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  #31  
Old 08-20-2013, 06:29 AM
northhome northhome is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Having honest and emotionally neutral discussion is a good way to do it - in my relationships it is one of the primary things that winds me up (in the best way possible). I would never call that "negotiation".

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the poetic phrasing "fabric that holds the relationship together" but I suspect this might be what we are disagreeing about.
I'm referring to the fact that every relationship has an underlying set of agreements, assumptions and expectations whether spoken or unspoken. This is the "fabric". When or more parties want to change any of these it can happen either unilaterally - "I'm going to take a lover" - or consensually - "What about opening up the relationship?". It is the latter process that may require the skills I am referring to.

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I have to tell you, every time you flash your resume I laugh.
I'm delighted to be able to provide you with a source of amusement.

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I get why you do it, because you want to explain where your opinion is coming from - but arguments from authority are often going to cause problems with people who are aware of the tactic.
Ah, thanks for the heads-up. As I come from a collegiate, rather than adversarial tradition, I often miss the fact that people can ascribe motives incorrectly. Personally I am very interested in knowing where information comes from, and I sometimes mistakenly assume others have the same curiosity. Although opinions can be interesting, I often discount them until I know the person's background.

"I'm sure I can fly a 757" is great, but I'd prefer to see the licence. I know, I'm a bit of a distrustful type...

Simple solution - I can wait until someone asks where my input comes from rather than volunteering it. No problem.

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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
What we don't agree on (as far as I can tell) is that this exposure to new ideas and personal expectations breeds some kind of direct change, as if all a person needs to correct their broken thought processes is for someone to clearly and constructively say "that thought process is broken and here is why".
Rational understanding can be a beginning to change but only real experience and application can effect fundamental shifts in my experience. Some people like to think things through first, and then act. Others do the opposite. Vive la différence!


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It is probably because I find personal growth to be a personal journey - not a group journey.
I would have thought that was self-evident.

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Clear communication is good, but I think it is only a very small part of a relationship between adults... contrary to the current popular belief.
I agree with you completely. The topic however was about relationship breakdowns and what causes them, and poor communication is a primary culprit in many of them. The reasons for the poor communication are of course myriad, and most of them are not rational.
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Last edited by northhome; 08-20-2013 at 06:34 AM.
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  #32  
Old 08-20-2013, 02:04 PM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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Originally Posted by northhome View Post
As I come from a collegiate, rather than adversarial tradition, I often miss the fact that people can ascribe motives incorrectly. Personally I am very interested in knowing where information comes from, and I sometimes mistakenly assume others have the same curiosity. Although opinions can be interesting, I often discount them until I know the person's background.
This is a discussion forum on the world wide webernets. That being the case, someone telling me they are an expert for some reason or another is what I generally discount. For me, it's when a person makes sound assertions with clear and reasonable rationalizations to support them that I actually give their opinions weight.

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I agree with you completely. The topic however was about relationship breakdowns and what causes them, and poor communication is a primary culprit in many of them. The reasons for the poor communication are of course myriad, and most of them are not rational.
I don't see how you agree with me completely if you think what I said was not related to the topic. It actually suggests that you and I are not connecting on this discussion at all... a communication breakdown.

Dag made a point that the "one penis policy" and other controlling rules are the cause of most of these breakdowns.

You disagreed and said that poor communication was the cause of relationship breakdowns.

While I don't disagree that communication styles will certainly have an impact on a relationship - if the relationship is founded on broken assumptions that communication merely decides the *when*, not the *if*. I maintain that it is a broken sense of how people should relate to each other on a fundamental level which is the problem, not how well they articulate how the other person should behave. The instinct for many seems to be regulation, control, supervision, restriction, instead of independence, courtesy, and personal accountability. That if people would concern themselves with their own happiness and not with how to control their fellows that they might actually be happier.

Communicate all you want, but if the point of this communication isn't to cast off these managerial ideals of relationships - most of the time I think it's better to just to save your breath
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  #33  
Old 08-20-2013, 05:35 PM
Squashking Squashking is offline
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Originally Posted by Dagferi View Post
The reasons why in my opinion so many poly relationship fail can be summed up by "too many cooks spoil the soup."

