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  #31  
Old 06-13-2013, 04:23 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Natja View Post
Three heads will never function the same as two. It just won't.
I just got reminded of this "proverb":

"To really be safe, always carry a bomb on the airplane. The chances of there being one bomb are pretty small, but the chances of two bombs are minuscule. So, by carrying a bomb on the plane with you, the odds of being blown up or taken hostage are astronomically reduced."

It's like a corollary or something when applied to relationships:

"The chances of finding a partner who is compatible with ONE of you is pretty small; but the chances of finding a partner who is compatible with BOTH of you is almost minuscule. So, by carrying the expectation that this will be an "equal triad", the odds of having that actually HAPPEN are astronomically reduced."

I hope you liked that broken-record, too.
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  #32  
Old 06-13-2013, 04:23 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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First of all, you say you desire a closed triad. Do you expect that the bisexual woman you target for your triad will have to be exclusive with you from the start? This is always one of the main sticking points for me with unicorn hunters. In any mono dating situation, exclusivity is not expected from the get-go. There always a period of going out together and getting to know one another before saying, "let's be exclusive." And many relationships end without ever becoming exclusive. Agreeing to exclusivity is almost always a BIG STEP to take in any relationship.

In addition, what if you meet someone who is pretty fucking fantastic and open to the idea of being with both you and your wife, but she is also currently dating other people, testing the waters herself, and doesn't want to be exclusive right away? Maybe even wants to wait six months or more before making an exclusive commitment to anyone? Or what if you meet someone who hits it off with both of you really well and she is also married? Reject that possibility? You only want someone who will eventually move in with you, fuck both of you, and share in the housekeeping? There has to be committed exclusive partnership with both of you and the goal of forever before you will consider dating anyone?

Also, I have learned that different people have different definitions of what "dating" actually is and what they want to get out of it. Are you and your wife clear and in agreement about your definitions? Not just on "dating," but also on the words relationship, romance, love, commitment, etc.?

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Originally Posted by Root View Post
Both of us like our relationship as it is.
Well, that's nice, but a word of caution: don't get too attached to the idea that your relationship with your wife will stay the way it is if either or both of you become involved with someone else! It will change dramatically! This is another ridiculous fantasy many unicorn hunters like to entertain - that the relationship of the existing couple will not change even when they've "added in" someone else. Think about it - how could the dynamics between you two not change? It's not like adding a handbag to an outfit. There would be another human being, with their own personality, baggage, desires, wants, needs, and quirks, intimately involved with each of you, and both of you. NOTHING will ever be the same!

And since you do like your relationship the way it is, why change it up and seek an additional partner?

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Originally Posted by Root View Post
Part of the issue is that my wife says she's uncomfortable taking a relationship beyond a certain point without my involvement . . .
This is a very telling piece of information that really makes a statement. You've said that wanting a close relationship of three is "how you roll," but this reveals a deeper motivation on your part - protecting your wife. Would you ease up on your stance that that is "how you roll" if she were quite comfortable with the idea of being involved separately with someone? Why is she uncomfortable? Is it about feeling disloyal, for example? You two are really not ready for polyamory, or perhaps any kind of non-monogamy, if one of you cannot feel comfortable engaging with another person on a romantic or intimate level without the other. This is the most important issue I would explore in your discussions (or therapy) if I were you. Frankly, it isn't good enough to say, "she isn't comfortable, so we're going to work around her discomfort." The goal should be to become more self-aware and drill down to discover the insecurities and fears underneath the discomfort. This doesn't have to mean that outwardly what you shoot for would look much different, but it is better to have an understanding of what makes her so uncomfortable with that.

Listen, some people take a year or more of investigating polyamory, examining their belief systems, and confronting fears before they ever embark on opening up their relationship. Taking your time, and having a third party listen and mediate (as in therapy) is always a good idea. The best thing to do is go slowly and invest in knowing yourselves better (your inner fears, thought patterns, emotional stability, hopes, dreams, secrets) before you even consider getting involved with an additional person or persons. And if the only reading you've done on this so far has been online resources, I would also recommend books to you. Opening Up by Tristan Taormino is very good. There is a thread here of book recommendations if you do a search.



