Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Poly Relationships Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-22-2010, 09:09 AM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,637
Default

It sounds like you made it clear from the beginning that you have certain criteria for having sexual relationships with people. Whether or not your husband is good at "developing a preliminary bond much faster" has no bearing on that, or shouldn't in my opinion. You should of done some research into D/s before hand. Anyone starting out should. If you wanted to know how to belly dance you would go and take a class, sure you can shimmy your hips around, but if you do that too much you can hurt your back... the same goes for BDSM, only it can damage you psychologically, as you have found out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
When my husband became attracted to individuals that I did NOT, and time began to drag on with no potential partners meeting my "high standards" he began to get frustrated. He put pressure on me to lower my standards and stop being so "picky." As my "Dom" he gave me instructions that if I had an "opportunity" or we had an "opportunity" to have an encounter with someone I felt "comfortable" with, to take it.
Wanting to please him, wanting him to be fulfilled, I crossed a threshold I never should have crossed with people with whom I was NOT attracted to, did NOT have chemistry with and had NO bond with whatsoever. That was a couple of years ago and since then, I have crossed that threshold repeatedly. The result being that the connection between sex and emotional bonding was severed for me... however I was not fully AWARE of the disconnect until this week. When I realized the full extent of it, I was devastated.
there's clearly a trust issue that now needs to be resolved because I entrusted Stewy with considering my emotional needs and psychological well-being as my Dom and was let down... repeatedly (even tho I reiterrated my needs to him frequently.)
High standards mean you are taking care of yourself sexually, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't. Your body and mind were telling you something with those "high standards" and that is that it wasn't good for you to get into what was being offered... because it would be damaging. You didn't listen to yourself first, but chose to listen to your husband. Any sub will tell you that the bottom line is that you have to be okay with what is going on... the point is to be energetically charged and excited about being submissive, not damaged. You were not being "picky" you were listening to your self at that point and that deserved some respect. He didn't respect that. He disrespected you. He didn't cherish your safety, he abused his authority over you. He should never of dictated that you should take any "opportunity" that comes along if you were telling him you weren't comfortable. There should of been a change in your relationship if he was frustrated. It should of been talked out so that you both had your needs met and were safe and the boundaries were clear.

Essentially he has prostituted you out so that he can get off in women he thinks are sexy... I'm assuming he didn't have sex with the men in these circumstances... perhaps he got off in them too or visa-versa. whatever...he essentially sold you to people in exchange for masturbating into people he thought were hot. Not only that but you were violated by others because of him. Other men masturbated into you without caring who you are, just because you were there and they were horny and your husband told you to please them. Sad, very sad..... sad and frankly disgusting. I really do want to vomit. That is no way to treat a woman you love. I would wonder if he even loves you, or knows how to love. That is no way to treat anyone... even the people you had sex with disgust me for taking part...

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
To make matters worse, it became clear to me that the disconnect wasn't compartmentalized... it had carried over into the sexual and emotional aspects of my marriage as well.
well of course it would, because you went against what everything in your body said was wrong.... you weren't seeing yourself as a thing of beauty, that needed to be preserved for special moments of bonding and connection that make you feel cherished, adored, admired for who you are. You lost your integrity and sense of being a mystery to others that should be guarded and the secret given to those you respect and who respect you. Your specialness was taken away from you. Why would you feel special to your husband if he has treated you this way. To me it would be like being obliged to sleep with my abuser... because that is how I see him, as an abuser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
So, if we "close" our marriage to the possibility of polyamory and exclude possible sexual interaction with others that I have a deep bond with, would it still be possible to reconnect the association between sex and emotional bonding for me?
I think that this is the only way to regain what you have lost... that and some therapy with a therapist that is familiar to poly relationships. I agree with Mono on this point. I think your husband should stop his dominant role in your life entirely and you should start taking a hold of your own life in order to regain some feelings of autonomy from him. It seems you are in way over your head with it and need to do a lot of educating yourselves before getting back to it. I think that you need to stop having sex and pursuing any sexual relationships with anyone else at this point and forget working on poly in this way until this is sorted out. There is no way in hell that I think either of you are ready for the amount of work and stability that a poly relationship takes frankly. Anyone that comes into your lives in such a way right now will not stay around I would think as you have some major issues to work out. Not only that they could become entwined in your dynamic and could also get hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
My instinct is that I need to address the problem where it began... outside of our marriage. That I need to find at least one other partner and for sex with that person to ONLY be associated with a deep, emotional connection. It would probably help if sex between my husband and I ONLY happened when there is a simultaneous emotional connection between us. That *sometimes* happens now, but it is more the exception than the rule since the Disconnect. I see that as being hard to accomplish given that he has a much higher sex drive than me and my nature being to want to please him and give him what he needs, even if it's to my own detriment.

