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  #11  
Old 07-12-2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
Marcus, i think LR is talking about basic household and mundane responsibilities, not "i am not sure i still want the same things out of this relationship as you do anymore" artificial "obligations". ...So, no. It is NOT okay for you to take the money you would ordinarily use to pay the electric bill or car insurance and use it for a weekend getaway with your new squeeze, i don't care how many epiphanies you've had or how recently you've had them.
That's not what I took away from her statement, so I could certainly be focusing on a different area than she intended.

On the topic you picked up on: When it comes to depending on each other financially or other more contractual agreements, I don't have much of an opinion. It is my goal to avoid becoming dependent upon my loved ones for survival or basic function if I can. Currently I am employed enough and we (IV, CV, and I) have such a low cost of living that I could probably float this for a while even if both of them decided they wanted to have a gambling problem or snort all of their money off of the asses of strippers, or spend it for a weekend getaway with a new squeeze.

This won't happen, IV is not a flake like that. If it did I suppose she would understand that I'd be pissed and that our roommate arrangement would be dissolved. It's a tough hypothetical to imagine.
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  #12  
Old 07-12-2013, 07:03 PM
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I was saying to my GF this morning that perhaps it's just time to accept that she gets lost in NRE and I get lost in turmoil.
Recognizing the fact that someone has a strong reaction to NRE is probably a good first step to acceptance. Then making decisions regarding how you want to associate with someone who has this trait is next. What shouldn't come into the equation is the feeling of entitlement to that person and the illusion that you have some say over what they do with their time. The entitlement mentality is hard to get past, it is reinforced in the environment (at least mine) at every turn. So coming to terms with the fact that I am not entitled to someone spending their time on me the way that I would like has been a journey.

Most people don't seem to recognize they are not entitled to this, but I am of the opinion that it will lead to healthier relationships in general.
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  #13  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:11 PM
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GF feels resentful that she has spent all this time supporting me and hearing my upset, anger, etc. and feels I let my ex get off far too easily.
So your GF finds providing you with support/nurture in your times of need a "chore?" And that if her support helps you let go of the ex in a healthier for you way the ex "gets off easy" rather than "you are able to leave healthier?"

She expects you to "punish" the ex somehow for "making" you feel yucky so your GF's time investment in supporting you to heal is "worth the bother?"

If she is not willing to be tending to you in a break up, she could say "I'm sorry. I am not willing to tend to you in a break up at this time" and then not do it.
It could solve her resentment that she's "HAD to spend all this time supporting you, listening to your upset, etc" if she would state her willing/not willing and then just NOT do what she is not really willing to not do or do MORE than she is willing to do. She could respect her own limits.

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She said that not only would me getting back involved with her effect our relationship; but would also be unhealthy for me.
Was that supposed to be a threat?

Or was that just her stating her own limits up front this time?

You getting involved in ANY outside relationship affects "our relationship" because it changes the polymath. You breaking up with people changes the polymath.
Whether you practice an interdependent model or independent model of relationship -- at the very least it affects the time available to share with her / and sex health risks, right? When things change, ripple effects are felt. Limit of the Universe.

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What constitutes as being 'bad' for an existing relationship, regarding extra relationships?
Bad how? Like going down poly hell? Or something else in some other area other than emotional/time management? Like they close joint checking accounts without you knowing to give it to the new sweetie? Trust things like that?

All relationships use up human and non-human resources. Spending more resources than you actually have is "bad" -- be it time, money, sleep, energy, skills, knowledge, willingness, trust, goodwill, etc. Spreads people too thin.

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How can we avoid neglecting our relationship during breakups, or the lead-up to breakups?
Could become aware of each of your habits in break up times -- what the strengths/weaknesses are and what is needed at what stage. What you could do different, what GF could do different.

Could give the partner a heads up whether you are the breaker-upper or the breaker-uppee as soon as possible.

Could let them know what you need and ask if they are willing to provide it.

Could ask them if they know what they need at this time and state what you are willing to do/provide.

Could let them know how you see this will impact your time together over the next little while.

Could know and state the changing wants, needs, and limits -- nobody can mind reader.

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How can we ensure that we provide immediate care to the heartbroken partner, without finding ourselves swallowed by their grief?
Could have good boundaries and tell the person when the load is too much for you.

Could encourage them to share with OTHERS because your own bucket is now full.

Could sign up to be the Friday person. But not every day of the week person. Could respect your own limits.

