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  #121  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:41 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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"What would be the perspective of a person hearing the proposition of most silly unicorn hunter people like myself? What makes it particularly undesirable to consider? I'm still a total newbie so I don't have a very good perspective of how someone else would feel in that situation -- I do get parts of it, but I don't understand why it's as unrealistic as it's stated to beifthecouple was reasonable. That said, please don't insult my retirement plans."

Fair warning, I haven't read most of the responses, mainly just the OP.

I'm a bi female who's not in a primary relationship. A former aspring unicorn myself, actually (couples are hot!). I've been poly since I was a teenager, and have read a TON of individual accounts of poly escapades. And I would run, not walk, away from your proposition. I'll explain.

You don't want to date separately. So, if I'm involved with one of you I must be involved with the other. Yet, many new relationships don't work out in the long run. Some do, of course! If I started a new relationship with both of you, maybe we'd get lucky and one of those relationships would turn into an incredibly important love affair. Something that's imprints itself powerfully on my heart and soul.

But wait -- that doesn't happen often. So the chances that it would happen with both of you are very low. Maybe I wouldn't end up feeling much chemistry with the other one of you at all actually. Maybe I feel downright uncomfortable saying lovey things, or being physical, with the other one of you. But you don't want to date separately.

So now, in order to be with the new love of my life, I also have to try to force a connection with this other person who may be perfectly fine as a friend but isn't my cup of tea as a partner. What a weird, painful, and downright terrible situation I'm now in! If I try to break up with the person I'm not into, our triad is now broken in your eyes. It's not your ideal any more. You're disillusioned with it, or maybe just with me, because you had a goal, a vision, and it "failed". Am I allowed to date anyone new, now that I'm only with one of you? Can the other half of the couple even stand me being around, or is their heart too broken to be able to deal with my presence in the life of their partner? Am I now alone, without either of you, just for being honest, just for the sin of not falling in love twice over? At the very least, if I've moved in, I probably now have to move out. My life, on an emotional level and perhaps a practical level, is now in shambles.

Of course, it could easily happen the other way around. Maybe I DO fall head over heels for both of you... and for a while you think you're both in love with me too! Bliss! But one of you realizes you're not in love after all... you were in love with the idea of me, with the role I was going to play, the niche I was going to fill... but in reality we just don't click. And now we're in just as bad of a pickle. Do you give up your triad-ideal? Or do you kick me to the curb and go looking for the next hot bi babe? Will that possibility be looming over my head the entire time we're together?

The above scenarios are just touching on the main problem with the triad-or-nothing approach. There are a legion of other issues, mainly having to do with power imbalance. For instance, this is supposed to be a closed triad. Let's say the three of us get together, but then an old flame wants to come back into my life, or a new friend wants to be more. You two have the wonderful reassurance and security of the settled comfortable love of your preexisting relationship, plus the terribly exciting, if scary, new love with me. You two got the choice to open up to adding another relationship to your lives when you felt ready. I only get the scary, exciting, new love. I'm not allowed to have a pre-existing partner, and I'm not allowed to follow up on any new opportunities, not allowed to make that choice for myself the way you two did for you.

You have a life together already. It wasn't built for me, for my preferences, habits or hobbies. It was built for the two of you, and you've probably already done a great deal of compromising to make things work where you two differ. Now, on top of that, you're trying to fit me into that carefully-balanced dyad life, trying to wedge me into a space that you are opening up (let's not even get into the fact that there's no option here for YOU to enter a space I've made in MY life, it's instead all about me joining you). It will almost certainly take a LONG time to make the adjustments that will make it truly work for me. It will probably take a very long time for it to feel like my life equally, it may well never. I may never "catch up" to the relationship you two have. It will all feel ideal and equal and perfect, because it was built for you. It won't feel that way to me, I will feel distinctly like the newcomer, the outsider, for a long time. But I'm not allowed to have anyone else. Not allowed to love just one of you either. Is this a scenario where I'm likely to feel natural and comfortable, or where I'm likely to feel trapped?

