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  #21  
Old 01-22-2010, 10:59 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Essentially he has prostituted you out so that he can get off in women he thinks are sexy...
RP,

Unfortunately the whole post I clipped this from is pretty much dead on in it's ugliness and bluntness. The potential for this in the whole BDSM thing has always been the reason I in particular and my wife to a somewhat lesser degree (she enjoys some LIMITED D/s play) have never been attracted to that lifestyle. The risks just seemed too great. I'm sure that those of you all that HAVE been heavily involved in this lifestyle can vouch that stories like (or similar) to this are more common than we'd want. BDSM involvement takes a special type of person and a LOT of education.
People have and DO die from this lifestyle !

That all being said, I think recovery CAN come from this ! I truly do.
I hope you guys CAN pull together and take something as starkly ugly as this and use it as fuel for forging a stronger -albeit different - relationship.

Our thoughts are with you.........

GSs
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  #22  
Old 01-22-2010, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
Add to this the most common feminine perspective that sex should only (or primarily) occur in a closely bonded environment and you have the foundations of the conflict.
I would like to suggest that it isn't a feminine perspective per sa, but A perspective... My men are very much of the opinion that there must be a bond before they have sex with anyone. I also believe that women in general seem to need a bond first. I would suggest that it is they that are being entered most of the time... something about entering anothers body and being entered. I don't want to go off on a tangent so I will leave it there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
I don't know how much involvement you have in the BDSM community, but I know the one where I live has support groups and mentors. I think that could be valuable to both of you.

If your other relationships love you, they will be willing to be patient while you work on things with your husband.

Perhaps you could try physical contact for the sake of physical contact--cuddling but knowing that there will be no sex afterward. Schedule time for intimacy--not sex, but talking just to each other, cuddling, paying attention to each other with no distractions. It doesn't seem romantic to schedule it, but it helps build the habit and frankly, scheduling it is better than not having it. Also, scheduling it helps prevent blame--if it's on the schedule, then no one can say, "you're always on the computer" or "you're never home in time" or even "I just couldn't fit it in". My marriage was in serious trouble last summer, and we (with the help of our fabulous girlfriend) said 11 o'clock was cuddle time, no excuses, TV off, no computer. Drop everything and just do it. It sounded stupid, but it worked.

Try reading The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman.
All very good points Lemondrop and I will keep in mind all of these.

I have also read and used the five love language and found it very easy to read and it got to the point quickly. All three of us have learned about each other greatly from that book and have noticed how our requirements for being loved change and flow over time. It's important to note those changes and go with them.

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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
how SHE views it - going forward will be important.
I agree with you GS. I think it's important to feel the trauma, and then work towards healing without getting too caught up in becoming a life long victim of what happened. There are huge lessons to be learned from this and they won't be learned if midnight decides to stay a victim in it. The point is to move forward and become knowledgable about yourself and become something more... stronger, more ocnfident and assured of yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.
I am glad to hear that he has some feelings towards the situation that respects you. It sounds like he has a lot of soul searching to do and has his own path to take in knowing himself better and healing perhaps from his own issues that caused him to act the way he did.

Good for him for taking the first step and having compassion for you. Now lets see what he does with that information... if he lets it slide and says he has changed having not done any work I would be wary as that is the path that abusers take. There is a whole excuse of "I was in a moment and it won't happen again"... it can and often does happen over and over again, putting the woman in a cycle of taking the abuse and becoming more deeply emeshed in the cycle. It can spiral to become worse and worse in time.

Perhaps looking into the cycle of abuse will be helpful. I think that this is possibly very much on the verge of becoming an abusive cycle. Time will tell. If you are finding yourself reacting to what I have just said with, "she doesn't know what she is talking about" then I would suggest you are already in the cycle. Just look into it. Prove me wrong. I love to be proved wrong.

My mum started and ran a center for battered women when I was a child. I was raised being involved with the women and children in that house and am very familiar with the cycle of abuse as a result. I also studied the cycle at university and was involved for a time after university in the same house my mum started. I am not talking out of my ass. Please. go ahead and prove me wrong. I will be the first to say you are right and I am wrong if that is the case.
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  #23  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:36 AM
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you mean you will be the first to say I am wrong and you are right IN THAT CASE.
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  #24  
Old 01-23-2010, 01:13 AM
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you mean you will be the first to say I am wrong and you are right IN THAT CASE.
Oops, yes, changing that
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  #25  
Old 01-23-2010, 04:31 AM
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Default Still here...

I'm processing everyone's posts. So is my husband. Please don't think we're ignorning the thread, will respond soon!
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  #26  
Old 01-23-2010, 06:21 AM
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I said I'd work on what I think would be BEST. And so-I have. I'm not sure where the BEST place to start is, so bare with me on how long this is. I fear I may be back with more later as well.

