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  #21  
Old 07-05-2013, 05:07 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by graviton View Post
I can appreciate where you are coming from nycyndie. You identify as poly and recognize that you would sooner give up a partner than give up your identity.
Egad, no! I do not ID as poly. I am just a human being open to having multiple relationships. For me it is not an identity or orientation AT ALL - I choose it, but would be happy in a mono relationship, too, because my happiness depends on ME, not on a relationship configuration. A relationship configuration is never, ever more important than a person. I just like the idea of having a life full of love and loving people, so for now I embrace poly as a practice.


I understand everything you're saying, but you really have no idea how much venomous anger is spewing out of your posts, so I just wanted to point out to you how obvious it is that you haven't forgiven her, though you say you did. I suspect forgiveness sometimes has to come in stages or steps, but I just take issue with the parameters you set forth for taking her back - that she can't have an outside relationship but you can. Both your wife and you are autonomous beings who make your own choices, but if you want to work on our relationship and heal the marriage, I think you need to look a little more at how creepy it is to make rules like that.

You both should consider therapy, individually and together.
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  #22  
Old 07-05-2013, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
Forgiveness. Still figuring this out, what it means, how to do it . . . forgiveness is NOT a clean slate. I dont' get that shit at all! We are all adults, let's be honest. As nice as it would be to have a clean slate at times in our life, you don't get one. You can't change what you've done, even if you feel badly about it so the idea that ANYONE is owed a clean slate is utter BS.
I never said anyone "owes" it to a cheater to wipe the slate clean. The person who was cheated on has to do what they feel is best, but if the goal is to preserve and heal the relationship, then wiping the slate clean is as much a benefit to the cheatee as it is to the cheater. Wiping the slate clean does not mean that the cheater does not need to make amends and rebuild trust. What you said about being transparent and proving yourself to not be lying anymore is also necessary.

However, so many people think that the onus of rebuilding a relationship after cheating is all on the cheater. Dirty, nasty, fucking cheater! Of course, it's a total breach of trust and a shitty thing to do, but the cheatee has a duty, too - to forgive. If they can't forgive, admit it, stop pretending you have forgiven, and work toward getting there.

What I meant when I say forgiving someone is starting over with a clean slate is this: the clean slate exists when the person who has been cheated on gives up the "need" to punish the cheater, and will not throw the transgression(s) back in their face. When you are forgiven a debt, it is as if the debt never happened, and you no longer owe the creditor money. If you go to jail for a crime, and are released after serving your time, they can't send you back for the same crime and make you pay for it again. It is the same with any transgression. Once the cheater has made amends and the cheatee is ready to forgive, you cannot keep punishing and holding onto the hurt or neither of you will ever be able to move on and build a new relationship with each other. If you never truly forgive someone, they will never be able to "pay" enough for what they did, and essentially would be your hostage.

You ever have an argument with someone who suddenly brings up shit you did from way back when, to try and make you really feel bad because they're angry? The fact that they bring up old wounds means that there is still some forgiving to be done. A clean slate doesn't mean pretending it never happened - it means that after acknowledging the "crime," the work has been done to move on, and the parties are now living in the present and not dredging up the past as a way to feel vindicated for feeling angry, victimized, offended etc.

I think maybe I said it better in another thread, where Loving Radiance concurred:

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I think this is key to being able to move on. The burden is not solely that of the transgressor who must make amends for whatever they did to break trust; the offended party must also be willing to fully forgive. And forgiveness means to wipe the slate clean as if it never happened and to let go of any suspicions, lingering doubts, or resentments. So, rebuilding trust is a challenging process for all parties, not just the one who fucked up. The transgressor can work vigilantly to regain trust for years, and again become a stellar partner who meets all the needs and expectations of their significant other(s), but if there is no forgiveness offered, it is all for nothing. You can't keep making someone pay for their "crime" over and over again. I don't think any relationship could survive that. All parties need to reach the point where they can leave it all behind them, and they all have work to do to get there.
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I think there is definitely a HUGE component in the fact that the person who was hurt MUST be willing to forgive in order for trust to be regained AND they can't be in retaliation or revenge mode either. For a long time, Maca was in retaliation "tit for tat" mode. He would intentionally do and say things intended to "repay" me for hurting him.

