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  #11  
Old 07-06-2013, 09:09 PM
london london is offline
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You start from a place where she is not attempting to limit, control or intervene in your relationship. You haven't actually started until she understands that. Until her insecurities are not dictating the nature of your relationship with her husband. Until she understands that sharing your body with her husband will not stop her being jealous.

Even if you are cool with not having sex alone with her husband, you don't want to start a precedent where her issues with sharing her husband consistently impact on your relationships. Unless you are happy with the emotional risk of being their guinea pig. Sexually and otherwise. If you are happy with the fact that she obviously has insecurities which may mean that she will pull out of this at any time, making it extremely difficult to continue your relationship with her husband.

You might say that anyone's spouse can pull out at any time, and that's absolutely true, that's why the majority of us try to get assurances from potential partners that they are poly, regardless of what their partner(s) may want from them, and then, we try to assure that their partner(s) are completely okay with them being poly too, just to lessen the chance of drama. Being completely okay with poly doesn't involve stopping your partner having a sexual relationship with someone else.
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  #12  
Old 07-06-2013, 11:46 PM
YellowBird YellowBird is offline
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London: Thank you. This is exactly the type of advice/info I'm looking for!!

Your first line is exactly why we really haven't "started" anything. We're talking. Discussing. Getting closer to each other. If/when we START this life, we'll all be on the same page.

And the "guinea pig" concept has been discussed, too...neither of them want me to be that or feel that way.

I'm in love with him/he with me. BUT... with total respect to the life they've had for so many years, we're not rushing into anything. Thus why we haven't just had an affair. He and I have engaged in some making out, etc, which she is totally fine with and actually encourages.

She's an amazing woman. Truly. I adore her, and am enjoying getting to know her better. She's the same way with me. And we all see what we all "do" for each other as a very close friendship bonds between us.

Again, thank you, London.
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2013, 11:50 PM
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Natja Natja is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowBird View Post
What is "NRE?"
New relationship energy, that crazy in love feeling that makes you contemplate the kind of stupid risks that otherwise you would not do....
Including ignoring situations when you are at an obvious disadvantage.

Quote:
But how DOES anyone start a life of poly without a beginning? How is this supposed to start? None of us are experienced at this or have even known it existed, so why run away from something that's potentially beautiful?
It might sound harsh at the moment Bird, but what you have described so far is less beautiful and more a future car crash, you need a healthy foundation to build something both beautiful and strong. Let's say you want to build a house with this couple, right now they are offering you polystyrene bricks and you are accepting it because you think that it will work, it won't, you need to insist that you get the real bricks, but they might not want to give them up.

Quote:
How do you know it WILL hurt me?
Because I have taken polystyrene bricks before, because over many years I have seen others take them, I have seen people hold out for the real bricks and get them. I have also seen smart women, who know they are being given a duff deal, ignore the inner voice which is really there to protect her because the prospect of love is just too, too sweet. This is what I believe you are doing.
Quote:
We've discussed the fact that the wife and I are not "in love," ..yet.
Why would two hetero women even have that conversation? It is a desperate attempt at the wife trying to cleave onto yours and the husbands budding relationship so she does not feel left out, it is a bonkers proposition and destined to fail, do you know how seldom that sort of situation works anyway even with two bisexual women who are often in love with each other (at least for a while)?

Quote:
Natja: "start as you mean to go on" would require just STARTING but since the whole idea of it is so new, how can we JUST START? And, why does it spell danger?
Because you can't start that way, you don't just say 'yes' to anything that is offered and consider that a good place to start, so you are all new...you learn, you compromise, you don't just expose your neck and take what little crumbs you are given because it is better than being alone (trust me, it isn't)

London's advice was sound. If you decide to just carry on ignoring the dangers you will get hurt and trust me it will be you who is thrown out on your ear broken hearted and alone.
Funny enough there is thread going on right now where a woman has had her relationship controlled by the wife and just recently ended by her. At lest this woman has other lovers so she can take solace in their arms/company, that is more than what you will have unless you stand up for your rights.

Anyway, you might want to read it and see just were this sort of control usually ends up.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49395

At the end of the day you will do what you want to do anyway, but I will hope that you do not ignore that inner voice, that you will not accept this restriction, that you will not get involved with this women so you can only have sex as a threesome (being a friend is fine, you don't have to create a romantic relationship out of that) and that you all do a heck load more reading before you start anything.

Please be sensible and protect yourself.
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  #14  
Old 07-07-2013, 06:13 AM
northhome northhome is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowBird View Post
We're talking. Discussing. Getting closer to each other. If/when we START this life, we'll all be on the same page.
Hi Bird,

It is possible to make your situation work, if you ALL really do your homework and are all prepared for the possibility that you will ALL have to change. The odds however are probably stacked against you.

Many people are not prepared to grow and learn, much less take personal responsibility for their actions, and therefore get into trouble when it comes to something as complex as a multi-person relationship.

I would take all the 'negativity' you are hearing with a grain of salt - some of it may well be down to people having had bad experiences based on incorrect expectations and poor communications in their own lives. What you might take from their responses though is that a lot of people have either been in or seen similar setups to yours that did not work out well.

NRE is a real issue though. As Dr. Helen Fisher says, it is a state of bio-chemically induced temporary insanity that really does make it impossible to view the world rationally. That's what this forum is good for, when it works without descending into chaos! You can get good sound feedback on your situation from people who are not in your 'NRE-bubble'.