And I'm confident that in my response that I am going much further out on "the limb" then RP did (or could). So please keep in mind that you both ASKED for ANY AND ALL input and said you would VALUE it as well "especially" mine.

I don't know how to break down the multi quotes AND keep the name of who wrote it in there, so I will add the names.

Quote:
(midnight sun) Background: I have *always* been an extremely sensitive, emotionally intuitive person.
I beg to differ. I think you are a very sensitive person, however you aren't REALLY an emotionally intuitive person, which would mean that you seem to KNOW a persons true feelings without being told; you tend to be too much of an optimist to TRULY intuit a persons emotions/intentions/thoughts. You often miss the clues that go "against the grain" of your natural optimistic outlook.
This has a HORRIBLE tendency to bite you in the ass on many occassions. Too many that I've personally witnesssed, and plenty that were in fact with me.

Quote:
(ms)I have always reserved sexual interaction for individuals with whom I feel a deep attraction and "chemistry" with and with whom I have developed a preliminary bond.
What does "sexual interaction" mean to you?
What does "deep attraction" and "chemistry" mean to you?
What does "preliminary bond" mean to you?

I ask, because it's become evident to me recently-that whatever your understanding of these words is, it's not the same as mine, so I can't speak to this paragraph without asking for clarification.

Quote:
(ms)I also prefer to have developed (or at least forsee developing) a meaningful bond with them.
THIS strikes me as a HUGE question mark. I can't define exactly why-but it does. I wonder what it is you mean by "developed OR foresee developing" because that seems like it would be a confusing thing for your husband (or any potential partners) to keep straight and understand. At what point can you or they "foresee" a "meaningful bond" developing and therefore know that it's ok to proceed with some sort of sexual interaction?

Is there some limit of sexual interaction here?
Like ok, I feel like we get along well so kissing is ok, but not intercourse or I feel like we understand each other now so it's ok for cunnilingus but not fellatio or what?

This is so vague that it would be damn near to impossible for your husband, a bf (or gf) or Dom or whatever to be able to make any move within this "boundary". It is simply not clear cut enough.

Quote:
(ms)About 4 years ago we began discussing the idea of involving other people in our sex life. I advised him then that I am "not capable" of having sex with someone that I don't feel that attraction, chemistry and preliminary emotional bond with. I placed that as a requirement on me participating in any sexual encounters with others, male or female.
This is clear cut. No sexual encounters for you with anyone else unless YOU identify that you are attracted (whatever that means to you), have chemistry (whatever that means to you) and a preliminary emotional bond (whatever that means to you).
But I wonder-were there "compromises" in some choices that may have led to a breakdown of communication which in turn led him to believe that you changed your mind? (not saying there WAS, just saying you need to look into that possibility too)

Quote:
(ms)Given that boundary, there shouldn't have been an issue. However, as I mentioned in my introductory post, Stewy's criteria of attraction are far wider than mine and, although he is not into "casual" sex with people he doesn't care anything for, he is capable of developing a preliminary bond much faster with a far larger demographic of individuals.
Not sure why this matters. I don't remember you writing anywhere that you said HE could not sleep with anyone he felt comfortable having sex with. YOU were not going to have sex with anyone who didn't meet your 3 requirements...

Quote:
(ms)Further complicating the situation is the fact that I'm submissive by nature.
Be it what it is, this is still YOUR responsibility to handle. In the big scheme of things you are responsible for taking care of YOUR OWN NEEDS and PROTECTING yourself from harm at all times, in all situations, with all people. There are no excuses for not doing this as a healthy, fully functional, intelligent adult.

Quote:
(ms)It is my driving force to wish to please others and to take pleasure in the process of them getting their needs met, my husband and my children being those people who's needs are most important to me, to the point of being paramount to my own.
While common-this is NOT A HEALTHY BEHAVIOR OR OUTLOOK. We (women) just as much as ANY other person, MUST TAKE CARE OF OUR OWNSELF before we can take care of another. When we allow ourselves to abuse our own selves-we TEACH OTHERS BY EXAMPLE that abusing us is not only acceptable, but preferential.

Quote:
(ms)Unfortunately, neither of us did much research into D/S at that point.
Already addressed, BUT again, when we're talking about two fully functional, intelligent adults, there is no excuse for agreeing to roles and activities together that you didn't research TOGETHER for dangers and to be sure there was clear understanding BETWEEN you.