There is no healing for the relationship while that is going on. It really was a royal clusterfuck to say the least!

It was critical that I be true about making amends.
But there also came a point where I had to be willing to stand up and say

"ok, time's up, I'm not going to stop being the honest, open, transparent person I have become-but I am done being the doorpost you kick every time you feel anxsty or angry or hurt or whatever."

That forced him to stop and consider, he'd tried to get revenge, he'd vented all he could about the hurt, he'd annihilated my name in our social circles . . . Now, did he REALLY want to let bygones be bygones and try to build a functional future together; or move on apart.
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Last edited by nycindie; 07-05-2013 at 10:29 PM.
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  #23  
Old 07-05-2013, 09:11 PM
graviton graviton is offline
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Originally Posted by bookbug View Post
I am female.

Okay, the reason, I came to the conclusion that you had not forgiven your wife is that you stated you still entertain thoughts of leaving her. That doesn't sound like forgiveness, but perhaps I am mistaken?

Okay, yes, I can see where proximity would be an issue.



If this is true, then why is she angry at you for denying access to her friend?
One can forgive, but if the relationship and connection changes to something else that feels too different, then it may still be best to leave.

She feels that my relationship with her friend has tainted her relationship with the friend. She recognizes the hypocrisy in that considering how my family has been tainted.

Last edited by nycindie; 07-05-2013 at 09:19 PM. Reason: fixed quotes
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  #24  
Old 07-05-2013, 09:33 PM
graviton graviton is offline
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Thanks Vixtoria I appreciate your input. I guess the best way I can describe my forgiveness is that my head has forgiven her but my heart has not. I am very logically minded and can rationalize what happened and forgive it. My wife has agreed to do anything to rebuild my trust in her and has been great ever since. I am waaaay past the need for anger or vindictiveness, and trust me when I say there was plenty of it that I'm not proud of. I hurt for her because she hasn't forgiven herself. However my heart still aches and sobs because of it. My heart still screams "how could you do this?"

nycindie ...I also recognized from the beginning that I am responsible for most of the work if I want our marriage to work. I remember cursing at my wife in the days after I kicked her out about how unfair it is that the betrayed spouse is the one who has to do all the work to maintain the relationship while the cheater just has to perform a few trivial steps to build trust like opening there communications for scrutinizing and trying to be loving to their partner without being defensive or accusatory. My wife says she feels so helpless because she recognizes how powerless she is in my rebuilding a connection with her. It was my sense of pride, trust, and understanding of the world that was torn asunder, and I am the only one who can rebuild that which is mine. Once I have rebuilt it, it will look very much different than what it use to be. I may not like how it looks, my wife may not like how it looks, and because of that our marriage may end. But I do recognize that the burden and work is mine to perform.
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  #25  
Old 07-05-2013, 09:46 PM
Icewraithonyx Icewraithonyx is offline
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Disclaimer: I'm the mono husband of a cheating to polyamory wife, and we opted for reconciling. So some of my views may not be as cheating-tolerant as others.

Graviton: I'm the husband of Vixtoria so I do have some idea how shattering it is to be cheated on. So I understand how you might be feeling. I hope no one on the forums disregards how shocked and betrayed you're probably still feeling, even months later. However, I also perceive that there is still ALOT of anger and upset to be dealt with before the work of forgiveness can start. Vix and I have often made the comparison to having a spouse burn your house to the ground and now BOTH of you have a lot of work to do rebuilding if you want to continue having a home, which includes clearing out the burnt debris.
One of the resources Vix and I liked was the book “After the Affair” by Janis A Spring. I liked it because it did a good job describing how the betrayed partner might be feeling as well as some insights on what the betrayer was thinking / feeling. Also it suggested that extra relationships be put on hold, whereas every other affair recovery book DEMANDED a complete and permenant break up. Another thing I liked is it talked about deciding whether or not to try and reconcile or just call it quits. That's YOUR biggest step. You talk of forgiving her, but you THINK you're over the hump as far as deciding whether to leave her or not. (To be honest, I feel you have every right to still be this upset) IMO, you're still at the crossroads of deciding whether or not you want to reconcile or just be with the GF. Regardless of what others think about recovering from cheating while there's a 3rd party involved, I DO NOT see that working very often (almost Never). So my big advice for right now: Figure Out What You Want To Do. Work on reconciling with Wife or Cultivate The Relationship With GF. I'm not saying dump GF if you decide to reconcile but it's going to take ALOT of work and if GF is in the immediate vicinity as an “escape route”, it's going to sap your inclination to do the work. I agree with many of the others about reconciling not being JUST her job. If you're not even open to the option, there's NOTHING she can do. However, that does NOT mean she gets a clean slate, as if the transgression never occurred. (Would that be the advice for someone who was the victim of sexual assault or domestic violence? I would argue the infidelity can be nearly as shattering.) However, I think it means that you both acknowledge the mistake, the parts (minor and major) from each of you that promoted the mistake and how to move on from here.
Sorry, as I said, Wife and I are trying to reconcile past mistake on both of our parts, so my thoughts skew in that direction.

