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  #81  
Old 02-04-2010, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Perhaps age is not the issue here? Perhaps it is really the different approaches to poly?....
I know one thing; Poly is often poly's worst advocate. Infighting and petty squabbles make us all look like a joke.....call me the court jester, because I am staying put as long as my Love will have me!....I'll even wear tights
LMAO. Seriously LMAO Mono!
I think you hit the nail on the head with the masking of a different issue.
It's too clear that the "youngun's here are repeating that they don't feel marginalized, so evidently it's not an age issue HERE. It COULD BE somewhere else-but not here and now where you are and not where I am either.

On the other hand it seems obvious that there is a lot of contention also being masked as "well no... you just don't understand..." As I said to GG today amidst tears and strife-if you aren't REAL with someone, upfront and honest about your TRUEST needs/intentions/emotions, then you can't possibly expecte them to understand. So all of this clear contention that isn't identified openly and honestly is pretty........boring to me.
Yes I said boring.
I'm all for fixing issues-but at this point it would seem that the "issue" brought up by this thread, either doesn't exist in this environment (per the responses from the "youngun's who aren't experiencing it) or they are full of crap (no offense intended) and saying that they "feel fine" when they don't.
As there is no way for us to FOR SURE know one way or the other, maybe it's time to move on to topics that DO pertain.... Because as you pointed out-all of this theoretic blah blah is just making the "poly community" look ridiculous on a large scale.
I know I was medicated and under duress-but it seems to me that all of this started with an argument over wether or nor poly included swinging and/or fuck buddies. That argument proved futile as the general concensus was that no one could come to an agreement and so we've moved on to age...
WHO CARES?????
We're freaking PEOPLE as River said, WE'RE ALL JUST F'ING PEOPLE ON PLANET EARTH so lets just agree that there ARE different types of people doing different types of things, with different types of goals, intentions, desires, fears, loves, hurts etc and THAT is ok.

And while we're on the topic-if we're going to keep throwing around the word Marginalization-can someone just start a thread on what the hell marginalization IS so we can come to some sort of understanding on THAT?
Because so far I've read REPEATED posts on "I don't feel or see marginalization of this that or the other kind" in my community and a handful of posts saying it's a huge problem.
I'm not saying that marginalization isn't a problem, but maybe the PROBLEM HERE is that someone(s) feels like they aren't liked.
Why don't we address that specifically in one thread and what marginalization is in another. And while we are at it why don't we invite some mono people to post on what their issues with poly are and what would make them more comfortable learning about it. If we want to be accepted, we need to start educating people OUTSIDE OF THE POLY COMMUNITY and knowing how best to TALK WITH them instead of TO them would be a HUGE step in the right direction. Hell-we could let Mono start that thread!
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  #82  
Old 02-04-2010, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
We're freaking PEOPLE as River said, WE'RE ALL JUST F'ING PEOPLE ON PLANET EARTH so lets just agree that there ARE different types of people doing different types of things, with different types of goals, intentions, desires, fears, loves, hurts etc and THAT is ok.
One massive "AMEN!" to that sentiment from me, LR - very well-said! Respecting that and allowing people to be different like this is very much my belief in what we should be.
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  #83  
Old 02-04-2010, 03:06 AM
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Tell River-I got it from him.
But I agree.
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  #84  
Old 02-04-2010, 03:10 AM
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In r/l-the closest I've come to seeing this marginalization within the poly-community is as someone previous stated, the younger crowd treating the older crowd like they aren't "good enough" for the younger crowd's poly get togethers due to being unattractive and old....
That definitely doesn't sound like a pleasant situation. I don't like to make assumptions as everyone communicates differently.

What do you mean by the younger crowd treated the older crowd like there weren't good enough? Did those within the younger crowd state that those who were apart of the older crowd were unattractive and old and that is why they did not interact? Did this happen within a poly group run by young people? Marginalization does have a connection to power.

There is a difference between exclusionary practices being implemented by those in positions of authority and different groups developing, under an impartial authority, who have no influence over the needs and interests addressed by the group as a whole. It could be something as simple as "we're never going to watch those movies at Movie Night because they're outdated and don't address this generation's experience regardless of the fact we have other generations here."

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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
There is generational gaps for sure but that is not poly specific.
...
Perhaps it is really the different approaches to poly? We see a broad approach to poly that span all ages in our community....it just depends on what people want out of relationships. Using age as a line to divide people is bullshit. From the outside it looks as if we're masking different approaches with the excuse of different ages and that is completely misinformed and reflects a lack of experience and exposure; not in anyone in particular, but in all of us.
Generational gaps tend to encompass a lot of things including approaches to life which could then include poly approaches. The differing values, approaches, mindsets, interests between generations is a documented and much discussed thing. This does not mean connections cannot be made across age lines. I agree using age to divide people is bullshit. Do you think that this is the goal of TNG groups and what made you come to that conclusion?