[AND by the way, let's everyone please remember and get it through your heads that "unicorn hunters" is a phrase that means a couple is looking for something mythical that doesn't exist. So, just because a bi woman is, or has been, in a triad doesn't mean she is a unicorn - to call her that doesn't make sense. If she exists, she isn't a unicorn! It isn't a triad, per se, that is mythical. The mythical creature is used to describe the unrealistic fantasies of the unicorn-hunting couple, not the relationship configuration nor the actual woman herself.]
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Last edited by nycindie; 06-13-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-13-2013, 04:37 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
[AND by the way, let's everyone please remember and get it through your heads that "unicorn hunters" is a phrase that means a couple is looking for something mythical that doesn't exist. So, just because a bi woman is, or has been, in a triad doesn't mean she is a unicorn - to call her that doesn't make sense. If she exists, she isn't a unicorn! It isn't a triad, per se, that is mythical. The mythical creature is used to describe the unrealistic fantasies of the unicorn-hunting couple, not the actual woman herself.]
I'm quoting this. Nobody will read it though. People will still think "unicorn " is a term of endearment and that "unicorn hunters" are misunderstood victims of victim-blaming.
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  #34  
Old 06-13-2013, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by franchescasc View Post
The biggest thing I've learned through all of this-is to pinpoint the source of discomfort and jealousy. Have your wife ask herself WHY she's uncomfortable to be in a relationship past a certain point without your involvement. There's always a root to discomfort and jealousy....and the biggest gift of polyamory for me has been digging deep to pinpoint these within myself and work on them. For example, I was uncomfortable with FJ & MD spending time alone together. For me, it was because I was scared MD would not be interested in me any more. I was scared they would develop a strong bond, and she wouldn't feel the same for me. Honestly, I still struggle with this. I have been able to ask for reassurances from her, and she has given them to me. But ultimately, I am only responsible for my own happiness and reactions. Anyways....I'm starting to ramble but you get the idea. Discomfort has a reason. Instead of eliminating what is making you uncomfortable-figure out the WHY and deal with THAT. It works better than having someone change their behavior to suit you.

This is a good article: http://www.xeromag.com/fvpolyrefrigerator.html
Yeah, got plenty to sit down and talk about when she's less busy, this would admittedly be one of those things. Will probably go over the article at the same time, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lili View Post
My only real advice for OP is:

-feel really confident that you can be honest and communicative with your partner before diving into this.
-just state what to want to potential partners up front. Get used to rejection, as this style of relationship isn't palatable to everyone.
-it helps to acknowledge the pressure being put on any unicorn you court, but still stick firm to what you want
-it really helps that you can spell. Most of the unicorn hunting messages I get on okcupid are unintelligible, so you're already ahead of the game.
-You might want to get your training wheels at a swingers party. Ever thought about that? Those things are usually full of willing unicorns, some open to the idea of poly
-A triad I knew just up and started bringing their third to family functions and acted like it was normal. They didn't come out though. Shrug. If her family is super liberal, I would honestly just give them a chance. Poly is coming into the media a lot more now, becoming normalized, and it gets a lot of positive coverage.
-for god's sake, don't use craigslist
I think I forgot to say: thanks! I'm perfectly willing to use craigslist if you pay me a significant amount beforehand. But, seriously, I do appreciate the suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natja View Post
Oh I wish I could explain to you how very, very egalitarian we were. Genuinely. But as I said, with the greatest amount of education, good will, communication et al. It still can develop into a hellish world of helldom house in hell land.