I could go on, but maybe that's enough for you to see why this wouldn't be attractive to me, and why I would warn any potential unicorn not to consider your offer? NOT because you're bad people. But because I think the structure you're trying to form is an inherently fragile, flawed, and disaster-prone one. Not because triads can't work! But because if a closed triad is your ONLY acceptable outcome, I am the one who is going to suffer, almost inevitably.

You may find a woman who takes you up on your offer. Chances are good she'll be younger, a bit naive, maybe not too independent, because that's the sort of person who is more likely not to see the disadvantages for them that are inherent in this. And, alas, her naivety and emotional immaturity will only make this MORE likely to end in disaster.

Dating with a triad as your end goal is a very bad idea. It puts so much pressure on things, it ruins what could be otherwise beautiful connections. Date separately if you want to be poly. If a triad ends up forming after all, great! But don't be gunning for it. A relationship is like a child. A triad is like the profession of being a lawyer -- it has some good points and some bad points and is very specific. Insisting that your new relationship become a triad is like insisting your child become a lawyer. Why not just let it become whatever it most wants to be?

Does any of that make sense?
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Me, 30ish bi female, been doing solo poly for roughly 5 years. Gia, Clay, and Pike, my partners. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler.

Last edited by AnnabelMore; 06-13-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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  #122  
Old 06-13-2013, 09:29 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default You're right Nycindie

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie
[AND by the way, let's everyone please remember and get it through your heads that "unicorn hunters" is a phrase that means a couple is looking for something mythical that doesn't exist. So, just because a bi woman is, or has been, in a triad doesn't mean she is a unicorn - to call her that doesn't make sense. If she exists, she isn't a unicorn! It isn't a triad, per se, that is mythical. The mythical creature is used to describe the unrealistic fantasies of the unicorn-hunting couple, not the relationship configuration nor the actual woman herself.]
and not every couple goes through the phase, but there are some who justify enforcing that all couples looking for another to form a triad are unicorn hunters at one point in time. Thank God it is online and hopefully any reader is wise enough to know that just because people tell you it's impossible, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Some people have no problem admitting their shortcomings and that others may not have them

But I guarantee that anytime there is a point of contention that cannot be resolved, such as the topic of this thread and the different point of view. There is always something that is not being spoken on that is at the underlying reason for the problem.

Whether the reason for people not being able to talk about doesn't matter, until they are willing to discuss the what goes unspoken, it's round and round they go.

When there is no love between people, there needs to be a level of respect, without respect and honesty (which includes being able to admit one's shortcomings) separating the opposing sides or else finding boundaries they are willing to respect is the only realistic solution.
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  #123  
Old 06-13-2013, 09:49 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Ah, but when it comes to unicorn hunters, haven't we all repeated ourselves incessantly? I think it has to do with people's refusal to comprehend what they don't want to comprehend. Either that or they haven't figured out how to use the search function.
Yes yes, but Annabel is one of the ones with the personal experience of liking couples and having tried it and being in the position of taken most seriously when answering these questions.

The rest of us KNOW we're right, but novices are more likely to BELIEVE someone like Annabel. On paper, anyway. In practice, they are ALL yooneek and THEY will be the ones to come back and say "See? You said it couldn't be done, but we're DOING it! Neener-neener!"

And then they come back and go, "Our unicorn was really a cowgirl!" or something else or they don't come back or maybe they live happily ever after just like in the fairy tales who knows...

When someone (NATJA!!!!) said "successful triads are rare" or whatever it was she said, something with the words "triads are rare" in it - yes, there are quite a few triads in the history of the internet that have lasted maybe more than a year or two. HOWEVER - two things:

1) those are usually the "organic" variety, not the "planned" variety

2) compare that figure to the number of "poly couples" LOOKING for a triad - both ones who haven't had one yet and ones who had one that ended after a short (NRE) time. The number of couples who WISH THEY WERE IN A TRIAD far far outnumbers the number of stable, committed three-way live-in married-type "closed" triads.