Quote:
(ms)When my husband became attracted to individuals that I did NOT, and time began to drag on with no potential partners meeting my "high standards" he began to get frustrated.
Not really pertinent. He had the ability to discuss this with you. You had the ability to work with him on compromises. But beyond negotiating for freedom to explore on his own, this isn't really pertinent.
That said-it should be noted that many a person has talked on this board about significant others who SAY they are ok with poly and yet insist on setting requirements so impossible for their spouse to ACTUALLY be polyamorous. It would be a good idea for BOTH of you to consider this in terms of how you treat one another. If EITHER of you (or BOTH of you) are making demands that create an "impossiblity" for the other to "explore" sexually with others without "breaking your rules for them"-you are playing a very unhealthy game of manipulation.
(this is worthy of a WHOLE other thread so I'll drop it for now)

Quote:
(ms)He put pressure on me to lower my standards and stop being so "picky."
IMHO-this in and of itself is ok. The problem is "what the hell is picky?" As I already said-it's a common issue for a "less open" person to create rules/stipulations that are so impossible as to cause the "more open" person distress in the situation. It would be GOOD for you to look into this and ensure that your limitations were ONLY upon YOURSELF and not upon him.
HE should look into this and ensure that what he was demanding was ONLY pertinent to HIMSELF and not you (sounds like he was making a demand pertinent to your participation, but if you in turn had said only couples sex with others, then he wouldn't have a choice)

Quote:
(ms)As my "Dom" he gave me instructions that if I had an "opportunity" or we had an "opportunity" to have an encounter with someone I felt "comfortable" with, to take it.
How do you define "comfortable"?
How does HE define "comfortable"?
Because if you both define it as (that list you made of 3 things) then I don't see where you would have a problem if you were told to take an opportunity to be with someone who met those 3 requirements...

OR if you define it that way and he doesn't-then you had a responsibility to let him know that he was breaking boundary rules and that was NOT acceptable.

OR if he defines it that way-but you didn't, again you had the responsibility to clarify and not allow yourself to break a boundary rule based on your misunderstanding.

OR if NEITHER of you define it that way-you had a responsibility again to put your foot down and not allow your boundary to be breached.

That said-

HE had a responsibility to understand (whether by research or whatever other method) that when he takes the role of a "Dom" he takes on the same level of responsibility for his actions in regards to you as a scoutmaster to a scout or a priest to his parishioner. He has a RESPONSIBILITY to understand that as a "Dom" he CAN NOT tell you to do something without THINKING ABOUT ALL OF THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES FIRST.
Also-he has a responsibility to understand, that by breaching your boundaries he automatically negates his authority and as I mentioned on the phone, there are a number of different BDSM groups that require "membership" and an act such as that is a GROSS ABUSE of authority and would result in being kicked out of not only THAT group, but likely any nearby groups as well..
And last as RP said-it's the equivalent of reducing your purpose to that of a prostitute which is beyond disrespectful and not only inappropriate in terms of BDSM or marriage, but in terms of ANY relationship between two caring people.
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  #27  
Old 01-23-2010, 06:23 AM
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(ms)Wanting to please him, wanting him to be fulfilled, I crossed a threshold I never should have crossed with people with whom I was NOT attracted to, did NOT have chemistry with and had NO bond with whatsoever.
THAT was a GROSS NEGLECT of your own responsibility to yourself.

He WAS wrong for pushing you to, but no more or less wrong then you were for allowing yourself to. (NOT saying he is not FULLY responsible for his gross misconduct in pushing you to-but that was addressed in my last paragraph)

One must FIRST respect THEMSELF before they can give over their trust to ANYONE else to protect them (and their own self respect).

Quote:
(ms)That was a couple of years ago and since then, I have crossed that threshold repeatedly.
This is a clear-cut sign that you REALLY need to see a therapist AND so does he, separately. As noted by Mono. To allow yourself to REPEATEDLY disrespect yourself in such a HUGE manner shows a HUGE issue with your own ability to properly prioritize yourself in respect to ANYONE else in life. This NEEDS to be addressed before you can have a functional, healthy relationship WITH ANYONE in ANY form (lover, husband, Dom, friend, child, parent etc)

Quote:
(ms)The result being that the connection between sex and emotional bonding was severed for me... however I was not fully AWARE of the disconnect until this week. When I realized the full extent of it, I was devastated.
I think that you ought be more devastated over the reality that you allowed yourself to be raped repeatedly for the same basic, non-essential and basically unimportant reason (he saying to).

IF one believes that their "deeper soul" self, most commonly found through emotions and artistic outlets is more important than their bodies (as you often say you do...) THEN rape of their deeper soul is more a RAPE then if it were their physical body and therefore MUCH MORE DAMAGING.And a Dom telling a sub to break a boundary-is FIRST a rape of their soul, in the case of sex-it's then ALSO a rape of the body.

Quote:
(ms)To make matters worse, it became clear to me that the disconnect wasn't compartmentalized... it had carried over into the sexual and emotional aspects of my marriage as well.
Actually I dare say it was the other way around. Your disconnect started with him. Then it carried over into the sexual and emotional relationships you had outside of your marriage as well (including with me).
(You didn't simply disconnect emotions from sex. You disconnected emotionally. I think if you REALLY look into what I'm saying-and keep reading the personal messages I've been working to send you to explain where I am and why I am having issues in relationship to OUR relationship-you'll see what I mean.)