Three heads will never function the same as two. It just won't.
Yeah. Unfortunately this seems one of those things that threatens to be unavoidable. I'm not sure. The risk doesn't phase me as much as it likely should, it's that kind of ignorance you can only enjoy with a lack of experience, but knowing it exists is worth something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
I just got reminded of this "proverb":

"To really be safe, always carry a bomb on the airplane. The chances of there being one bomb are pretty small, but the chances of two bombs are minuscule. So, by carrying a bomb on the plane with you, the odds of being blown up or taken hostage are astronomically reduced."

It's like a corollary or something when applied to relationships:

"The chances of finding a partner who is compatible with ONE of you is pretty small; but the chances of finding a partner who is compatible with BOTH of you is almost minuscule. So, by carrying the expectation that this will be an "equal triad", the odds of having that actually HAPPEN are astronomically reduced."

I hope you liked that broken-record, too.
I'll take your advice only if I can tell the TSA you told me to do it.
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  #35  
Old 06-13-2013, 06:16 PM
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I agree with others. If you do not want your relationship to change do not go any further.

Trust me my whole life has been turned upside down.
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  #36  
Old 06-13-2013, 06:56 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Dagferi View Post
I agree with others. If you do not want your relationship to change do not go any further.

Trust me my whole life has been turned upside down.
My open relationship has turned my friends' worlds upside-down more than my own. I'm used to my life. Other people have to ask what's going on. I've gotten everything from, "I just don't see the point of you being married if you're not having kids" to "how can you call it a "relationship" if you only see each other a few times per year".

I'm like, "Don't you have to pick up your kid from your ex's place now" and "So when is your boyfriend coming to visit from the UK again?"
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  #37  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:41 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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"What would be the perspective of a person hearing the proposition of most silly unicorn hunter people like myself? What makes it particularly undesirable to consider? I'm still a total newbie so I don't have a very good perspective of how someone else would feel in that situation -- I do get parts of it, but I don't understand why it's as unrealistic as it's stated to beifthecouple was reasonable. That said, please don't insult my retirement plans."

Fair warning, I haven't read most of the responses, mainly just the OP.

I'm a bi female who's not in a primary relationship. A former aspring unicorn myself, actually (couples are hot!). I've been poly since I was a teenager, and have read a TON of individual accounts of poly escapades. And I would run, not walk, away from your proposition. I'll explain.

You don't want to date separately. So, if I'm involved with one of you I must be involved with the other. Yet, many new relationships don't work out in the long run. Some do, of course! If I started a new relationship with both of you, maybe we'd get lucky and one of those relationships would turn into an incredibly important love affair. Something that's imprints itself powerfully on my heart and soul.

But wait -- that doesn't happen often. So the chances that it would happen with both of you are very low. Maybe I wouldn't end up feeling much chemistry with the other one of you at all actually. Maybe I feel downright uncomfortable saying lovey things, or being physical, with the other one of you. But you don't want to date separately.

So now, in order to be with the new love of my life, I also have to try to force a connection with this other person who may be perfectly fine as a friend but isn't my cup of tea as a partner. What a weird, painful, and downright terrible situation I'm now in! If I try to break up with the person I'm not into, our triad is now broken in your eyes. It's not your ideal any more. You're disillusioned with it, or maybe just with me, because you had a goal, a vision, and it "failed". Am I allowed to date anyone new, now that I'm only with one of you? Can the other half of the couple even stand me being around, or is their heart too broken to be able to deal with my presence in the life of their partner? Am I now alone, without either of you, just for being honest, just for the sin of not falling in love twice over? At the very least, if I've moved in, I probably now have to move out. My life, on an emotional level and perhaps a practical level, is now in shambles.

Of course, it could easily happen the other way around. Maybe I DO fall head over heels for both of you... and for a while you think you're both in love with me too! Bliss! But one of you realizes you're not in love after all... you were in love with the idea of me, with the role I was going to play, the niche I was going to fill... but in reality we just don't click. And now we're in just as bad of a pickle. Do you give up your triad-ideal? Or do you kick me to the curb and go looking for the next hot bi babe? Will that possibility be looming over my head the entire time we're together?