This is more or less anecdotal, but even if you just take what sampling is on this forum, it's basically so. I'm not trying to draw a graph or use this to convince people to give me a research grant or anything like that. I have been observing the new threads and thread titles and unless someone can present anecdotal evidence that i am full of shit, i rest my case. For the moment, at least.
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  #124  
Old 06-13-2013, 09:52 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default NO worries Root

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Originally Posted by Root
I assume you're floating the idea of me being a sock? I'm not sure if I should be flattered or a bit worried. I really am a newbie, most of what little I know is from reading these forums and poking through articles online.

That said, I really wasn't hoping to cause much conflict. It's hard to miss the kind of negative attention these threads get if you bother reading the forums a little before posting. I was hoping trying to be somewhat humble would mitigate things and give a chance to get some answers without upsetting people, but I guess I did a poor job of conveying that given some of the responses.

That said, sorry if this seemed "for the fuck of it." My wife and I were genuinely hoping for some non-trivial info or meaningful articles.

And to your later post, it's really fine. You were very polite, I guess I'm just surprised anyone would think that.
I just had to ask, I actually feel that when people are honest and will actually discuss whatever it is they are reluctant to talk about, that any issue can be resolved.

Resolution can come the hard way or the painless easy way, or it can remain unresolved. I believe matters that rear their heads and refuse to go away should be resolved, but I do not agree that the issue should be forced.

I believe that when one party is not willing to resolve whatever they dispute, they should be able to walk away and so long as things are not repeated I believe in allowing mercy.

My questioning you was due to preferring to not beat around the bush, people make mistakes and even those whom I don't respect I have no desire to force them to face their issues unless they naturally come up.

If this topic is allowed to proceed to it's natural resolution I have a hunch some people will feel a little foolish, and just so you know, it isn't you Root. Sometimes when we are wronged we have a desire to seek vengeance, and that is something I am vehemently against.

If it were to happen even though I did honestly attempt to stop it, so be it

Sometimes when the truth comes to light, it can be very embarrassing for certain parties, especially for those who have trouble admitting they are wrong or those who feel that for that it is a bad habit to think you are special or unique. You are unique and special, but not everyone agrees that knowing this is the best way to structure a family or community.

I only asked because I thought it was something that should be addressed from the beginning, before everything plays out, if it is allowed to and then does, carry on Root

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 06-13-2013 at 09:59 PM. Reason: typo
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  #125  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:24 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Sometimes I just post links, including to my own past writings. Sometimes I get worked up and rant afresh (this is ranting for me, generally... ha, just don't get me started on consent or BDSM, those end up as actual rants). Anyway, it just depends on how I feel. It always comes out differently. For instance, the lawyer analogy is new.

Tl;dr: I like to write.
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Last edited by ImaginaryIllusion; 06-14-2013 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Double Posting
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  #126  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:38 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default Psychology, even during these current days

is best described as the equivalent to medical doctors using leeches to cure patients with infectious disease.

It is that far behind all other sciences in any scientific discipline because of the data and the fact that so many human beings either are too afraid to be honest or else they are such strangers to even themselves they literally have no idea who they are.

Peer review does not mean "debated" it means when scientists will honestly review laboratory results without bias, but it does require a level of honesty that is Honest, which means you don't it doesn't depend on how a message is conveyed, it is whether or not the message is meant to confuse or to share info so that they can understand.

Not being truthful or lying is not a valid way to teach lessons, that is closer to abuse than it can be considered teaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boring guy
Yes yes, but Annabel is one of the ones with the personal experience of liking couples and having tried it and being in the position of taken most seriously when answering these questions.

The rest of us KNOW we're right, but novices are more likely to BELIEVE someone like Annabel. On paper, anyway. In practice, they are ALL yooneek and THEY will be the ones to come back and say "See? You said it couldn't be done, but we're DOING it! Neener-neener!"

And then they come back and go, "Our unicorn was really a cowgirl!" or something else or they don't come back or maybe they live happily ever after just like in the fairy tales who knows...