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Who's being ageist there?
To the contrary of the skew of opinions within this thread, traits of superficiality are not the sole domain of the young or the old.

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Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
Raven, I've seen a great deal of that dismissal coming from the younger polys.
What I find interesting is that the response often within this thread to "younger polys may experience marginalization within poly communities" is "older polys are marginalized by younger polys." This is often stated in the context of dating and romantic attraction as opposed to poly community organizing.

How does this statement aid in moving towards more inclusive poly communities respecting the views, perspectives and needs of all of its members?


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Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
Even accounting for the possibility that I'm brainwashed, how do you explain away the other opinions? Surely we can't all be internalizing the greater poly world's abhorrence of those in our age group. Is it not fathomable that, at least in some people's experience, the poly world doesn't hate us?

Isn't not being hated a good thing?
The brainwashed bit, the internalizing the abhorrence bit and the poly world doesn't hate us bit made no sense. It was as though you're responding to things that were never said or having an internal conversation perhaps. Perhaps I missed a post. Where did someone state these things to you?

~Raven~
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  #85  
Old 02-04-2010, 03:17 AM
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Raven-

What is your point?

I keep reading and reading and reading and reading-and getting all sorts of PM questions to boot.
The thing is-any ONE statement of yours makes sense, but all together they aren't creating a singular point that I can find.

So please can you give me a one paragraph or so explanation of what it is you feel is important for everyone to know in regards to marginalization of "younger" poly's?
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  #86  
Old 02-04-2010, 03:57 AM
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LR

How do your PMs contribute to the thread? Where's the significance to the topic?

This is where I wonder whether or not discussion and problem solving in regards to marginalization is really the goal of this thread. You gave your view and experience. When I asked you questions about those to clarify and find out more, you do not respond. Is it even possible for you to respond?


The marginalization of younger polys spiel was CdM's domain in regards to the creation of poly TNG groups. If you wonder what the significance of talking about marginalization is, you can ask him what his motivation was. Maybe he'll answer.

There were responses describing the experiences with marginalization of younger people within poly communities. Not that they were addressed by many. I do not doubt that it is one of the issues young poly groups seek to address and alleviate.

Drawing a connection between previous threads about swinging and poly and this thread is interesting. Why do they seem connected to you?

As you have stated "WHO CARES," if it is of no importance to you because it doesn't effect your life, that's fine. I tend to care about people outside of myself and seek to deconstruct and not perpetuate social frameworks that disadvantage people. I do not believe in being united for the sake of 'looking' united to those outside the poly community in order to gain rights on their terms. I would rather address division and internal prejudice than hide it to give a fake appearance.

~Raven~
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 02-04-2010 at 04:06 AM.
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  #87  
Old 02-04-2010, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
Do you think that this is the goal of TNG groups and what made you come to that conclusion?




If anything I defend everyone's right to have exclusive groups as long as they are not founded on hate. I truly do not think TNG has any goal other then developing a body of like minded, age similar people...what could be wrong with that.

I know what it feels like to sense being under attack, Raven. Many on this forum have felt this at one time or another. Not saying this is the case for you, but just so you know.
I hope negativity is not eroding anyone's ability to share their experiences with those around them on here. We all have something to learn from each other. Lets not close our minds because the next thing to follow is our hearts. Hearts are not easy to open up sometimes. This forum has it's foundation built on those that open up.

Peace and Love to all
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Last edited by ImaginaryIllusion; 02-04-2010 at 08:13 PM. Reason: quote formating
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  #88  
Old 02-04-2010, 04:21 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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LR
How do your PMs contribute to the thread? Where's the significance to the topic?
They were ABOUT this thread and how several other posters were confused about it. Being of similar mind (confused), having more time (since I am not working), and being willing to ask for clarification-I did.

Unfortunately-even whilst complaining that I didn't answer your questions (wasn't aware you had asked me any-but I'll go back and reread after I hit post) you didn't answer mine.

Quote:
This is where I wonder whether or not discussion and problem solving in regards to marginalization is really the goal of this thread.
The thread itself has no goal-it's inanimate. The people writing on it likely all have different goals...

Quote:
You gave your view and experience. When I asked you questions about those to clarify and find out more, you do not respond. Is it even possible for you to respond?
Sarcasm?
Obviously it is-as I've been doing so for 4 months on here, quite regularly and clearly. As I said-I don't recall you asking me a specific question.