The above scenarios are just touching on the main problem with the triad-or-nothing approach. There are a legion of other issues, mainly having to do with power imbalance. For instance, this is supposed to be a closed triad. Let's say the three of us get together, but then an old flame wants to come back into my life, or a new friend wants to be more. You two have the wonderful reassurance and security of the settled comfortable love of your preexisting relationship, plus the terribly exciting, if scary, new love with me. You two got the choice to open up to adding another relationship to your lives when you felt ready. I only get the scary, exciting, new love. I'm not allowed to have a pre-existing partner, and I'm not allowed to follow up on any new opportunities, not allowed to make that choice for myself the way you two did for you.

You have a life together already. It wasn't built for me, for my preferences, habits or hobbies. It was built for the two of you, and you've probably already done a great deal of compromising to make things work where you two differ. Now, on top of that, you're trying to fit me into that carefully-balanced dyad life, trying to wedge me into a space that you are opening up (let's not even get into the fact that there's no option here for YOU to enter a space I've made in MY life, it's instead all about me joining you). It will almost certainly take a LONG time to make the adjustments that will make it truly work for me. It will probably take a very long time for it to feel like my life equally, it may well never. I may never "catch up" to the relationship you two have. It will all feel ideal and equal and perfect, because it was built for you. It won't feel that way to me, I will feel distinctly like the newcomer, the outsider, for a long time. But I'm not allowed to have anyone else. Not allowed to love just one of you either. Is this a scenario where I'm likely to feel natural and comfortable, or where I'm likely to feel trapped?

I could go on, but maybe that's enough for you to see why this wouldn't be attractive to me, and why I would warn any potential unicorn not to consider your offer? NOT because you're bad people. But because I think the structure you're trying to form is an inherently fragile, flawed, and disaster-prone one. Not because triads can't work! But because if a closed triad is your ONLY acceptable outcome, I am the one who is going to suffer, almost inevitably.

You may find a woman who takes you up on your offer. Chances are good she'll be younger, a bit naive, maybe not too independent, because that's the sort of person who is more likely not to see the disadvantages for them that are inherent in this. And, alas, her naivety and emotional immaturity will only make this MORE likely to end in disaster.

Dating with a triad as your end goal is a very bad idea. It puts so much pressure on things, it ruins what could be otherwise beautiful connections. Date separately if you want to be poly. If a triad ends up forming after all, great! But don't be gunning for it. A relationship is like a child. A triad is like the profession of being a lawyer -- it has some good points and some bad points and is very specific. Insisting that your new relationship become a triad is like insisting your child become a lawyer. Why not just let it become whatever it most wants to be?

Does any of that make sense?
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Last edited by AnnabelMore; 06-13-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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  #38  
Old 06-13-2013, 09:29 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default You're right Nycindie

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie
[AND by the way, let's everyone please remember and get it through your heads that "unicorn hunters" is a phrase that means a couple is looking for something mythical that doesn't exist. So, just because a bi woman is, or has been, in a triad doesn't mean she is a unicorn - to call her that doesn't make sense. If she exists, she isn't a unicorn! It isn't a triad, per se, that is mythical. The mythical creature is used to describe the unrealistic fantasies of the unicorn-hunting couple, not the relationship configuration nor the actual woman herself.]
and not every couple goes through the phase, but there are some who justify enforcing that all couples looking for another to form a triad are unicorn hunters at one point in time. Thank God it is online and hopefully any reader is wise enough to know that just because people tell you it's impossible, doesn't mean it can't be done.

Some people have no problem admitting their shortcomings and that others may not have them

But I guarantee that anytime there is a point of contention that cannot be resolved, such as the topic of this thread and the different point of view. There is always something that is not being spoken on that is at the underlying reason for the problem.

Whether the reason for people not being able to talk about doesn't matter, until they are willing to discuss the what goes unspoken, it's round and round they go.