Quote:
(ms)I have no clue where to begin to try and repair the damage, or whether it's even repairable.
It is repairable. Been there, done that. It's NOT easy, it's NOT fast and it IS a LOT of work. But it can be done.

For your side-you need to
1. STOP having sex WITH ANYONE until and unless YOU FEEL THAT CONNECTION THAT YOU WANT AND ITS ON YOUR OWN TERMS. EVERYONE.

2. Talk to the therapist about dealing with this issue of "subbing" yourself out to anyone who shows even a remotely "dominating" personality with NO CONSIDERATION FOR YOUR OWN WELL BEING-as that is a very co-dependent and self-destructive behavior.
It MIGHT be related to the ADD, it IS related to your lack of TRUE self-esteem.

For his side,
1. Talk to the therapist about what makes him have such low self-esteem that he needs to dominate conversations, order people around or make them feel inferior to him by belittling them in order to feel secure. (as you aren't the only person he does this with-it's a bigger issue then this example you've posted).

2. He needs to research you. Seriously-he needs to LEARN you. Every little iota of what makes YOU everything you are.
What do you LOVE? LOATHE? Like? Hate? Need? Want? Miss? Long for? Hope to avoid? Colors? Tastes? Scents? Activities? (that list I emailed you is a VERY SLIM start) Foods? Drinks? special memories? Special dreams? Special fears? Who moves (good and bad ways)you? When? How? Why? What moves you (good and bad ways)? When? How? Why? I could go forever on this list! It's not exhaustive-but making it would be..... you guessed it, exhausting! It's HIS job to do it and find the info-if you want to work this out-it's your job to ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS HONESTLY-but it's his job to ask.

This does NOT work if you just jump up and offer him all of the info up front. THAT doesn't build your trust or faith in him AND it doesn't make him do the dirt work that will teach him how PRECIOUS a commodity that type of knowledge is.

Quote:
(ms)He and I have been discussing finding permanent polyamorous partners up until this point, and now we're completely confused about whether that would help or hurt the situation.
No person (or couple) should EVER try to start a relationship with another person until they themselves are on solid footing. It's not loving to reach out to another when you yourself are flailing. It would be like if you were drowning AND calling your child to come in the water to you. Totally ridiculous image yes? Exactly the same image I have of two people who are flailing in themselves reaching out to have others join them....

Quote:
(ms)Up until now, neither of us have had any long-term secondary sexual partners that we've had a deep bond with.
Resistance.. OMG resistance LR.
WTF are YOU doing with a BF at all if you have no deep bond!!!!!!! PLEASE re-read all of this and answer it for yourself. The question is rhetorical as far as I'm concerned, I don't need the answer, I already KNOW it.

Quote:
(ms)I have formed emotional bonds to other non-sexual partners, and I have FWB's that have been primarily sexual but they are both FRIENDS with whom I at least feel *some* connection.
So help me out is *some* good enough FOR YOU???
Because you SAY it's not.
IF it's really not-WTF are you doing?


Quote:
(ms)So, the crux of the debate is... the Disconnect (as I call it) happened not within the context of one-on-one sex with my husband and I. It happened in the context of non-monogamy.
Falty reasoning AND I beg to differ.
I won't repeat-but per our phone conversation-this is NOT true. It quite certainly started PRIOR to non-monogomy coming into play.
Furthermore-regardless of WHEN it started it was triggered BY the issues of lack of the following: respect, trustworthiness, honesty, protection, loyalty, kindness, compassion, security and promotion and acceptance of self-growth IN YOUR MARRIAGE.
Therefore-the problem is a MARITAL problem, not a "non-monogomy" problem.

Quote:
(ms)So, if we "close" our marriage to the possibility of polyamory and exclude possible sexual interaction with others that I have a deep bond with, would it still be possible to reconnect the association between sex and emotional bonding for me?
THAT would be stupid.
Bolding by me, possibilities in life are endless and closing off future possibilities for anything is stupid.

That would be like me saying that the POSSIBILITY of a monogomous relationship in my future is CLOSED OFF. Absurd, if Maca died, and there wasn't anyone else I was in love with-I would be in a monogomous relationship with GG. If GG died and there wasn't anyone else I was in love with-I would be in a monogomous relationship with Maca.

HOWEVER-for NOW you need to back up and work ON YOURSELF and he needs to back up and work on HIMSELF. The focus shouldn't be on ANYONE ELSE, nor should it be on the "marriage" at this point. You both need to fix YOURSELVES first, then you work on the marriage.
THEN when the marriage is stable, you can DISCUSS the possibillity of polyamory, swinging, BDSM etc.

