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  #101  
Old 05-22-2013, 03:49 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Oh Cleo, I am so very envious of the life you lead! But most of all, I love reading about your thought processes and the inner work that you do while dealing with how you manage your relationships. Good stuff, truly, and I always learn from you.
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  #102  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:13 AM
Cleo Cleo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Oh Cleo, I am so very envious of the life you lead! But most of all, I love reading about your thought processes and the inner work that you do while dealing with how you manage your relationships. Good stuff, truly, and I always learn from you.
Thank you nycindie. That was really nice to read this morning. I woke up very sad and worried. I think it looks like C and I are about to break up. Have to run now, will write more later. but it makes me feel good that my complicated thought process are read by someone across the ocean.

The more I think about relationships the more I think it's all about honesty, and being seen. If a person isn't really honest with themselves, they get confused and tangled up, and when they are, they cannot see the reality for what it is, and when that happens, they cannot see the other person as they are, and then the distancing begins.

well anyway, like I said, more later...
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  #103  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:07 AM
Cleo Cleo is offline
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Had a really long and difficult phone conversation with C last night.
I've been thinking about it half the night, discussed it with Ren, and am still not sure what it is that is really happening.

I think I am losing my respect for him. He's been with Mollly for 6 months now and he still cannot decide what kind of relationship he wants, and wether or not he wants to commit to her. How am I supposed to believe him then, when he says he's still committed to me?

he says he wants things between us to 'be the way they were'. I tell him this is not possible: things have changed and we have to figure out a way to deal with the change.

He is struggling, but part of me thinks 'well that's what you get when you say you're poly and you get involved with a mono woman who wants nothng to do with poly'.

I feel completely left out of his life now. The other day when I was there his ex (they're seperated for almost 2 years now) dropped of the kids. I've met the kids and was looking forward to meeting the ex. Right before she came over C said she wasn't comfortable meeting me and could I maybe stay upstairs when she dropped them of? I said sure fine (I mean I've had my issues with meeting metamours in the past). it wasn't until later that I realized (when I was feeling really blue and could not figure out why) that she's not my metamour, she's my BF's ex. And that it would have made all the difference if he had said that HE was uncomfortable. The way he said it made me think that her wishes were more important than mine. Why could he not have said to her hey this is the woman I love and have been dating for 18 months.

Why can he not say to me hey, there's Molly now and I really like her and want to build a relationship with her. I also love you and let's work together to make this new situation work. I'd love it if in time the 2 of you could meet.

Why can he not say to her hey, there's Cleo and I've been with her a year and a half, she's important to me and I love her, this must be weird and strange for you but let's work together to make this work. I'd love it if in time the 2 of you could meet.

Instead, all he can talk about is his confusion, the fact that he's searching, not knowing what he wants, saying one thing and doing another, going back and forth all the time.

I'm smart. I know he's not going to change. So I have to do something and make decisions for myself. the way I see it, though it makes me incredibly sad to lose the connection we had, is to reform this relationship entirely.

Or end it.

But the fact that I have been anxious, worried and sad about him for more than 2 months now, is probably a sign that this has to stop.

I'm seeing him early next week, and we agreed on no contact before that. There's a difficult conversation waiting for me.
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Ren's girls: Lou - gf of 2 years, Liz - very new gf
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  #104  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:23 AM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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I am sorry you are having so many troubles with C. Just from what you have said and the tone, I think you know what needs to be done. I know that the conversation with him will not be a pleasant one, but it needs to be had. He is unsure of what he wants, and it is spilling over into everything. If he really was that unsure of things with Molly, he would not still be involved in some type of way. How long does it take to figure out how you want a person to be involved in your life or not? I do not blame you for losing respect for him. He is basically toying with her emotions, while he plays this game that might result in losing you. Even if you do not break-up permantently, I would suggest a break. No man and no relationship are worth worrying like this, experiencing sadness, and anxiety. He should be making you happy and minimising your stress. Sending you hugs and comfort. I hope the talk goes well, but you know this has to stop.
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  #105  
Old 05-24-2013, 02:20 AM
MeeraReed MeeraReed is offline
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Dear Cleo,

I'm sorry that things are so hard with C. That's so sad.

Here's my opinion, though. I've been following & enjoying your blog here for a while. Whenever you mention MrBrown, I think, "Ah, the fun one! Great!" And whenever you mention C, I think, "Oh, the difficult one. He sounds like such a drag." I admire your life very much, and I have thought many times how I would love to have a husband like Ren and a man like MrBrown--but I have never thought, "Wow, I want a man like C."

I know you love C. But it seems like everything with him has been such a struggle for such a long time. He didn't like hearing about MrBrown or other men, etc. He wants to be poly yet the only other woman he gets involved with is adamantly mono. He keeps breaking things off with her, then getting back with her, then breaking his fluid bond with you without telling you, etc. He seems to be indecisive and to struggle with basic communication.

You have done a remarkable job of "owning" your feelings and treating your anxiety about C as if it were your problem to deal with. I didn't want to say anything because you were doing such good inner work--but I kept wanting to say, "It really sounds like your constant anxiety about C is not about your own issues with anxiety--it's a problem with C himself."