He fears that if I have lost that association with him, and I find it with another person, that it will prevent me from being able to repair my bond with him. He fears further damage to our marriage and losing each other altogether.
This is a really bad idea... to be honest it sounds like you want another primary partner because you have completely lost your connection with your husband and either don't want to fix it because of who he is or you don't think it is fixable and rightly so... if it were me I'd be booting the abusive bastard out on his ass... but then that's just me.

yup, safe to say that I really think you have a lot of work to do. My concern at this point is that you won't be able to do it and will break up or worse don't bother and teach your kids that the way their dad treats you is okay... that women are meant to be treated as he treats you. I would not at all be surprised if this attitude has carried to your everyday life in some way. I think your husband must completely have a warped sense of what women are about at this point. Women who are subs in a D/s relationships are admired, taken care of, nurtured... anyone deserves that in a sub role. He seems to think that they are to boss around, disrespect, think little of in terms of their emotions and psychological needs and generally prostitute out and abuse his power with. That has got to of fucked with his brain at this point.

And you dear lady, in my opinion have to think about getting a back bone. Get a hold of your life for your self and show your kids that you deserve respect, just as you would expect they would also deserve. Just because you are submissive does not mean that you should not be listening to important messages you yourself are giving you. Listen to yourself! Demand as your right as a sub to be taken care of properly. Otherwise leave and find someone that will.

This all makes me so angry. I am speaking from my own experiences with having been taken advantage of. I choice to put myself in the situations I was in to determined if they suited me. They didn't and I have been damaged by the experience also. I have not become disconnected thankfully, to me that would mean I have experienced a psychotic break and that I may be suffering from post traumatic stress disorder (something to think about and ask a trained therapist of psychiatrist about). I don't think that is the case because I am working my way through it and see everything differently now. It can be done and I am telling you, the grass is greener on the other side, now that I see it.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:07 PM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

I have to echo what redpepper said - just because you are a sub doesn't give anyone the right to violate your own boundaries.

Based on what you have said, you set out boundaries for opening your marriage and he rode rough-shod over them because of his impatience to "get on with it". He betrayed your trust and showed you little to no respect.

I agree that right now you shouldn't be concerning yourself with anyone else outside of your marriage - find out whether you can get back to a feeling of stability and trust with your current partner. I strongly believe that a relationship has to have solid trust as a foundation and that an open relationship needs it even more. It doesn't sound like you have that right now, and that is what you need to find out whether you can get back or not - and that is between you are your partner.

A question - now that you have realised what was going on, and have presumably explained it to him, how does he feel about this?
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-22-2010, 01:29 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
Custodian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: new england
Posts: 3,221
Default

Redpepper, thank you for going out on a limb.

I simply want to underscore something that has been mentioned over and over about D/s that a lot of people seem to fail to realize:

It supposed to be all about feeling GOOD. The Dominant feels good pleasing the submissive, and the sub feels GOOD by pleasing the Dom. It is NOT about the Dom "expanding" the sub's boundaries by making him or her do things they are not ready to do or wouldn't normally want to do (unless this is ASKED FOR and AGREED TO without emotional blackmail).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-22-2010, 04:44 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New England USA
Posts: 1,231
Default

Hi Midnight,

Wow girl - you got a LOT going on here {{{hugs}}}

I think it's really important to state first that this is a prime example of why it's soooooo important to grasp the distinction between love/connection and sex. As I've no doubt said before - as have others - the two CAN go together and it's a beautiful thing when they do ! But neither is a 'requirement' of the other.
In the first quote below you allude to the fact that you choose NOT to acknowledge that.
And here we are...............conflicted......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
I have always reserved sexual interaction for individuals with whom I feel a deep attraction and "chemistry" with and with whom I have developed a preliminary bond. I also prefer to have developed (or at least forsee developing) a meaningful bond with them.
I only know of one way to resolve that conflict. To take a view of "sex" as a 'complimenting' vs 'dependent' part of a bond/relationship.