If you have failed to created poly community -- friends, family, etc. Well, you are responsible for your own emergency preparedness. Go MAKE some friends and create your poly-safeword people so when the fit hits the shan, you don't have the added burden of "I have nobody I can talk to about this locally." Online help is great and all but online strangers do not bring you your fav funny movie and your fav soup and sit there and watch it with you.

Could accept that sometimes the ministry of presence means being willing to dwell in someone else's pain so they don't have to do it alone. And yeah -- it's not a COMFY thing. It's a skill to be able to empathize, sit with them for a time, then walk away and let someone else take a turn with them so you can go off to do whatever it is you have to do and not be all bogged down in it. You don't get to get to grow the skill if you don't expose yourself to actually having to exercise it. And even when you do have the skill -- it's still not COMFY to do. Nobody goes "Oh, yay a grieving hard time! Whee!"

Practical suggestions here. Could OFFER what you are willing to do and not wait for the broken to tell you. Be nice if they could, but they sometimes cannot yet.

Quote:
How and *when* can the non-grieving partner voice their own feelings on that former relationship, to eradicate resentment and strengthen the existing relationship?
Could bring resentments up earlier and not let it grow to levels like that in the first place.

Could check in for relationship maintanence periodically -- not just when things are crap. Strengthen all along, not just after things are breaking/broke.

Could ask the grieving person something like "Could you be willing/able to talk about my end of things? When would be a good time?" and not just dump it on their head in the midst of crisis. Make an appointment.

If I were keeping silent and let "ugh" build up to resentment levels and did not nip it in the bud? It is SO not the time to drag all that out to DH when he's in crisis. I'd be ADDING to his problems at hand rather than TAKING AWAY from his problems. It's not loving or kind to do that. If I sat on it that long I could sit on it a few more days/weeks so I'm not pinging him when he's already down.

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Would you end a relationship because your partner was unhappy about it?
Depends on why partner is unhappy about it. Maybe I'm too close to see something that DH can see or he became aware of. I'd be willing to hear the reason. I'm not willing to just break up with the person, but I'd be willing to hear the reason.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 07-12-2013 at 11:36 PM.
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  #14  
Old 07-12-2013, 11:46 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Yikes!

People change over time and sometimes quite abruptly. Sometimes a persons focus changes to such a degree that their previous interests take a back seat or are removed from their list of concerns entirely. Relationships are not mechanically static nor are emotions determined by contracts.

I personally find little to no value to someone doing something for me simply because they made some kind of previous agreement with me. I want my partners to enjoy their time with me and if they are not enjoying it, I want them to go do what they would rather be doing. They are my romantic partners, not my indentured employees.
Of course they change-we all change.
But-if you have already accepted obligations (such as children, a mortgage, a pet etc) then you need to uphold them until they are finished.
If you have agreed to obligations such as a romance, safer sex, date night or WHATEVER-even if it's coffee on MOndays with your best friend, you need to fulfil it.

That's where the communication detail comes in-if you don't want to do it anymore, you don't just stop. You SAY SO.

my bf and I are currently not sexually involved. Nothing to do with poly or Maca. It's a personal preference of my own that has nothing to do with ANYONE but him and I.
I didn't just stop having sex with him 6 months ago. I communicated what has changed and why it isn't working for me right now.

Not because he said I have to tell him.
Because that's caring behavior.

We've been in SOME sort of relationship for 20 years.
Just friends, then fwb, then just friends, then lovers, then dating, then D/s, then....
with each, there are changed to what obligations we each agree to take on.
But we don't just dump the agreements and leave one another ahnging.

Likewise-with my friends, I have a friend who I met 25+ years ago. About 18 years ago we were best friends and had been for some time, when he married. She hated me. We talked and agreed to not have contact-for the sake of their relationship. But he didn't just DISAPPEAR.
3 years ago they separated and started divorce proceedings, he contacted me and expressed an interest in reconnecting. I was thrilled. But I didn't just up and cancel my date nights with Maca so I could go meet up with this guy. I arranged my calendar to include this new person without dropping my responsibilities to my family, lovers, friends, etc that are currently in my life.

Too often there seems this "oh well I can't help it, it's NRE" excuse for just walking away and expecting that the people at home with pick up the pieces of your trail of tears for you-and wait til you reappear.
That's just fucking irresponsible and rude.

If you can't AT LEAST tell me, "hey, I'd really like to free up my Friday nights, how can we do that without you having to rearrange our babysitters, work schedules, household responsibilities on your own"?
Yeah no.

I expect my partners, friends and family and even my kids to be more considerate. Not just to me, but to PEOPLE in general.

