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  #41  
Old 01-20-2010, 05:25 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Originally Posted by sisterinlove View Post
How about, I am poly, so my heart is big enough to love more than one person, and I am secure enough to admit it.
At least that is my version of poly.
Think someone once said "simple truths are the closest to truth" - or something similar. And this is a good illustration of this.

A lot of confusion & debate I see take place here around the whole 'poly' topic seems to me to boil down to a desire of some people to find a term that has been assigned a fixed meaning that they can use both to express who they are and what they believe in a shortcut method without having to get into long complex discussions with people. Associated with that is the huge fear that they will be misrepresented somehow if EVERYONE doesn't have that invariable option to reference to.

This works ok for simple terms and concepts. It NEVER works for more complex terms such as right/wrong, good/bad, tall/short etc !

Take for example a bicycle. If I ask you if you want to borrow my "bicycle", we both have a pretty clear mutual understanding of what a bicycle is. It will consist of 2 wheels, likely a seat (we hope), some steering mechanism - usually handlebars, and probably a chain drive system. And there's probably a 98+ percent chance that in fact, that will all be true. And as long as all those components are intact I can feel pretty good about the chances of a successful ride.

To think we can drill a term like 'polyamory' down to that simplistic list of likely components I feel is just unreasonable. And to stretch that a bit more, I kind of feel that an absolute insistence on that is borderline demeaning. It's almost saying that we question people's cognitive ability & critical thinking skills so much that we have try to push it to a state where the term is self evident - no thinking required.

So if we believe it's so important to do that I can accept Sister's proposal pretty easily. I don't have to analyze that any farther.
Because - as has been noted numerous times before - we can't add anything much more onto this until we define the embedded term that comes with that description.
That being "love".........

So - like saying we are "going for a "bicycle ride" we have a general and reasonable understanding of the device of transport but an almost endless list of possibilities of where and what the "ride" will entail.

But I can't get my head around the bicycle defining the ride - or vic versa.

Ride on...........

GS

Last edited by GroundedSpirit; 01-20-2010 at 05:29 PM.
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  #42  
Old 01-20-2010, 06:17 PM
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Oh right! Gotcha!
Remember, we talked about that yesterday? Heh. Oh you crack me up! I love you ygirl... ! LOL something about you makes me smile.
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  #43  
Old 01-20-2010, 08:32 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I love you too redpepper, you're a swell gal!
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  #44  
Old 01-22-2010, 11:44 PM
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Can I suggest that perhaps the reason Redpepper is having trouble with assigning the term "polyamory" to a poly-sex party is because of the societal need to lump everyone together under a general term, and that because the poly-sex concept is not one she would like to have associated with polyamory, which does technically mean "many loves", which does not necessarily mean sex?

For example, I was recently an avid homeschooler, and I still believe strongly in homeschooling. When people hear that you homeschool, they assume that your children are poorly socialized and isolated, i.e. stay home 24/7 and never play with children their own age, because this is what society says most often about homeschoolers. This is not normally the case, but is sadly true sometimes--rarely, from my experience, but only the radical neglect cases make the news. Now, if my homeschool support group one day involved the parents finding sitters and then meeting for group sex and the news got out to people who were inclined to stereotype, it's possible that soon everyone would be saying that homeschoolers were into orgies, though I doubt that stereotype would be true. (I will point out that it might be a refreshing change for some homeschoolers to stop hearing, "But what about socialization?" and start hearing, "But how will you get sitters for the orgies?")

By the same token, while some people who practice polyamory are into group sex and/or do not associate sex with emotional commitment, that is more about the individual than the practice of polyamory and perhaps should be more accurately called something else.

Or am I way off base?
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  #45  
Old 01-22-2010, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
Can I suggest that perhaps the reason Redpepper is having trouble with assigning the term "polyamory" to a poly-sex party is because of the societal need to lump everyone together under a general term, and that because the poly-sex concept is not one she would like to have associated with polyamory, which does technically mean "many loves", which does not necessarily mean sex?

For example, I was recently an avid homeschooler, and I still believe strongly in homeschooling. When people hear that you homeschool, they assume that your children are poorly socialized and isolated, i.e. stay home 24/7 and never play with children their own age, because this is what society says most often about homeschoolers. This is not normally the case, but is sadly true sometimes--rarely, from my experience, but only the radical neglect cases make the news. Now, if my homeschool support group one day involved the parents finding sitters and then meeting for group sex and the news got out to people who were inclined to stereotype, it's possible that soon everyone would be saying that homeschoolers were into orgies, though I doubt that stereotype would be true. (I will point out that it might be a refreshing change for some homeschoolers to stop hearing, "But what about socialization?" and start hearing, "But how will you get sitters for the orgies?")

By the same token, while some people who practice polyamory are into group sex and/or do not associate sex with emotional commitment, that is more about the individual than the practice of polyamory and perhaps should be more accurately called something else.