Quote:
The marginalization of younger polys spiel was CdM's domain in regards to the creation of poly TNG groups. If you wonder what the significance of talking about marginalization is, you can ask him what his motivation was. Maybe he'll answer.
He already did-I was asking you what your point was. I wasn't confused about his.


Quote:
Drawing a connection between previous threads about swinging and poly and this thread is interesting. Why do they seem connected to you?
They carry the same attitude, same arguments, same theories, and intriquingly they both continue to have a feeling of "sides".

Quote:
As you have stated "WHO CARES," if it is of no importance to you because it doesn't effect your life, that's fine.
If that's how you feel about it-why did you ask me specific questions? I don't understand.

Quote:
I tend to care about people outside of myself and seek to deconstruct and not perpetuate social frameworks that disadvantage people. I do not believe in being united for the sake of 'looking' united to those outside the poly community in order to gain rights on their terms. I would rather address division and internal prejudice than hide it to give a fake appearance.
I'm glad you care about people. So do I.
I'm also glad that you try to break down the social frameworks that cause people to be treated ill. I do as well.

I don't believe in being united with any specific group for any particular reason and I'm never fake. In fact I'm so NOT fake it annoys the crap out of people around me who are while simultaneously gaining me their respect because (as I often hear) "I always know you won't give me a line, you'll shoot straight from the hip and I can count on you meaning every word of what comes out of your mouth, even if I don't like it."

I am still not sure why you feel like we are on opposing sides, or that others on this board on are opposing sides from you.
You're choice of words in your posts lead many to believe that you are somehow angry or caustic about the things we say-but I speak for a number of us when I say-we don't know why.

I'm not a caustic person and I think my history of posts shows that clearly enough. So I chose to take it upon myself to ask-thinking that might in turn bring about an answer to what it is we are doing that seems to lead to you lecturing us on our apparent inability and unwillingness to accept the mistreated, abused and different minorities in our societies...
because we don't see as how we are failling to accept or to support or to fight for those people.
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  #89  
Old 02-04-2010, 04:42 AM
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[B][COLOR=RoyalBlue]The brainwashed bit, the internalizing the abhorrence bit and the poly world doesn't hate us bit made no sense. It was as though you're responding to things that were never said or having an internal conversation perhaps. Perhaps I missed a post. Where did someone state these things to you?
In order of... mmm, personal effect?

-- The internalized hatred to which I refer is ageism: am I adding to my oppression when I say I haven't experienced any problems due to my age? I don't feel I have. I've been popping back and forth between this discussion and one about internalized sexism (because apparently women who don't write about women hate women. Um, what?). So just as I wouldn't call myself sexist if I chose to write about men, I don't think of myself or anyone else here as ageist for choosing to belong to an all-ages group -- or not choosing to belong to an all-ages group.

I see that one get tossed around a lot, and I don't particularly buy it.

-- Regarding the possibility of brainwashing: Certain parties have expressed that I might not be entirely my own woman in discussions like this one -- specifically, that I'm CielDuMatin's personal yes-girl. Those parties are wrong. Just clarifying that in case those parties feel the need to dismiss me as some crazed crusader for my beloved.

-- Regarding the poly world not hating us: I see you behaving rather like it hates you because of your age. From what I see on this forum, nope, it really doesn't. Maybe I'm misinterpreting words on a screen yet again. It's so easy to do.

Make any sense now?
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  #90  
Old 02-04-2010, 04:47 AM
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Raven-I found your questions-fyi-your sarcasm about me not being able to answer-is one way to treat a person like they are less than you are. It's another way of marginalizing them. Had you NOT been assuming I was a bitch or a moron (one way or the other) you could have treated me with the presumption that I MUST have missed something. Instead you chose to talk down to me, leading the idea that you think I'm less than you are.
Is this not marginalization on a small scale-and are you (and Ceoli) not trying to fight against?

Quote:
What do you mean by the younger crowd treated the older crowd like there weren't good enough?
The behave as though the people who are older can't understand what they are talking about, talk about how stupid they are, talk about how they don't practice poly relationships "right" (whatever that is), that they are unattractive and therefore aren't REALLY worthy of being part of the poly-community as it only "detracts" from the "quality" of options.

Quote:
Did those within the younger crowd state that those who were apart of the older crowd were unattractive and old and that is why they did not interact?
I don't think I would consider "not interacting" necessarily marginalization. I don't always interact with every person I see in a social group (for example on here, I don't have time to personally address every person, every time I log in). However-they were clear that due to being older they were unattractive and due to being unattractive they were a detriment to the community.

Quote:
Did this happen within a poly group run by young people?
Nope-there hasn't been a DEFINED "poly group" in our state until it was started by LuvnWonder a couple weeks ago-and that is (as I said already) all "older people" except for myself, my boyfriend and my sister.
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