. I agree that a lot of the beta/alpha/omega stuff can be over thought. But I also know that I have behaviors that stifle me in my life, and others that I find rewarding, but because of my conditioning if I don't pay attention to what I'm choosing and simply go with the 'path of least resistance' I'm often acting out of inherited conditioning in ways that are counter productive for my own happiness!

Ok, I'm obviously trending towards hyper analysis again so I'll finish here. My heads gonna pop. I'm gonna try and let go and just be me for a little while.

Last edited by JacobJT; 08-31-2013 at 02:28 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2013, 03:03 AM
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Emm Emm is offline
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Stop reading MRA and PUA crap. Relationships shouldn't be an adversarial thing unless that's specifically what you're looking for. If you start treating yourself and others as individuals half your problems will disappear.
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2013, 03:19 AM
bookbug bookbug is offline
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So yes, during the 3 - 4 days of the month that women are ovulating they can become more attracted to excessively masculine men. Guess what? It might be more important to look at which type of men women are more attracted to the the other 27 days. Studies have shown, it's the more gentle guys then.
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  #16  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:00 AM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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I was merely using the ovulation window as an example of the fact that our desires and attractions are often steered by many unconscious processes, not really trying to make a specific point about the fact.

I don't see what's so sacreligious about admitting that we are creatures that operate within a conditioned context. It doesn't mean that we can't and don't make choices, just that those choices exist within a context created by our human condition and conditioning. I guess that's kind of scary to admit for some people. For me it's like observing an interesting truth and finding it fascinating. *shrugs*
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  #17  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:15 AM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobJT View Post
Thanks everybody, I definitely need to 'find my own voice' in all this. I'm just searching and collecting data but I'm pretty much on information overload at this point (not that it's gonna stop me lol).

I just needed to hear some stronger mature masculine perspectives on polyamory for a minute. So many of the people I've met from my area have been women or naturally more submissive/passive guys. I really need to surf around this board a little more and read posts from the guys on how polyamory came into their lives and what it means to them. I've been very mono hardwired all my life and seeing as this has come about from the outside my systems have perceived it as a 'threat' in a lot if ways, and though I think I've made good progress I can still polarize the situation in my mind very easily. I'm so sick of being distraught over this. I want to move beyond it.
In this post is some examples of how that school of thought can handicap your reason.
You are putting people into type slots when weighing the value of their input and deciding who can give you more useful advise based on gender. You state you are not exposed enough to wise and manly folk. Who you have heard from most is women and submissive men. It comes off a bit like Team Women and Wuss guys VS Team Real Men. This suggests a measure of invalidation of the words of the people around you unless they fit a particular arch type you wish to emulate. It also suggests that the experiences of others who, in your perception, don't fit that arch type can lend you little aid.
Maybe its the wish to solve this and be over it? I can get that. It took me 20 years and 10 relationships to get from unquestioningly mono to contentedly poly. Go easy on yourself! Find some things you like to do that have nothing to do with this stuff. Learn something you've always wanted to study that has nothing to do with this stuff. Get away from it now and then when it starts spinning your head up.
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  #18  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:24 AM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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Thanks Vinccenzo. Sorry if I came off that way, these women and men have been invaluable to me! I just meant that the latter group, more 'manly men' were underrepresented in the people I've consulted, and I could use some weigh in from those voices as well! I just felt like I needed to hear some input from that perspective as it had been missing from the collective voice in my world.
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  #19  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:47 AM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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As for getting away from it, that's hard. I've been obsessively focused on it ever since the girl broached the subject. At first trying to find out everything about it, then trying to find out if I could even touch it with a ten foot pole, and now into first real world steps and trying to figure out how to deal with it. It's driven me half mad. I'm sick, run down, and in a bout of insomnia. It sucks and I hate it, fxck. I wish I knew how to put it down! But things keep coming up in the real world that serve as reminders. Her having some contact w new guy, poly friends checking in to see how I'm doing, outside interests that I have flirted with pursuing me. Sometimes I feel like I've opened pandora's box and my head's spinning! I can't freakin wait till this all settles down a bit, I don't know how much more I can take before either I come to at least some kind of initial emotional resolution or am forced to just shut everything down for my emotional well being. I'm really hoping for the former!!!
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  #20  
Old 08-31-2013, 03:30 PM
kkxvlv kkxvlv is offline
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Jacob I've felt for you and was happy to see your update so I'm going to try to ignore the poly female agenda stuff and suggest what I would say otherwise.

I'd say a mistake you're making isn't whether letting her date others makes you a good guy or a wuss but rather that you think you're "letting" her at all. Whether she is monogamous or not isn't your decision to make. Whether you want to continue to be with her while she pursues polyamory is the only choice you've got.

Is it possible for you to not try to not rush to judgement right now? There is so much judgement and grasping for explanations in your posts. You've said you want to "try." So maybe you could set a period of time that you aren't going to constantly be trying to determine if poly is good or bad, right or wrong, possible or impossible for you. You don't need to decide what kind of man it makes you. Try just living without making a judgement call. She goes on a date and you feel sad. That's it, it's just how you feel. It doesn't MEAN anything. It doesn't mean you can't do it, or you're a being a doormat, or you're being a great guy, it just means you have a feeling and you've taken note of it for later. Maybe if you just let your feelings be feelings and stop trying to figure out the answers for awhile you'll be able to look back on the experiences you've gathered and make those calls.

Last edited by kkxvlv; 08-31-2013 at 03:35 PM. Reason: spelling
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