When someone (NATJA!!!!) said "successful triads are rare" or whatever it was she said, something with the words "triads are rare" in it - yes, there are quite a few triads in the history of the internet that have lasted maybe more than a year or two. HOWEVER - two things:

1) those are usually the "organic" variety, not the "planned" variety

2) compare that figure to the number of "poly couples" LOOKING for a triad - both ones who haven't had one yet and ones who had one that ended after a short (NRE) time. The number of couples who WISH THEY WERE IN A TRIAD far far outnumbers the number of stable, committed three-way live-in married-type "closed" triads.

This is more or less anecdotal, but even if you just take what sampling is on this forum, it's basically so. I'm not trying to draw a graph or use this to convince people to give me a research grant or anything like that. I have been observing the new threads and thread titles and unless someone can present anecdotal evidence that i am full of shit, i rest my case. For the moment, at least.
number one, just because you desire something, doesn't mean that it cannot happen "organically"

number two, if you are claiming that there is absolutely nothing behind your words that remains unspoken or at least not addressed I find it hard to believe but I do believe you should be taken at your word. You seem willing to discuss the topic to a certain degree, however it seems more like the topic is not as important as feeling like you can view it in your head as being victorious in a debate.

There is nothing wrong with running a household, or even a community that does not allow for individuals to feel special or unique. But it is not required to have a functional healthy family or community and there is also an opposing view which is that it's healthier to have a community that is allowed to celebrate their uniqueness, but not become vain or use the fact that they are unique in order to justify doing another wrong under the false pretense that their uniqueness is more important or takes precedence.

Maybe it nothing about you or your words and I am confusing sarcasm for seriousness in your words.

I personally have never met a cowboy or a cowgirl who remained a problem once given acid, but the only ethical way to do that is for them to explicitly consent to taking it

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 06-13-2013 at 10:41 PM.
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  #127  
Old 06-13-2013, 11:44 PM
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CreepingButtercup CreepingButtercup is offline
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Hi. I'm the wife. This is my new account.

1. When he says we are happy with the relationship, I think he really means that we're happy with one another, and aren't looking for a person to double as duct tape. But really, expecting no relationship to change is I think a bit silly. Relationships, even traditional mono ones, are going to change, and its not something to fear just a fact of life. We just don't need her to fix our current mess. I'll hire a marriage counselor for that.

2. When I say I am uncomfortable with being a hinge, I think the kicker is twofold: One, I am worried about being able to competently divide attention between both parties fairly particularly since my husband enjoys spending a lot of time with me, and I enjoy spending a lot of time with those I am involved with and I would imagine anyone I click with would be the same. Dating the same person won't fix that, but I wondered if it would lessen one person feeling left out.

I am also concerned that starting off with a 'Vee' in the hopes of a triad. Somehow just feels disingenuous to everyone involved at the moment. That there will always be this pressure to either find my husband attractive or find me attractive when that wasn't quite what was advertised. So, probably thinking not the best idea in the world until I get a better handle on either how to politely indicate that I want something closed, and long-term or using a different approach as others have suggested and let things work out and be more open to alternatives. Also learning better time management skills and knowing how to make sure both people feel special and not ignored.

3. Immediate exclusivity when dating? Yes, but not for the reasons you might imagine. Before I was married, I expected the same from my partners with whom I made clear that I was looking for something long-term, just how I personally choose to date. You young people and your new-fangled ways! Through I will admit, I had not considered that a safe base for the other woman would be quite important when embarking on a relationship where she does not have the power, no matter how unintentional or unwanted as that might be by all parties. I could see how that might be attractive, or even necessary.

I can definitely respect someone for wanting to date in another way for whatever reason they desire. However, I would worry about feeling like I was competing with the other dates to try to capture her interest and her heart if I liked her. This is to say, I do not think I have such a good handle on such things to the point that it would be irresponsible or immature to willingly get into such an arrangement. I don't think this is entirely fair to her or her other partners, and doubly, if not triply so for a husband or other long-term partner.

Perhaps holding off until we both feel comfortable with other arrangements might be wise, to consider that anyone one of us clicks with might not click with the both of us and definitely would not wish to feel trapped or forced. I thank everyone for commenting upon this, in particular AnnabelMore. It certainly helped to understand the situation from the so-called 'third' point of view, and how they might, sadly, be treated as such. We want to share and find someone special, not control nor objectify another person.