You link your need for reassurance to an addiction, something about your own brain chemistry--yet the only aspect of your life in which you are suffering from this particular "addiction" is with C.

Sometimes I think there is a danger with being too good at owning one's feelings. Sure, you want to process your own feelings and deal with your own issues without blaming someone else--but what if someone else really is the problem?

Not that C is a "problem," I just mean that your issues with him stem from his inability to decide what he wants, inability to communicate what he wants, and inability to make you feel loved and cherished.

He seems like the kind of person who wants other people to decide for him. His ex isn't comfortable with you--so you don't meet her. That was her decision, not his. Molly isn't comfortable with you, so he's wishy-washy about being involved with her. He won't make a decision.

Now, I am really biased in my opinions because whenever I hear that someone has ED, I am immediately reminded of my ex and cannot get the comparison out of my head. My ex had sexual problems which seemed to be linked to his inability to know what he wanted, express what he wanted, or ask for what he wanted. (This led him to quietly resent me for years, which is not the case with C; yet still I feel they have similar traits).

So, maybe I'm wrong here. But I, personally, sympathize with you losing respect for C.

(And if he's got a woman who very much wants to be mono with him for the rest of her life in spite of the fact that he has ED...well, let her be happy with him, then!)
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  #106  
Old 05-24-2013, 08:04 AM
Cleo Cleo is offline
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thanks ladies for your input. It is much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeeraReed View Post
You have done a remarkable job of "owning" your feelings and treating your anxiety about C as if it were your problem to deal with. I didn't want to say anything because you were doing such good inner work--but I kept wanting to say, "It really sounds like your constant anxiety about C is not about your own issues with anxiety--it's a problem with C himself."

You link your need for reassurance to an addiction, something about your own brain chemistry--yet the only aspect of your life in which you are suffering from this particular "addiction" is with C.
well, truth be told, it is something I am suffering with in other aspects of my life, too. But it is also true that he triggers my anxieties way more than anyone or anything else in my life - so yeah that should tell me something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeeraReed View Post
Now, I am really biased in my opinions because whenever I hear that someone has ED, I am immediately reminded of my ex and cannot get the comparison out of my head. My ex had sexual problems which seemed to be linked to his inability to know what he wanted, express what he wanted, or ask for what he wanted. (This led him to quietly resent me for years, which is not the case with C; yet still I feel they have similar traits).

So, maybe I'm wrong here. But I, personally, sympathize with you losing respect for C.
you make some very interesting points about C's lack of communication skills, his ED, and the possible connection between the two.

The thing is: the whole ED thing never bothered me much when we were fluid bonded. We had PIV sex occasionally and when we did, it was pretty awesome. When we didn't/couldn't, we always found other fun things to do. And of course it does help that I have plenty of sex in all kinds of flavors in my life anyway.

My issue with it now, is that because of the fact he cannot use condoms and we are no longer fluid bonded, he is the one who made the decision to remove even the possibillity of this intimacy from our dyad.

When I brought it up in our phone conversation and said : you know, I really miss that part of our intimacy, he said 'well I miss it too!'
and I said 'well you never said that before, this is the first time you said that. That means a lot to me.' And he said, 'well, we've been together long enough that I thought you would KNOW that it was important to me too!'

And I said 'well uhm NO, 18 months together does not make me a mind reader. You chose to be fluid bonded to a woman you're not in love with, not crazy about, and who you think of breaking up with at least once a week. How was I supposed to know that you miss this or that it was important to you?'

Yes, the fact that he is indecisive, and cannot communicate his wants and needs very well, spills over to every part of his life. He's not taking responsibility. About his ED he says well this is it, nothing we can do about it... and all the time I'm thinking really? is there nothing you can do about it? there are obviously no medical reasons because he sometimes 'functions' very well. So why not try to work on this?

Anyway. Sorry to keep rambling on, but it does help to put all my thoughts into words and it even helps that it is in another language, it makes me see things clearer I guess.
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early forties, straight.
the guys: Ren - husband; Curlz - bf of 2 years, Brig - bf of 7 months; Knight - non-sexual bf; MrBrown - it's complicated
Ren's girls: Lou - gf of 2 years, Liz - very new gf

Last edited by Cleo; 05-24-2013 at 08:07 AM.
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  #107  
Old 05-24-2013, 08:27 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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MeeraReed's points about ED gave me some stuff to gnaw on too. I also have to say that I keep wondering what your hobby blog is about, can't help it... I follow some blogs in my hobby that are in english and the persons native language, sigh. Must want more poly fellow bloggers...

I am biased, but yes, when a partner says something is important to them, but isn't DOING anything about it, it doesn't feel very important. I've seen my husband's ED respond well to regular excercise or stretching but then he stops and insists there is no correlation. Not sure what you'll end up doing, but if I knew 8 years ago what I know now (and was getting a pretty good idea about 2 years into our relationship) I would've made decisions that kept me from feeling conflicted and stressed and unwanted this whole time. I see you mention being anxious in a lot of your posts lately, I'll keep my fingers crossed you have figured out what you want to handle or not by the time you two see each other.
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  #108  
Old 05-24-2013, 08:55 AM
Cleo Cleo is offline
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Anne, I pm'd you about my hobby blog

To lighten things up, let me add a fun poly tidbit.