Best of luck.
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  #15  
Old 07-07-2013, 01:32 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is online now
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Hi YellowBird,

Read this article about the "rights of a secondary." Might be easier to take in than some of the responses here, which come across a bit harsh.

Sample:

Quote:
Rules to be cautious about

Both primary partners must be involved in some or all aspects of the secondary relationship

This might be as far reaching as 'you have to date both of us, or if you date one person, both people must be there'. Or it can be more specific such as 'both primary partners must be there if there is any sexual contact'. This suggests that the primary couple is prone to jealousy and insecurity, and I don't think this is the healthiest way to address that. This can be a way of controlling the relationship, and can make it difficult to establish healthy relationships of any depth.
As a secondary you:

Quote:
ave the right to have a voice in the form my relationship takes. I am a person, with my own needs and my own ideas about what's important in my life; even when I am joining a pre-existing relationship, I have a right to have some say in the time I can spend with my lover and other things about the form and structure of that relationship. If my partners attempt to impose pre-existing agreements about the form, time, or circumstances under which I may spend time with my lover, I have a right to speak up if those agreements do not meet my needs,and I have a right to have my partner and my partner's partner hear me and consider what I say. That doesn't mean they have to do whatever I say, but it does mean that I can and should have a voice.
And so on. More here:

http://www.morethantwo.com/polyforsecondaries.html

There is no need for you to force yourself to fall in love with, or have sex with, this wife, if it's really only the husband you desire sexually. She does not NEED to be present when you and the h have sex... that is just something she thinks will reduce her jealousy. It won't! It will just be bad sex, if you 2 women are straight. Even if you do get to explore some latent bicuriousity, and have some sexual fun, chances are things will still get ugly rather quickly, if she sees him paying more attention to you than to her, in bed. NRE will do that. We've seen men not able to get it up for their primary when the new lover is right there, all exciting, unmapped territory.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2013, 04:09 PM
northhome northhome is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
There is no need for you to force yourself to fall in love with, or have sex with, this wife, if it's really only the husband you desire sexually. She does not NEED to be present when you and the h have sex... that is just something she thinks will reduce her jealousy. It won't! It will just be bad sex, if you 2 women are straight.
Force = definitely bad news. Experiment to find out if it might be something for all of you - why not? As long as all the consenting adults are participating willingly then it might be fun.

Who knows? She might get turned on watching and you might like being watched. Stranger things have happened

Seriously though, doing things just to keep other people happy is a guaranteed recipe for disaster.
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  #17  
Old 07-08-2013, 02:00 PM
Flowerchild Flowerchild is offline
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Just to clarify, it seemed from your original post that you were ONLY with him, but not allowed to have sex with him?

But, eventually, you'll be able to have physical relations without her around (since she's not bi), right?

Otherwise, it looks like you're committing yourself to a life without sex. If that's cool with you, that's awesome, but doesn't seem like a lot of fun for you
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  #18  
Old 07-08-2013, 08:26 PM
london london is offline
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remember, the ONLY way that she will EVER be able to have sex with her partner is if the wife is present. That is coercion. It is not unreasonable to want to have sex with your romantic partner. If she wishes to experiment with the wife too, then fine, but when the only way she can have a sexual relationship with her romantic partner is in the presence of his wife, she is forced to decide between sex with a woman, or in someone else's presence at the very least OR no sex with her partner. That isn't a reasonable choice to give someone. Not when it is only based on your insecurities.
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  #19  
Old 07-09-2013, 03:07 AM
YellowBird YellowBird is offline
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That's a great deal of WONDERFUL info. I appreciate it all!

Just to clear things up...this whole idea/concept/thought is TOTALLY new to all of us. I've been friends with them for a while, but THIS is NEW. I truly didn't mean to make the wife sound like a control freak. She's not at all. No one's being forced to do anything, and that includes her; she's not being forced accept me a a part of their family. It's a very loving friendship, and things are progressing slowly.

Flowerchild: Yes, I've committed myself to him..totally my choice regardless of sex or not. (tons of personal history behind my choice in that matter). And yes, I'm thinking eventually there will be private time for he & I. Again..allll is new, and he & I are NOT cheaters so we're not going to do anything deceivingly. We can't help that we fell in love.

I read the article about primary and secondary. There's a lot of great info there, and I appreciate the link.
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  #20  
Old 07-14-2013, 02:33 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Do you all have some strange idea that practicing polyamory means that all three of you must be sexually involved with each other? Even though you and she are straight? Are you aware that it is still polyamory if you are involved only with the husband? Poly people do have separate relationships - it isn't all about threesomes and moresomes. In fact, many poly people never have threesomes and have no desire to do so.

You say she is not a control freak, but you are not really "hearing" what we're telling you. The fact that she is stating any sex with her husband must take place with her present is the main reason we say she is only trying to exert control over your relationship with him. Essentially, no matter how politely and gently she puts it, that is an attempt to manage a relationship she is not in, and she has no business trying to manage. It is obvious she is insecure and not really consenting to poly if she will ask or expect this of you.

Even if you weren't heterosexual, why would you even consider it? It is extremely inappropriate for her to put that sort of requirement on his and your potential sex life. Do you get it now????
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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