Underlining by me-
You need to REBUILD TRUST before you can RECONNECT these things.
You need to FOSTER the connection-where ever you have it-WITHOUT sex first. Use your experience of what "triggers" that sense of connection within you and the ensuing DESIRE to SHARE IT MORE INTIMATELY to help you recreate it with your husband in non-sexual ways.
THEN when you have that sense of connection FULL TIME with him in the non-sexual realm, then YOU can start instigating sexual behaviors with him WHEN YOU FEEL THE DESIRE TO SHARE THE CONNECTION MORE INTIMATELY.
NOT when he wants it!!
It has to be WHEN YOU FEEL it.

Quote:
Also, there's clearly a trust issue that now needs to be resolved because I entrusted Stewy with considering my emotional needs and psychological well-being as my Dom and was let down... repeatedly (even tho I reiterrated my needs to him frequently.)
More work, more time, the above suggestions will start that process. Skipping them, will doom it. You may be able to create a SENSE that it's "all ok" for awhile-but that would be behavior of a TYPICAL cycle of abuse as RP pointed out.
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Last edited by LovingRadiance; 01-23-2010 at 09:03 AM. Reason: clarify confusing sentence.
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  #28  
Old 01-23-2010, 06:23 AM
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My instinct is that I need to address the problem where it began... outside of our marriage.
NOT where it started.
You instinctively want to go where you know you are safe. Purely animalistic, self-defense mechanism, no different from Maca wanting to go to his dad when he's having issue.
You don't feel safe inside of the marriage.
You haven't BEEN safe inside of the marriage.
If it's fixable-it's only fixable inside of the marriage.
THE DISCONNECT can be fixed outside of the marriage, but the marriage can only be fixed from within and the disconnect is only a SYMPTOM of the issues within the marriage.
SO-if you JUST want the connection back-get a divorce.
IF you want the marriage AND the connection back-you have to fix it INSIDE of the marriage and it will likely take a few years of CONSCIOUS, CONCERTED, DAILY effort.

Quote:
(ms)That I need to find at least one other partner and for sex with that person to ONLY be associated with a deep, emotional connection.
You NEED to not have sex until you figure out how to BE SURE that YOU will ALWAYS keep YOU safe no matter what. It's not your partners job to keep you safe FOR you, it's their job to BACK YOU UP in keeping yourself safe.

Therefore you need to continue to build deep emotional connections-AND WORK ON YOURSELF with a therapist WITH NO SEX. NONE. Until your therapist can say that YOU are capable of properly caring for yourself.
They make these great little vibrating toys-become friends with it for now.

AND yes I know "he feels love through sex". He needs to get to a therapist and solve his issues without sex as well.

Quote:
(ms)It would probably help if sex between my husband and I ONLY happened when there is a simultaneous emotional connection between us. I see that as being hard to accomplish given that he has a much higher sex drive than me and my nature being to want to please him and give him what he needs, even if it's to my own detriment.
If you both REALLY want to fix this emotional disconnectedness-sex will HAVE to happen ONLY when there is a simultaneous emotional connection between you.

Quote:
(ms)He fears that if I have lost that association with him, and I find it with another person, that it will prevent me from being able to repair my bond with him. He fears further damage to our marriage and losing each other altogether.
Making decisions in fear isn't generally a good idea. BUT I tend to agree with him as explained previously.
BUT-if you try to solve it by making love and NOT addressing the things noted previously-it will also prevent you from TRULY repairing and creating that bond with him and further damage your marriage etc.

Quote:
(ms)What if it can only be repaired outside our marriage?
Not the case.

Quote:
(ms)What if it can't be repaired?
It can, but are you willing to ACTUALLY put in the HOURS, DAYS, MONTHS, YEARS required???

Quote:
(ms)What if it can be repaired within our marriage but additional relationships would neither hurt nor help?
Not really pertinent-sex won't help regardless of who it is right now (in or out of the marriage) and everyone needs additional relationships of SOME SORT. So you both need to create outside additional relationships that are not sexual, but have deep, meaning for each of you (and the other people), close, connected bonds, and promote healthy and productive growth in yourselves.

Quote:
(ms)What if repairing it outside our marriage makes him feel insecure?
Can't be done, so it doesn't matter.
BUT he needs to deal with his insecurities. They are HIS problem and HIS responsibility to resolve. He might ought to check out www.xeromag.com about that and if that isn't clear enough for him-or he wants MORE info, PM Ceoli on where to find more articles by that guy. Mono suggests the book I already told you about a lot ( I have two copies).
The therapist can work with him if he's willing to take responsibility and say "I have this issue" instead of continuing to push it off on "this action makes me insecure" (which isn't the way it works anyway).


Quote:
(ms)Who's needs do we prioritize?
You each need to individually prioritize YOUR OWN NEEDS while committing to "do no harm" to one another in the process. That does not mean "well it's harmful to him to not have sex, so I have to give it to him". It's HARMFUL for you to continue to placate the underlying issues that leave him only feeling loved when he gets sex AND it's harmful to you to continue having sex when you don't want it and are allowing yourself to be used for his needs IN SPITE of your own.