Ren was on a date with Lou a couple of days ago. They were at a restaurant, hadn't seen each other for a couple of weeks, and there were some very obvious PDA's (so he told me later).
He texts me at some point and said 'X [my (Cleo's) boss] is sitting at a table next to us! holding hands with Y! [the woman my boss had an affair with a couple of years ago, the affair that ultimately led to his divorce - all these things are public knowledge but officially a secret].'

So I was thinking about this.. I'm out to a lot of people at work, but I doubt the info has gotten through to my boss. I like him and we get a long well. I really don't want him to think that Ren is having an affair. So I texted him and said 'Ren told me you 2 saw each other the other day. Just to be clear, Ren and I are doing great, and so are we and some other people in our lives.'

He texted me back immediately and said that he had not drawn any conclusions yet (yeah right) but thanked me for the message, and ended with a

I never ever want to lie or be secretive about anything ever again in my life. Being honest is SO much more fun!
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early forties, straight.
the guys: Ren - husband; Curlz - bf of 2 years, Brig - bf of 7 months; Knight - non-sexual bf; MrBrown - it's complicated
Ren's girls: Lou - gf of 2 years, Liz - very new gf

Last edited by Cleo; 05-24-2013 at 08:59 AM.
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  #109  
Old 05-27-2013, 07:19 AM
Cleo Cleo is offline
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Having the Big Talk with C later today (I'm going to see him, fortunately, I hate talking on the phone).

just writing down some stuff that really needs to be addressed..


I've been living a poly life for 4 years now. It's been wonderful, exhilarating, and hard. I've grown and learned and my outlook on what I wanted from this new style of relationships has changed a lot. I love where it is now and this is how I want it to be: I am open and honest, and I want all my partners to be open and honest. With me and with others and with themselves.

I am proud of who I am, am proud of the way I live my life, and am proud of my loves. I want to have them in my life and in my world. Degrees of this presence can vary, but the bottom line is that there should be no shame, and no fear.

I want you, C., to be in my life. And I want to be in your life. It doesn't have to be the same, or symmetrical, but I do need to feel that you are proud of us, and feel strong and good about our love when it comes to introducing me to people who are important to you.

You are dating someone who wants to be monogamous with you and who, essentially, does not approve of the fact that you are poly [this is tricky because I'm not sure he really is.. but that's not for me to say].
This does not align with my idea of poly, where everyone involved should not just know about each other, but be okay with the fact that there are others.

My husband is dating someone, for almost 2 years, who is doing poly unethically. This has caused both him and me major heartbreak and has caused a lot of problems in our marriage. If you are intimately and seriously involved with someone who does not believe in poly, and who will resent you for also being with someone else, this will create an unhealthy environment not just for you but for me as well, because your confusion about your relationship with her spills over into our relationship.

I have learned to deal with the situation with my husbands GF, but it is not the way I would like my poly life to be, and I don't think I can have another partnership in my life where all people involved are not positively and ethically poly.

My jealousies and insecurities, the way I have expressed them to you lately, are only to a very small extent due to the fact that there is now ' someone else in your life'.
I've learned the distinction between normal, healthy, pangs of jealousy - little reminders that nothing is a given, that things can change - and the obsessive anxiety that is caused by me feeling unsafe about the relationship. This latter feeling is NOT about me being insecure - it is about the relationship not being safe.

As long as you are on the fence about what you want out of your relationships - with me, with Molly, in general - I don't feel safe. You distance yourself because you are confused. I distance myself as to not feel unsafe... and it all goes downhill from there.

************

thoughts on things I should add or phrase differently are welcome...
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early forties, straight.
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Ren's girls: Lou - gf of 2 years, Liz - very new gf
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  #110  
Old 05-27-2013, 12:30 PM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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I think that is just fine. As long as you are able to get all of your thoughts and feelings out, you just might feel better after. I know you have had a lot of thoughts weighing heavily on your mind. You may have already addressed it, but have you asked him why he is so confused on what he wants with Molly? I know within minutes of meeting a person what role I see for them in my life. You mentioned that you are not quite sure he is poly, and she is mono and not quite a fan of him being poly.

Quote:
If you are intimately and seriously involved with someone who does not believe in poly, and who will resent you for also being with someone else, this will create an unhealthy environment not just for you but for me as well, because your confusion about your relationship with her spills over into our relationship.
I would put emphasis on this because it is true, and it needs to be stressed. If Molly is having issues with him being poly or possibly, you are going to feel it in your relationship. It may come in the form of losing balance and him spending less time with you. It may come in any form, but as you are seeing now, it is spilling into your relationship. He needs to know how his confusion over things with Molly is creating problems in your relationship with him. He might not even be aware and thinking, "Oh. This issue is just between Molly and myself. There is no way it is hindering my relationship with Cleo." That kind of thinking is wrong.

Other than that, I hope the talk goes well. Be firm and open. Good luck.

Ry
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