Last edited by Icewraithonyx; 07-05-2013 at 10:12 PM.
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  #26  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
Disclaimer: I'm the mono husband of a cheating to polyamory wife, and we opted for reconciling. So some of my views may not be as pro-cheating as others.
I don't think anyone here is "pro-cheating."
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  #27  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:13 PM
Icewraithonyx Icewraithonyx is offline
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I edited from "pro-cheating" to "cheating-tolerant". Better?
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  #28  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:18 PM
graviton graviton is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I don't think anyone here is "pro-cheating."
no that is true, but I do believe the poly community seems better prepared to handle it and thus a bit more accepting it as a part of life and jaded to it as a result. Many are use to the idea of their partner "being" with someone else so cheating is more a breach of disclosure and trust. For the rest of the population its the breach of trust AND the shock of their partner WANTING to be with someone else AND the shock of their ACTUALLY having been with someone else.
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  #29  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
I edited from "pro-cheating" to "cheating-tolerant". Better?
No, it sounds like you're saying that lots of people here condone cheating. Is that something you gathered from this thread, or elsewhere? There is a world of difference between forgiving the cheater in order to move on and tolerating cheating, which I am certain most members here would not do, myself included. I wouldn't put up with it.

Sometimes it is impossible to forgive and no reconciliation can be made. But if healing and reconciling the relationship is the goal, then compassion and forgiveness toward both cheater and cheatee (you know, as in not beating oneself up for not seeing or beleiving the warning signs, etc.) is necessary, I believe.
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Last edited by nycindie; 07-05-2013 at 10:31 PM.
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  #30  
Old 07-05-2013, 11:26 PM
Icewraithonyx Icewraithonyx is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
No, it sounds like you're saying that lots of people here condone cheating. Is that something you gathered from this thread, or elsewhere? There is a world of difference between forgiving the cheater in order to move on and tolerating cheating, which I am certain most members here would not do, myself included. I wouldn't put up with it.

From this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
She doesn't necessarily need to give up being with your cousin in order to make amends and rebuild trust. Plenty of poly people stay with the people they cheated with, while they worked on the relationship with the partners they cheated on.
Sounds like "Well, cheating isn't all that bad."

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Sometimes it is impossible to forgive and no reconciliation can be made. But if healing and reconciling the relationship is the goal, then compassion and forgiveness toward both cheater and cheatee (you know, as in not beating oneself up for not seeing or beleiving the warning signs, etc.) is necessary, I believe.
I don't disagree IF both the betrayed and betrayer want to do the work, (of which the betrayer has the majority), it's not productive to keep beating her over the head just to punish her. He may have to express some thoughts and feelings that she won't like. I don't think they can say "Oops" and get a clean slate, as if the offense never happened. (FYI, if you go to jail for breaking into houses, and a housebreaking happens in your area after you've paid your debt to society, guess who they're going to have questions for?)

I empathize with how he's probably feeling. I think he's still more upset than even HE realizes. And he needs to decide WHETHER to work on forgiveness and reconciliation or end things. Either decision has pro and cons so it's up to him. But maybe a little sympathy for a difficult situation?

Last edited by Icewraithonyx; 07-05-2013 at 11:33 PM.
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