Quote:
I discussed your concern w/Stewy and he responded that the purpose of posting for input was exactly for that... input. That we need, and will value ALL input. Especially yours.
Our goal is that the bond be repaired, HOW it gets repaired is of secondary importance. So, we BOTH welcome any and all perspectives.
One can only hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
I've got to admit I am way out of my depth and think much differently about the fragility of connection. I do believe others can take that away and have experienced this in short term and long term ways. My recommendation..seek professional help. Counselling with the right person did wonders for me. All too often people try desperately to avoid the help of pros. Keep that option in mind.
Mono
Bolding by me, great advice there.
Obviously I don't necessarily agree with Mono in theory, but the bottom line is the same.
I think that I should clarify-I don't believe that an outside person can destroy a connection between you and your husband without YOU or HE allowing it.
BUT if you or he allows it-then yes, I agree with Mono. Unfortunately MOST people don't know HOW to "now allow" it. I forget that sometimes, as it's something I've mastered. BUT-the bottom line is-get therapy, it DOES help if you put yourself into it 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Hi there. I just read this and frankly it has sent a chill down my spine. I feel like I want to vomit when I think of a dom making you have sex with people you don't want to. Speaking as a dom I would NEVER do that. I am absolutely appalled and speachless. You'll have to what for my response.
RP, from the heart. No, she doesn't know you, either of you. Any of us.
BUT, she speaks as Stewy's "equal" in the D/s world and that alone should earn her a great deal of respect. As an EDUCATED and MORE EXPERIENCED Dom, her opinion should be critically important to you, both of you.
ESPECIALLY when taken in context with OTHER posts on this board (by Mono) about her AS A DOM.

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(rp)It sounds like you made it clear from the beginning that you have certain criteria for having sexual relationships with people. Whether or not your husband is good at "developing a preliminary bond much faster" has no bearing on that, or shouldn't in my opinion. You should of done some research into D/s before hand. Anyone starting out should. If you wanted to know how to belly dance you would go and take a class, sure you can shimmy your hips around, but if you do that too much you can hurt your back... the same goes for BDSM, only it can damage you psychologically, as you have found out.
Bolding by me. Again, as being more experienced at BDSM AND polyamory, her advice should be respected at least until such time as you have more knowledge and experience in the topic at hand.

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(rp)High standards mean you are taking care of yourself sexually, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't. Your body and mind were telling you something with those "high standards" and that is that it wasn't good for you to get into what was being offered... because it would be damaging.
VERY important-ALL OF US MUST take care of ourselves first and we NEED to listen to our "inner" selves when they tell us something.
Sometimes it's wrong-but we need to LISTEN and then we need to correct. But not just ignore and click "override".

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(rp)You didn't listen to yourself first, but chose to listen to your husband. Any sub will tell you that the bottom line is that you have to be okay with what is going on... the point is to be energetically charged and excited about being submissive, not damaged.
I dare to correct, any EXPERIENCED and/or HEALTHY sub...
(and at least one has)

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(rp)You were not being "picky" you were listening to your self at that point and that deserved some respect. He didn't respect that. He disrespected you. He didn't cherish your safety, he abused his authority over you. He should never of dictated that you should take any "opportunity" that comes along if you were telling him you weren't comfortable.
You didn't respect you.
He didn't respect you.
By your own admission this was a continual problem.
The cause of those two things MUST be addressed DEEPLY first. DEEPLY-meaning THE BOTTOMLINE cause of lack of respect. Not the "well I felt like you wanted" cause-the REAL UNDERLYING CAUSE in both cases.

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(rp) There should of been a change in your relationship if he was frustrated. It should of been talked out so that you both had your needs met and were safe and the boundaries were clear.
There should have BEEN boundaries AND they should have been renegotiated. Going forward there MUST be boundaries and they will need renegotiated as you each grow, learn and move forward towards true connection and trust.

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(rp)Essentially he has prostituted you out so that he can get off...
The details of with whom are ABITRARY. But the point is not.
AND
the other point is-you allowed it.

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(rp)Not only that but you were violated by others because of him.
The point is valid again.
AND
You allowed it.
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Last edited by LovingRadiance; 01-23-2010 at 09:18 AM. Reason: to fix a quote that wasn't in a quote box
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  #29  
Old 01-23-2010, 06:24 AM
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(rp)That is no way to treat a woman you love.
That is no way to treat ANYONE you love. That is no way to treat ANYONE period. Either allowing abuse or abusing is no way to show love. (I had this exact conversation with Maca because I said-if I KNOW it's abuse I am responsible to say, BUT if saying creates a breakdown of a relationship she is dependent on... which is MORE loving? THUS such a long time frame between you asking me why I was not socializing and when I started writing background answers)

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(rp)I would wonder if he even loves you, or knows how to love.
Bingo. As I said about Tina-she BELIEVES with all she knows that she loves Maca, but the truth is-that she doesn't know LOVE and doesn't LOVE herself and therefore CAN NOT LOVE Maca.
Same problem.