Now - next.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Stewy's criteria of attraction are far wider than mine and, although he is not into "casual" sex with people he doesn't care anything for, he is capable of developing a preliminary bond much faster with a far larger demographic of individuals.
I think there's (at least) two different elements in play here and it would be good to understand them. First - and that may play into the second also - is a gender thing. Men - in GENERAL - seem to have a wider variance in what can be felt as desirable and acceptable in the sexual arena. There isn't AS MUCH (again - in general) of a requirement on close emotional bonding for the sexual experience to be GOOD. Not to imply for a MOMENT that that desire is not also present for men -and critical - just not always in the same quantity.
Add to this the most common feminine perspective that sex should only (or primarily) occur in a closely bonded environment and you have the foundations of the conflict.
How much of that 'perspective' is societal programming and how much is inherent in the nature is beyond my knowledge. But it's enough to be said that it exists and has to be acknowledged and factored in.


Next.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
To make matters worse, it became clear to me that the disconnect wasn't compartmentalized... it had carried over into the sexual and emotional aspects of my marriage as well.
Yes - every 'change/shift' that occurs within us carries over to all aspects of our life. Some are positive, some can be negative and SOME can be what we make of them.


Next.............
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
I am "not capable" of having sex with someone that I don't feel that attraction, chemistry and preliminary emotional bond with. I placed that as a requirement on me participating in any sexual encounters with others, male or female.
.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Further complicating the situation is the fact that I'm submissive by nature. It is my driving force to wish to please others and to take pleasure in the process of them getting their needs met
Do you see any conflict with the above two quotes ?
The 'driving force' as you mention above - i.e. helping people out and taking pleasure that - based on the previous quote apparently does not (or didn't) apply to sexuality.
Now I'm not going to make ANY judgment on that one way or the other but only say that you need to just be aware that it's a 'choice'. A choice each individual may make but when making it, that's it a conscious, INFORMED choice and not coming from a place of dogma, early invalid programming etc. But in my opinion and experience it's every bit as ethical (and desirable) to offer someone sexual pleasure when in need as it is to offer them food when hungry. Society in general does NOT hold that view. We all get to make that individual choice.

Next........
Quote:
The result being that the connection between sex and emotional bonding was severed for me...
VS.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
exclude possible sexual interaction with others that I have a deep bond with, would it still be possible to reconnect the association between sex and emotional bonding for me?
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
It would probably help if sex between my husband and I ONLY happened when there is a simultaneous emotional connection between us. That *sometimes* happens now, but it is more the exception than the rule since the Disconnect.
Again, do you see any conflict/paradox between the elements of the three above quotes ? I bet if you see them lined up this way you will. One the one hand, you speak to your concept of the 'disconnect' - something you are afraid you have permanently lost, and on the other hand you fully acknowledge that in fact that 'connection' can and does still exist ! It's not always 'disconnected'. Confusion and confusing for you. But I bet if you were able somehow to rewind all of your sexual experiences with Stewy back to day one, you'd discover that not ALL of them were of the deep, bonding experiences. Some were just fun & pleasurable. Some probably weren't even that
Does this help clarify anything? It could also help clarity for you both in reference to the next quote.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
He fears that if I have lost that association with him, and (if) I find it with another person, that it will prevent me from being able to repair my bond with him
I seriously hope that you don't feel that the 'bond' that existed between you two has broken ! If the only 'bond' that existed was sexually based you have a whole bigger issue to deal with ! But I feel pretty comfortable saying I doubt that's the case

and finally.........
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Also, there's clearly a trust issue that now needs to be resolved because I entrusted Stewy with considering my emotional needs and psychological well-being as my Dom and was let down... repeatedly (even tho I reiterrated my needs to him frequently.)
This is real and unfortunate. As easy as it would be to just come down here as this being cruel & insensitive etc etc, I think that would be ignoring some important things.
First, the whole lifestyle of BDSM and the understanding of the terms "Dom/sub" in particular is ripe with the possibility for hiccups. Not really being into that ourselves to any large degree, but dabbling at the edges at times, it's pretty apparent that the opportunities for missteps are all around you. It seems a LOT of detailed knowledge is important for traveling that path. It may well be possible that both your understandings of the roles of Dom/sub may have been lacking some of that real in depth knowledge.
In other words, I think there's an opportunity here to, while acknowledging that violation of 'trust', to talk a lot about WHO extended that trust and what that meant to both parties. You may well discover you both weren't 100% on the same page. Now you sure are ! (or closer to it)