When there is no love between people, there needs to be a level of respect, without respect and honesty (which includes being able to admit one's shortcomings) separating the opposing sides or else finding boundaries they are willing to respect is the only realistic solution.
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  #39  
Old 06-13-2013, 09:49 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Ah, but when it comes to unicorn hunters, haven't we all repeated ourselves incessantly? I think it has to do with people's refusal to comprehend what they don't want to comprehend. Either that or they haven't figured out how to use the search function.
Yes yes, but Annabel is one of the ones with the personal experience of liking couples and having tried it and being in the position of taken most seriously when answering these questions.

The rest of us KNOW we're right, but novices are more likely to BELIEVE someone like Annabel. On paper, anyway. In practice, they are ALL yooneek and THEY will be the ones to come back and say "See? You said it couldn't be done, but we're DOING it! Neener-neener!"

And then they come back and go, "Our unicorn was really a cowgirl!" or something else or they don't come back or maybe they live happily ever after just like in the fairy tales who knows...

When someone (NATJA!!!!) said "successful triads are rare" or whatever it was she said, something with the words "triads are rare" in it - yes, there are quite a few triads in the history of the internet that have lasted maybe more than a year or two. HOWEVER - two things:

1) those are usually the "organic" variety, not the "planned" variety

2) compare that figure to the number of "poly couples" LOOKING for a triad - both ones who haven't had one yet and ones who had one that ended after a short (NRE) time. The number of couples who WISH THEY WERE IN A TRIAD far far outnumbers the number of stable, committed three-way live-in married-type "closed" triads.

This is more or less anecdotal, but even if you just take what sampling is on this forum, it's basically so. I'm not trying to draw a graph or use this to convince people to give me a research grant or anything like that. I have been observing the new threads and thread titles and unless someone can present anecdotal evidence that i am full of shit, i rest my case. For the moment, at least.
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  #40  
Old 06-13-2013, 09:52 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default NO worries Root

Quote:
Originally Posted by Root
I assume you're floating the idea of me being a sock? I'm not sure if I should be flattered or a bit worried. I really am a newbie, most of what little I know is from reading these forums and poking through articles online.

That said, I really wasn't hoping to cause much conflict. It's hard to miss the kind of negative attention these threads get if you bother reading the forums a little before posting. I was hoping trying to be somewhat humble would mitigate things and give a chance to get some answers without upsetting people, but I guess I did a poor job of conveying that given some of the responses.

That said, sorry if this seemed "for the fuck of it." My wife and I were genuinely hoping for some non-trivial info or meaningful articles.

And to your later post, it's really fine. You were very polite, I guess I'm just surprised anyone would think that.
I just had to ask, I actually feel that when people are honest and will actually discuss whatever it is they are reluctant to talk about, that any issue can be resolved.

Resolution can come the hard way or the painless easy way, or it can remain unresolved. I believe matters that rear their heads and refuse to go away should be resolved, but I do not agree that the issue should be forced.

I believe that when one party is not willing to resolve whatever they dispute, they should be able to walk away and so long as things are not repeated I believe in allowing mercy.

My questioning you was due to preferring to not beat around the bush, people make mistakes and even those whom I don't respect I have no desire to force them to face their issues unless they naturally come up.

If this topic is allowed to proceed to it's natural resolution I have a hunch some people will feel a little foolish, and just so you know, it isn't you Root. Sometimes when we are wronged we have a desire to seek vengeance, and that is something I am vehemently against.

If it were to happen even though I did honestly attempt to stop it, so be it

Sometimes when the truth comes to light, it can be very embarrassing for certain parties, especially for those who have trouble admitting they are wrong or those who feel that for that it is a bad habit to think you are special or unique. You are unique and special, but not everyone agrees that knowing this is the best way to structure a family or community.

I only asked because I thought it was something that should be addressed from the beginning, before everything plays out, if it is allowed to and then does, carry on Root

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 06-13-2013 at 09:59 PM. Reason: typo
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