Too many have people meddling in relationships that are not their own. My husband has no say what so ever in my relationship with Murf. Just like Murf has no say in what goes on between Butch and I.
Dagferi... yes I agree totally.

Our quad came up with a rule from the beginning which we still use religiously... If anyone has a problem which involves the group they are required to SPEAK UP! It sounds simple but its not always easy to upset the apple cart and say something. Problems happened when we could tell someone was having a hard time and spent hours amongst ourselves speculating what the problem may be... which always tends to manufacture other problems... yes, very confusing!

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  #34  
Old 08-20-2013, 05:37 PM
northhome northhome is offline
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That being the case, someone telling me they are an expert for some reason or another is what I generally discount.
Fair enough, and I do the same. Since I never claimed to be an expert this comment however is outside the scope of our current conversation.

What I have done, from time to time, is point out that some of my assertions are backed up by data. I've understood now that you, and some others, find this not to be useful information and if I do this it seems to trigger some issues for some people.

My apologies if this is the case for you, and I've made a note to only provide background data in future if requested. Thank you for your feedback - I've found this conversation most interesting and I share with you the sense of amusement it engenders.

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For me, it's when a person makes sound assertions with clear and reasonable rationalizations to support them that I actually give their opinions weight.
Here, too, we agree. If I see a consistent pattern of sound assertions then I become curious as to where they have obtained this knowledge, and often delve deeper. Since you often provide trenchant and concise responses to people I would be curious to know more of what has informed your opinions.

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Dag made a point that the "one penis policy" and other controlling rules are the cause of most of these breakdowns.
What I was responding to was her comment:

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The reasons why in my opinion so many poly relationship fail can be summed up by "too many cooks spoil the soup."

Too many have people meddling in relationships that are not their own.
I was simply sharing that this is not what I have seen as the direct cause of the failures. However your point:

Quote:
I maintain that it is a broken sense of how people should relate to each other on a fundamental level which is the problem, not how well they articulate how the other person should behave.
is an excellent one. I do not think we are talking at cross-purposes at all. I have observed the direct cause of the breakdown (the engine blew up) and you are looking for the underlying reason (it wasn't serviced correctly or worse, was poorly designed).

If someone has a controlling style, communicates this clearly, and all the partners agree to it and the relationship style it entails - well, that's their choice. Not my cup of tea, and I certainly agree that creating relationships that free rather than constrict people is much healthier.
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Last edited by northhome; 08-20-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-30-2013, 03:32 AM
1of4 1of4 is offline
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Originally Posted by monkeystyle View Post
Advice/Opinion: A couple dating another couple is usually a bad idea. Too many points of failure. Keep the friendship and save the drama.
Sorry. I haven't even read the whole thread yet. But wanted to break in and say while this may generally be true, it isn't always the case. My husband and I have been in a very strong poly (polyfidelitous) relationship with another couple for well over 2 years now. As the relationships deepen we are beginning to have a little challenge as we try to find our real places in each others lives. But 99.9% is great and I never want to give up what we have.
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  #36  
Old 08-30-2013, 12:03 PM
monkeystyle monkeystyle is offline
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Sorry. I haven't even read the whole thread yet. But wanted to break in and say while this may generally be true, it isn't always the case. My husband and I have been in a very strong poly (polyfidelitous) relationship with another couple for well over 2 years now. As the relationships deepen we are beginning to have a little challenge as we try to find our real places in each others lives. But 99.9% is great and I never want to give up what we have.
Agreed it's possible to have a successful quad, or even more. The difficulty is finding four developed and mature people to inhabit the same space at once. It's rare.
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  #37  
Old 08-30-2013, 12:30 PM
gorgeouskitten gorgeouskitten is offline
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Agreed it's possible to have a successful quad, or even more. The difficulty is finding four developed and mature people to inhabit the same space at once. It's rare.
I could agree with you more after this experience, while three of us were like "hey this could work" the fourth totally blew up and now we arent even friends anymore. It wasnt just the quad thing either, its not like anyone waas "insisting" on that, but since we hadnt known the one penis policy this guy was livid my spouse was into his. so, bye bye friendship
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