So as traumatic as this all seems now, I do believe there's a big potential for something wonderful to come out of it. But THAT is primarily a 'choice'.

Hope this helps some..........

GS

Last edited by GroundedSpirit; 01-22-2010 at 04:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-22-2010, 05:21 PM
Lemondrop's Avatar
Lemondrop Lemondrop is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Rocky Mountains, USA
Posts: 305
Default

I just want to cry for you. I read this post because I thought it sounded like something I'm going through, but oh my. You should take what Redpepper said seriously. Your husband abused his power, and he needs to be taught more before he takes that role again. I don't know how much involvement you have in the BDSM community, but I know the one where I live has support groups and mentors. I think that could be valuable to both of you. HOWEVER, I also agree that if you want to repair your marriage, you should consider closing it for the time being so that you can concentrate on your primary relationship. If your other relationships love you, they will be willing to be patient while you work on things with your husband. I have not had exactly the same experience you have, but I have spent some time working on my marriage with a poly-friendly counsellor--BTW, I **highly** recommend finding your own poly-friendly therapist. You would not believe what a relief it is to be able to discuss some of these things openly, and my therapist has made some incredible insights and wonderful suggestions for my relationships.

I think what you are saying is that you need to rebuild intimacy with your husband. Perhaps you could try physical contact for the sake of physical contact--cuddling but knowing that there will be no sex afterward. Schedule time for intimacy--not sex, but talking just to each other, cuddling, paying attention to each other with no distractions. It doesn't seem romantic to schedule it, but it helps build the habit and frankly, scheduling it is better than not having it. Also, scheduling it helps prevent blame--if it's on the schedule, then no one can say, "you're always on the computer" or "you're never home in time" or even "I just couldn't fit it in". My marriage was in serious trouble last summer, and we (with the help of our fabulous girlfriend) said 11 o'clock was cuddle time, no excuses, TV off, no computer. Drop everything and just do it. It sounded stupid, but it worked.

Try reading The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. It's hokey, and it's got a Christian slant but it's manageable for a non-Christian like me, and it gave me a lot of insights into myself and my husband. I found out, for example, that I feel loved when I'm touched, while he shows love by performing acts of service like doing the dishes. What this means in a real world sense is that during an argument when I'm upset, I just want to be hugged, but he will leave the room and put laundry in the washer. If I say, "I hate that you leave all these chores until the last minute so that you don't have time to cuddle with me" he will hear "do the chores" while I hear "I need more cuddling". It's made an ENORMOUS difference--he eventually figured out that if he just puts his hand on my arm, it calms me down. And someday maybe I'll learn not to get hysterical if he must do the dishes during an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
There should of been a change in your relationship if he was frustrated. It should of been talked out so that you both had your needs met and were safe and the boundaries were clear. .
I just want to stress that again. You ALWAYS have rights. Even as a sub, you have rights, and you should have negotiated them beforehand. There are some wonderful books out there about BDSM, please please find one and read it. And let me tell you--as a mom, as a wife, as the wife of a budding dom, as someone who would and has put the needs of her family before her own, you MUST take some time to figure out what you need and how that can be achieved. If you continue to place other's needs above your own, it will destroy your relationships. It is good for them to know that you have needs, if they love you then they enjoy fulfilling you, and think of your children. You are their model for a mom. If they see you always giving up what you need for the needs of others, then they will see that moms are not as valuable as anyone else. If you have a daughter, that's a terrible legacy to leave her. If you have a son, do you want him to treat his female partners that way? You are doing your children a favor if you learn to weigh your needs more heavily. It's hard, but oh so worth it, and you'll eventually see that you can do it without taking anything valuable from them.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-22-2010, 05:32 PM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