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(rp)well of course it would, because you went against what everything in your body said was wrong.... you weren't seeing yourself as a thing of beauty, that needed to be preserved for special moments of bonding and connection that make you feel cherished, adored, admired for who you are. You lost your integrity and sense of being a mystery to others that should be guarded and the secret given to those you respect and who respect you. Your specialness was taken away from you.
Bingo!
Bingo!
Bingo!
READ THIS UNTIL IT SINKS IN TO YOUR SOUL MS.

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(rp)Why would you feel special to your husband if he has treated you this way. To me it would be like being obliged to sleep with my abuser...
Bingo (feel like I'm repeating myself here...)
But seriously-DEAD RIGHT.

KEYS
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(rp)some therapy with a therapist that is familiar to poly relationships.
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(rp)your husband should stop his dominant role in your life entirely
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you should start taking a hold of your own life in order to regain some feelings of autonomy from him.
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(rp)do a lot of educating yourselves before getting back to it.
(D/s)

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(rp)you need to stop having sex
(stop)
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(rp)pursuing any sexual relationships with anyone
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(rp)forget working on poly in this way until this is sorted out.
(meaning no sexual relationships, not no "loving" relationships)

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(rp)There is no way in hell that ...either of you are ready for the amount of work and stability that a poly relationship takes
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(rp)Anyone that comes into your lives in such a way right now will not stay around
(because being ANYWHERE around is dangerous AND at the least, painfully hard to deal with emotionally as well as psychologically.)

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(rp)you have some major issues to work out.
Major means HUGE, not "a few weeks or months to fix.....

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(rp)Not only that they could ...get hurt.
Precisely.

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(rp)it sounds like you want another primary partner because you have completely lost your connection with your husband and either don't want to fix it because of who he is or you don't think it is fixable and rightly so...
That it does, and this is something you need to REALLY introspect on.

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(rp)My concern at this point is that you won't be able to do it and will break up or worse don't bother and teach your kids that the way their dad treats you is okay... that women are meant to be treated as he treats you.
BIG issue to address and it IS a problem in your family.

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(rp)I would not at all be surprised if this attitude has carried to your everyday life in some way.
My impression is actually that it was already in your everyday life and then pervaded your sex life as well. But either way-yes big issue to address as well..

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(rp)Women who are subs in a D/s relationships are admired, taken care of, nurtured... anyone deserves that in a sub role.
I would say: People who are subs...

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(rp)He seems to think that they are to boss around, disrespect, think little of in terms of their emotions and psychological needs and generally prostitute out and abuse his power with. That has got to of fucked with his brain at this point.
Well worth addressing this as well....

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(rp)Get a hold of your life for your self and show your kids that you deserve respect, just as you would expect they would also deserve. Just because you are submissive does not mean that you should not be listening to important messages you yourself are giving you. Listen to yourself! Demand as your right as a sub to be taken care of properly.
Imperative. VERY imperative. THIS needs addressed NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MARRIAGE.

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(rp)Otherwise leave and find someone that will.
I disagree-YOU MUST figure this out AND have someone who will ALSO. BUT YOU must do it first for yourself.

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(CdM)I have to echo what redpepper said - just because you are a sub doesn't give anyone the right to violate your own boundaries.
ANYONE.
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:25 AM
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(CdM)Based on what you have said, you set out boundaries for opening your marriage and he rode rough-shod over them because of his impatience to "get on with it". He betrayed your trust and showed you little to no respect.
Rushing always fucks things up-I agree with Maca on this detail.

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(CDM)I agree that right now you shouldn't be concerning yourself with anyone else outside of your marriage - find out whether you can get back to a feeling of stability and trust with your current partner. I strongly believe that a relationship has to have solid trust as a foundation and that an open relationship needs it even more. It doesn't sound like you have that right now, and that is what you need to find out whether you can get back or not - and that is between you are your partner.
This is repeated all over the net in terms of poly relationships. There is a REASON it's said SO OFTEN. It's because it's SO TRUE and it's SO NECESSARY.


Below red added by me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
(D/s)
It supposed to be all about feeling GOOD. The Dominant feels good pleasing the submissive, and the sub feels GOOD by pleasing the Dom. It is NOT about the Dom "expanding" the sub's boundaries by making him or her do things they are not ready to do or wouldn't normally want to do (unless this is ASKED FOR and AGREED TO without emotional blackmail).
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(gs)I think it's really important to state first that this is a prime example of why it's soooooo important to grasp the distinction between love/connection and sex. As I've no doubt said before - as have others - the two CAN go together and it's a beautiful thing when they do ! But neither is a 'requirement' of the other.
Very true, very apt.
BUT only YOU as an individual can decide if you CHOOSE to have sex without that love/connection. If you don't choose to, then you are responsible for not letting someone else manipulate into doing so.