Or am I way off base?
Makes great sense to me as a homeschooler.
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  #46  
Old 01-23-2010, 12:11 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
For example, I was recently an avid homeschooler, and I still believe strongly in homeschooling. When people hear that you homeschool, they assume that your children are poorly socialized and isolated, i.e. stay home 24/7 and never play with children their own age, because this is what society says most often about homeschoolers. This is not normally the case, but is sadly true sometimes--rarely, from my experience, but only the radical neglect cases make the news. Now, if my homeschool support group one day involved the parents finding sitters and then meeting for group sex and the news got out to people who were inclined to stereotype, it's possible that soon everyone would be saying that homeschoolers were into orgies, though I doubt that stereotype would be true. (I will point out that it might be a refreshing change for some homeschoolers to stop hearing, "But what about socialization?" and start hearing, "But how will you get sitters for the orgies?")
If homeschooling parents were suddenly assumed to have orgies because some group somewhere in the belt of sin was reported doing this, trying to say "I'm not a homeschooling parent because I don't do orgies" is kind of tacitly saying that there is truth to the unfounded assumption that orgies among homeschoolers are a wide practice.

In other words deciding to define ourselves based on other people's assumptions (which are usually not reflective of the reality) rarely does much to dispel the the untruths and the assumptions. In fact, it usually perpetuates them.

Which is why I prefer to dispel the assumption directly rather than change the word so that people can continue to incorrectly assume the meanings or the practices behind the original word.

Last edited by Ceoli; 01-23-2010 at 12:14 AM.
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  #47  
Old 01-23-2010, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Makes great sense to me as a homeschooler.
LOL. Duly noted.

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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
If homeschooling parents were suddenly assumed to have orgies because some group somewhere in the belt of sin was reported doing this, trying to say "I'm not a homeschooling parent because I don't do orgies" is kind of tacitly saying that there is truth to the unfounded assumption that orgies among homeschoolers are a wide practice.

In other words deciding to define ourselves based on other people's assumptions (which are usually not reflective of the reality) rarely does much to dispel the the untruths and the assumptions. In fact, it usually perpetuates them.

Which is why I prefer to dispel the assumption directly rather than change the word so that people can continue to incorrectly assume the meanings or the practices behind the original word.
Granted, disassociating yourself from the word doesn't dispell the stereotype. However, there is also the side point that if homeschooling is used to mean orgy, then it loses its original meaning. This does make it difficult when you're looking for more homeschooling families, as you will have to wade through an awful lot of people looking for orgies, thus wasting time and energy you could have spent elsewhere. This can be discouraging for everyone involved.

I'm actually just playing devil's advocate, here. I see what you're saying, I see (obviously) what I'm saying, and I don't think there's any easy answer. I think that because there is sex involved, there is extra social stigma and therefore maybe more of a gut-level reaction to distance oneself from the thing that would make your lifestyle "bad" in the eyes of society--or I guess in this case it would be "worse" since polyamory is already "bad".
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  #48  
Old 01-23-2010, 01:31 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
However, there is also the side point that if homeschooling is used to mean orgy, then it loses its original meaning. This does make it difficult when you're looking for more homeschooling families, as you will have to wade through an awful lot of people looking for orgies, thus wasting time and energy you could have spent elsewhere. This can be discouraging for everyone involved.
For me, this would then turn into a dynamic of oppression. Who gets to define what homeschooling means? People who know little about it but have lots of opinions about it or people who are actual practicing homeschoolers?

If we continue to allow ourselves to be defined by the people who have little knowledge but lots of opinions about us, we are tacitly allowing their definitions to be the truth rather than ours.
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  #49  
Old 01-23-2010, 01:46 AM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
For me, this would then turn into a dynamic of oppression. Who gets to define what homeschooling means? People who know little about it but have lots of opinions about it or people who are actual practicing homeschoolers?

If we continue to allow ourselves to be defined by the people who have little knowledge but lots of opinions about us, we are tacitly allowing their definitions to be the truth rather than ours.
Sincerely Ceoli, I do not mean this as a challenge or any type of attack. I simply don't understand the resistance to defining words and terms. To use this example, the majority will define what homeschooling will ultimately mean. Through majority understanding the term will be defined and come to have meaning. Without majority understanding the idea of homeschooling means nothing. The same can be applied to any word. Some people will feel excluded, that is inevitable in all areas of life. All inclusive is a myth.
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  #50  
Old 01-23-2010, 01:59 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Sincerely Ceoli, I do not mean this as a challenge or any type of attack. I simply don't understand the resistance to defining words and terms. To use this example, the majority will define what homeschooling will ultimately mean. Through majority understanding the term will be defined and come to have meaning. Without majority understanding the idea of homeschooling means nothing. The same can be applied to any word. Some people will feel excluded, that is inevitable in all areas of life. All inclusive is a myth.
I don't see it as a resistance to defining words or as an attempt to be all inclusive. I'm simply speaking to differentiating between the actual definition and the assumptions attached to a definition. If we had always let people's identities and the definitions attached to those identities be governed by the false and often uninformed assumptions of "the majority", we would probably be still be considering many people as second class citizens and people in Australia would still be classifying the indigenous people there as fauna.

In fact, I see the approach of allowing assumptions to govern defining of terms as fairly resistant to the idea of defining terms.
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