Hell-I walk out of dr offices for that shit. If my appointment was scheduled for 11, and you can't even have the dignity of having the secretary let me know you are running late-don't expect me to be waiting at 11:30. It's all good if you are running late-but your time isn't more precious than mine. I am expected to call if I need to alter times, and I expect to be notified if they do.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:30 AM
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Too often there seems this "oh well I can't help it, it's NRE" excuse for just walking away and expecting that the people at home with pick up the pieces of your trail of tears for you-and wait til you reappear.
That's just fucking irresponsible and rude.
I'll be honest with you, this whole post just seems like you ranting because you've got something on your mind and this thread is as good a place as any to blow off some steam. I don't have a problem with it, but you quoted me at the top of this rant which makes me think I have somehow deeply offended you because of the chores in your house not getting done or not calling you if I'm going to miss a coffee date.

How did the volume get turned up so high on this conversation?

I at no point addressed the courtesy involved in when a person changes their worldview or interests. My presumption is that you aren't dating self-obsessed twats and that your partners understand that when a lunch date is ditched that a phone call is courtesy. If you date people like that I don't know what to tell you... but none of my posts were designed to address the communication habits of dim-wits. If that is what is being discussed I don't have a lot of experience to draw on.

First I'm a sociopath and now I'm a bad date. Did I miss a meeting? What the heck are you guys talking about?
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  #16  
Old 07-13-2013, 04:49 AM
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Marcus-I am sorry if it came off that way.
In all sincerity-I took about 3 minutes to read your reply (never made it through the rest) and wrote a response-then ran back to a houseful of wild kids.
(good wild-not bad wild) in 83 degree weather (very unusual for us).
I wasn't really ranting-just trying very hard to type my thoughts really fast without it coming off as half a sentence.

I USUALLY take time to put in pertinent smiley faces and parentheses with reference to my attitude while writing-but I was being lazy today with the computer and focused more on chasing my 2 year old grandson (when on earth did all of the energy get shifted from me to him?!?!?)

Anyway-it wasn't meant to come off as a pissing fest at all. In fact I happen to enjoy dialoguing with others when you are too-because all in all, I agree with what you write-even though our situations are so different.
I can totally see myself in a world without children or spouse(s) and living my life more independently as you do. I think it would have been a very valid choice for me. And I like your ethics.
As galagirl says "hot ethics".

at any rate-I gotta run (again) and get kids tucked into bed.
(I would post on other threads if there were any going-but it seems pretty quiet this week)
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:50 AM
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(and I only quoted it so I could see it fyi-while I wrote the first paragraph-the rest wasn't aimed at you at all-as I said-dysfunctionally rushing! Hopefully no harm done. I wouldn't suggest you are a bad date-haven't a clue-but if you ever find yourself in alaska-we could test the theory lol)
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:05 AM
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It's all very well talking about how you abandon hierarchical relationship structures and the like but when you completely ignore the fact that people have joint responsibilities that create obligations and are a priority. That isn't privileging a relationship, it's taking care of your shit. Once you have formed these obligations and responsibilities, you can't just take this hippyish approach suggested where relationships are fluid and change and you just have to go with the flow. No, those responsibilities always come first.

If you truly abandon hierarchical relationship structures, you would not share a home or any other financial responsibilities with a partner because of the inherent priority those obligations take over everything else. But living with someone you love is awesome, so why not stop being so adamant about abandoning hierarchy, and admit that you prioritise your obligations rather than people. That does mean a lot of the time, things that involve the person/people you live with and the children you raise will come first simply because of the obligation, not because you love that partner or those partners' more, but really, that is just practical and how life works.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:08 AM
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I wouldn't suggest you are a bad date-haven't a clue-but if you ever find yourself in alaska-we could test the theory lol)
Hey wait a minute! We should start collecting data from coast to coast. Marcus, I wouldn't think you'd be a bad date at all -- in fact, quite the opposite -- but just so I can know for sure, let me know if you ever come to NYC. I'd like to test the theory here!
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  #20  
Old 07-13-2013, 04:03 PM
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Marcus, I wouldn't think you'd be a bad date at all -- in fact, quite the opposite -- but just so I can know for sure, let me know if you ever come to NYC. I'd like to test the theory here!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance
I wouldn't suggest you are a bad date-haven't a clue-but if you ever find yourself in alaska-we could test the theory lol
the next time I'm heading to NYC or Alaska I'm going to be looking some folks up!
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Last edited by Marcus; 07-13-2013 at 05:17 PM.
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