GS, I definitely agree with much of what you have written and consider it great advice. I would like to give a different point of view on a couple of your points, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
I have always reserved sexual interaction for individuals with whom I feel a deep attraction and "chemistry" with and with whom I have developed a preliminary bond. I also prefer to have developed (or at least forsee developing) a meaningful bond with them.
I only know of one way to resolve that conflict. To take a view of "sex" as a 'complimenting' vs 'dependent' part of a bond/relationship.
I'm sorry but I am not seeing an inherant conflict here. The OP said that they choose to reserve their sexual interaction to those with whom they feel a chemistry and feel a bond - how is this a conflict? It sounds like a personal choice to me, and one that should be recognised and respected by all.

It might well be a conflict for some, but it seems like a legitimate lovestyle choice to me.

Quote:
The 'driving force' as you mention above - i.e. helping people out and taking pleasure that - based on the previous quote apparently does not (or didn't) apply to sexuality.
To me, it's a desire to help someone out and gain pleasure from their pleasure. This does not include being forced or coerced to cast aside ones boundaries and choices in order to make the other happy.

Now, of course, none of us were there, so we don't know the dynamic of the communication that went on before this took place. We don't know whether boundaries were clearly laid-out - we just know that something happened such that afterwards, the OP feels that the boundaries got crossed and doesn't feel good about it.
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-22-2010, 08:26 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New England USA
Posts: 1,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
GS, I definitely agree with much of what you have written and consider it great advice. I would like to give a different point of view on a couple of your points, though.
Hi Ciel,
Thanks for bringing up a couple things. Damnnnnnn
And I worked REALLY hard on this one trying to compose things so there would be NO chance of misunderstanding or misinterpretation. Because there was SO much going on there !
Obviously I failed........
I usually don't reply to 'replies' except in such cases, as I'm afraid of too much back & forth can really distract other readers from the central point/thread.
But it seems I dropped the "clarity' ball here (aaarrggghhh) and if you misunderstood it, chances are someone else will also.

So - to clarify........

When you mention the 'conflict' and 'personal choice' we're basically not in disagreement. I alluded to as much later in the post.
The 'conflict' that exists is the taking on of a belief that sexuality MUST be limited to a setting of deep love, bonding etc when in fact life will continue to present opportunities to test & invalidate that belief. As we both agree - it's absolutely a personal choice - but with that we have to accept that life around us will continue to 'conflict' that choice. Because it's NOT the only choice on the list.

On your second point, I hope you go back & re-read my post "as a whole".
Because there were SO many elements surfacing there I tried hard to address as many as possible individually while still trying to keep the big picture intact.
The second quote of mine you used was pertinent to that particular topic of how we view our sexuality and expression of it (when/where/why).
As you say - and I addressed later - the way this all went down within the BDSM context was outside my point - basically that her action (I can't in good conscience use the word 'choice here it seems -and yet in the end it was her final choice ) to be sexual without 'connection' is not in and of itself a 'wrong' choice and could in fact be viewed the opposite. And how SHE views it - going forward will be important. End of point. Each individual will have to make their own "choice" in that regard as to what feels "right" to them.

So I hope this clears up any confusion that I caused in the interest of trying to be brief enough to fit within posting limits.

Thanks again for pointing it out.

GS

Last edited by GroundedSpirit; 01-22-2010 at 08:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-22-2010, 09:17 PM
midnightsun's Avatar
midnightsun midnightsun is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the deep wilderness next to the man I love, raising a few wild animals some might call children.
Posts: 64
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
A question - now that you have realised what was going on, and have presumably explained it to him, how does he feel about this?
He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.
__________________
"Life is too short to always sit around worrying about the bad shit that could happen. It's a lot more fun to go start some shit of my own. "
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-22-2010, 10:25 PM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.
Knowing this, has it changed the way you feel about what happened and, if so, how?
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-22-2010, 10:31 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New England USA
Posts: 1,231
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightsun View Post
The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.
Me is thinking it isn't completely gone (actually you said so) And it can return with even more intensity. <wink>
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
abuse, bdsm, bonding, compassion, control, d/s, disconnect, forgiveness, power, red flags, sex

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:16 PM.