4. If it makes anyone feel any better, I had to read a comment a few times to understand there was a TV show regarding this since I am so out of the loop that the loop and I reside in different dimensions. Reminds me of a bit of when a movie features an animal so everyone rushes out to buy one.

And sorry if this post seems argumentative or flippant of advice--I am really looking not to the 'what' of what not to do but the why to really understand how best to approach this as to cause as little drama or offense to others, as well as to understand the issues at hand.
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  #128  
Old 06-14-2013, 12:01 AM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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If you don't want drama, don't cause any, first of all.

Second, be aware that whomever you date will bring their OWN issues to the table, and THAT could cause drama. You really have to know yourself. You have to be honest with yourself and be prepared to treat yourSELF as number one.

WHY?

Because! Because I said so. Because that's how you do it RIGHT. Don't believe me. Go make your own mistakes and find out for yourself. I don't even know why these forums exist. People come here, ask advice, and say "you don't know me! I'm uneek and spayshul! I make up new words for things that already have words! Yay me!"

Yes, yay, you. Go make your mistakes, learn your lessons, and come back here and give people your useless hard-earned advice with the rest of us. Take as long as you need to. We'll wait right here.

(that "you" was the "Royal You" and not aimed only or especially at the Butterfly-cup-woman)
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  #129  
Old 06-14-2013, 01:09 AM
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Dagferi Dagferi is offline
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If your relationship with your husband is so fulfilling why the quest for a third? In my marriage something was missing for me. My husband is one hell of a man. A lot of women would kill for a husband like mine. Yet for me something was missing. All my relationships since my teens I never stayed long. Something was missing. So I would flit from relationship to relationship searching because I was raised you didn't "cheat". My husband being the sage man he is gave me permission to find my happiness. Actually more like he kicked me in the butt and pushed me beyond my comfort zone. Last year I found my boyfriend through the car scene and my friends. He was the piece that was missing. Honestly he probably is about as perfect a match for me than anyone. Yet even he is not the complete package. My husband has those characteristics.

As for the time issue.. welcome to adulthood. You learn where there's a will there's a way. If your husband truly loves you he will allow to make time for another. You will make sure to make time for him. I am 39.. I have to work. Run a household .. have 2 younger children. My husband works second shift with rotating days off. My boyfriend works 12 he midnight shifts with rotating days off. Want to talk about a scheduling nightmare. But we managed to work out a reasonable schedule. I split my time 60/40. We all make sacrifices to make this work. For example my boyfriend is on vacation this week. There's nothing that I want more than be with him as much as possible. But that didn't happen. I had responsible here at my family home. So I have to wait til tomorrow to see him. And my poor husband will be flying solo this weekend because the kids and I will be with Murf.

As for the needing exclusive from the get go. Why should you get to have your cake and eat it too. You have a soft spot to land if things go wrong in your husband. Why should they not be allowed the same. Or someone to spend their time with when you and your hubby need couple time.
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  #130  
Old 06-14-2013, 02:30 AM
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ImaginaryIllusion ImaginaryIllusion is offline
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Exclamation Mod Note:

I'm going to take a moment to direct everyone to the User Guidelines and suggest anyone who needs a refresher takes a look.

I also mention this, because they, along with some other things are likely to start changing in the near to medium term. It seems some have gotten to used to the idea of lively and heated discussion being expected from time to time being an excuse to douse regular discussions in gasoline just because it's not a blog. There has been a divergence from the original intention of this forum as a place for open discussion, and we'll be endeavoring to bring that back around.

Since this thread seems to have everyone's attention at the moment, this is a good a place as any to let everyone know. Apologies to the OP, I'm sure you didn't intend to start a quagmire, but this particular issue seems to be a recurring chronic condition.

As much as I don't like repeating myself, I will here. We don't expect everyone to agree all the time, but we do expect you to treat each other with respect, and maintain some decorum of civilized discussion.
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