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(gs)Now I'm not going to make ANY judgment on that one way or the other but only say that you need to just be aware that it's a 'choice'. A choice each individual may make but when making it, that's it a conscious, INFORMED choice and not coming from a place of dogma, early invalid programming etc. But in my opinion and experience it's every bit as ethical (and desirable) to offer someone sexual pleasure when in need as it is to offer them food when hungry. Society in general does NOT hold that view. We all get to make that individual choice.
Key detail-as noted here, it's a choice and you both need to REALLY figure out what the heck you TRULY believe-then LIVE IT. Instead of talking about "theory" of living it.

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(gs) One the one hand, you speak to your concept of the 'disconnect' - something you are afraid you have permanently lost, and on the other hand you fully acknowledge that in fact that 'connection' can and does still exist ! It's not always 'disconnected'. Confusion and confusing for you. But I bet if you were able somehow to rewind all of your sexual experiences with Stewy back to day one, you'd discover that not ALL of them were of the deep, bonding experiences. Some were just fun & pleasurable. Some probably weren't even that
VERY worth noting. Also worth SERIOUS consideration in regards to the example of the "first time" you gave me on the phone.
That was a horrifically DUMB way to start a relationship. You really need to go back and figure out WHY you decided it was "ok" or "safe" to go forward from there-FIRST. THEN you work on whether or not you are able NOW to decide what IS or is not safe. THEN when you resolve THAT issue you can work on staying or leaving and if you decide to stay THEN you can work on the marriage...

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(gs)I seriously hope that you don't feel that the 'bond' that existed between you two has broken ! If the only 'bond' that existed was sexually based you have a whole bigger issue to deal with !
Yes-yes you do. Again, time to go BACKWARDS to the beginning and figure out, why did you move forward from that beginning, what was it that made you decide it was safe AND was it correct or no?

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(gs)... BDSM ...It seems a LOT of detailed knowledge is important for traveling that path. It may well be possible that both your understandings of the roles of Dom/sub may have been lacking some of that real in depth knowledge.
To say the VERY least.


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(gs)So as traumatic as this all seems now, I do believe there's a big potential for something wonderful to come out of it. But THAT is primarily a 'choice'.
Yes it does have that potential, but potential is NOTHING without persistence in solving the underlying issues.


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(Lemon)You should take what Redpepper said seriously. Your husband abused his power, and he needs to be taught more before he takes that role again.
VERY true.

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(lemon)I have not had exactly the same experience you have, but I have spent some time working on my marriage with a poly-friendly counsellor--BTW, I **highly** recommend finding your own poly-friendly therapist.
That would be awesome, but personally I haven't been able to find one in the whole damn state.

Another good list of steps:
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(lemon)... try physical contact for the sake of physical contact--cuddling but knowing that there will be no sex afterward.
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(lemon)Schedule time for intimacy--not sex, but talking just to each other, cuddling, paying attention to each other with no distractions.
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(lemon)build the habit
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(lemon)scheduling it helps prevent blame--if it's on the schedule, then no one can say, "you're always on the computer" or "you're never home in time" or even "I just couldn't fit it in".
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(lemon)You ALWAYS have rights. Even as a sub, you have rights, and you should have negotiated them beforehand. There are some wonderful books out there about BDSM, please please find one and read it.
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(lemon)you MUST take some time to figure out what you need and how that can be achieved. If you continue to place other's needs above your own, it will destroy your relationships.
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(lemon)You are their model for a mom. If they see you always giving up what you need for the needs of others, then they will see that moms are not as valuable as anyone else. If you have a daughter, that's a terrible legacy to leave her. If you have a son, do you want him to treat his female partners that way? You are doing your children a favor if you learn to weigh your needs more heavily. It's hard, but oh so worth it, and you'll eventually see that you can do it without taking anything valuable from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Now, of course, none of us were there, so we don't know the dynamic of the communication that went on before this took place. We don't know whether boundaries were clearly laid-out - we just know that something happened such that afterwards, the OP feels that the boundaries got crossed and doesn't feel good about it.
Bold/underline by me. NECESSARY for boundaries to be laid out SPECIFICALLY and CLEARLY in ANY poly and/or D/s relationship. PERIOD.

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Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.
Time to stop being "devastated" and start working. Work is the ONLY way it's going to get fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I agree with you GS. I think it's important to feel the trauma, and then work towards healing without getting too caught up in becoming a life long victim of what happened. There are huge lessons to be learned from this and they won't be learned if midnight decides to stay a victim in it. The point is to move forward and become knowledgable about yourself and become something more... stronger, more ocnfident and assured of yourself.
That's all for tonight. I'm tired, my fingers and hands are sweaty and clammy-and it's already 9:30 nearly with no time with Maca, so I gotta go.
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