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  #161  
Old 05-15-2013, 06:33 AM
Numina Numina is offline
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So where do we stand right now?

Airyn is dating Chipmunk, on a much more limited basis than before. Thereís an odd mix of knowledge, and lack of knowledge as to where their relationship stands. I want to know, but since his (continued) relationship with Chipmunk upsets me he doesnít want to talk about it. There are some rules or temporary guidelines. I believe all our rules are considered changeable, some more so than others, but all have an expectation (from both of us) of being relaxed (or set aside completely) at some point.

Airyn has decided that he is ok with me dating guys, and girls. Not just girls, and not just a NSBF. This has yet to be tested outside of talking about it, so Iím not certain. But then Iím not certain about a lot of things still.

Airyn and I have also talked about him dating other women, and the possibility of dating the same person in the future. Mostly just talking about expectation, rules/boundaries. Timelines, maturity, things to avoid.


Things just between he and I?

Well thatís been hit and miss. Very rocky and uncertain for a while. We are more solidly decided to work things out between us, and have had some very good times together. Unfortunately Iím still very much hurt, I still react poorly to seeing Chipmunk (have seen her very, very little since she moved out). Anxiety, stress, anger, you name it. Increased heart rate, headache, light headed (with black spots in my vision) to the point of almost blacking out (fainting), and an inability to think clearly. The jealousy issue that (I now realize started popping up around the year end holidays) are still with me. So yeah thereís still a lot of hurt here thatís not so easy to work with or around. Or even to talk about sometimes.


How does one work to find a happy place with someone, when they continue to be involved in a relationship that has so negatively impacted our lives? I want to move forward, work things out with Airyn. Make peace with the past (almost) year, but find myself often mired in that past, still hurt, and emotional, even after having a good day, or week, or weekend. I would like for Airyn to understand this better, where Iím coming from so we could talk about it without getting defensive, and angry with each other. And of course I would like for this thing with Chipmunk to be over. They have broken up (and gotten back together) about 5 or 6 times now. The last time was major, and was a ďnever going to see, or speak to her againĒ kind of ending. That lasted a very short time all things considered, and his wanting/and deciding to see her again has been hurtful and upsetting for me on several levels. More on that later maybe. I have other things to share, and things Iím musing, mulling over in my head.
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Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #162  
Old 05-15-2013, 06:43 AM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Things I've been reading about.

The following quoted from -

http://polyinthepond.blogspot.com/20...gotiation.html

ďFor example: Mad Science goes out with a girl and they have sex and it eats into my time I feel jealous. Our arrangement is based on our shared belief that one person cannot meet all of another person's needs and that we only want to see the other person happy. So I look at why I feel jealous. Am I afraid she will "take him away from me" or "her needs are more important than mine"? Those are ideas based in fear and possession. I acknowledge I feel jealous, I also acknowledge what idea is behind that. I give myself permission to feel it and let it go. It doesn't serve the relationship for me to be jealous. I go to Mad Science and say: "Can we negotiate some more time together just you and me?" and we do.Ē

. . .

ď I also find it is helpful to be friends with or at least friendly toward the metamour. She becomes human to me. Knowing her motives and feelings helps ease my mind. I take responsibility for my feelings by recognizing them, acknowledging them, assessing their usefulness, and stating my needs when rational.Ē



Jealousy. Still? Yes, probably, maybe, IDK. Maybe just fear, and resentment. Either way; at this point I think (or feel) that this is an issue for me because I have learned her motives, and they do not ease my mind.



In February, Chipmunk basically told Airyn that she should be his primary (because she deserves that), and therefore I (donít deserve that and) shouldnít have a significant place in his life. Her previous ďIíll not let another guy come between usĒ statement of being committed to just Airyn, and not dating anyone else came to a halt. She told Airyn that if he wonít be with just her then she was going to start seeing/sleeping with other guys. (From what I learned about the conversation it was mostly sex based, but I could be wrong)

Later when Things were looking like a split between Airyn and I was coming, she also admitted to not being ok with Wolf having a significant place in Airynís life. She told Airyn something about not being ok with being a stepmom. They were talking about him possibly having Wolf full time.

And (as I have commented before) she had been planning a wedding with Airyn since early on.



Another quote -

http://polyinthepond.blogspot.com/20...unication.html

ďThe negative feelings of resentment, anger and fear can be summed up this way...

Resentment is not getting my way in the past,
Anger is not getting my way in the present,
and Fear is not getting my way in the future.Ē


Yep thatís me. So we work on it, or attempt to anyway.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #163  
Old 05-15-2013, 03:31 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Important to me - quote from GalaGirl

Pertinent to things today.
From this Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Don't blame ya for being upset.

1) He lied by omission. (Witholding information. 3 times? C'mon!)

2) He failed to hold his responsibility of stating his wants, needs and limits to you on the BDSM stuff. You did not break any rule -- if it was unspoken it's on him to own it because it was not a rule. You are not a mind reader. So bringing this up just to minimize his discomfort with #1 is lame. Why throw you under the emotional bus?

3) Now he wants to turn it into the couple pissing contest. "I did that but YOU did..." Two wrongs do not make a right, esp when you were not in the wrong on #2. OR worse, if he brought up ancient past mistakes, he's not forgiving and letting go. He's throwing you under the emotional bus distracting from TODAY's issue. His lies of omission.

Basically he had hard stuff to articulate and wanted you to do all the work via mind reader-ing.
  • Expects you to mind reader his faux pas, so he doesn't have to do the hard work of owning and fessing up.
  • Expects you to mind reader his unspoken wants, needs, limits so he doesn't have to to the hard work of thinking things out.
  • Expects you to mindreader his need for nurture/support because he feels bad and solve his discomforts. But he brings it down on his own unthinking head by not sticking to your rules & responsibilities in the first place.

I'm not crazy about "breaking unspoken rules" because that's not holding up all the sticks. I'm no mind reader. People have to carry their OWN responsibility of articulating their wants, needs, limits. I have the right to clear communication!

Turning things into a tit-for-tat pissing contest thing is lame. Are bygones bygones or NOT? Again -- clear communication. Because if you forgive and let go you really let it go. It's not fair to bring up old hurts that were supposedly processed to reinjure your partner with. That's hitting low. How is this holding up the right to nurture?

It's really being emotionally selfish -- not liking the uncomfortable you bring down on your own head and trying to pass the bag on to your partner to hold for you. Instead of holding your own bag. Thhhpt.



He's got to hold his own emotional bags. The unsafe sex is one thing -- not caring for his own and your physical safety.

The other (and maybe larger) prob is not caring for his and your emotional safety well.

It's like you got a double whammy. He's complaining about feeling disconnected -- well what's he doing to create connection? Breaking safe sex rules and not holding up his responsibility to care for his own and your physical safety. Then he waits this long to own THAT mistake and it comes with emotional namby pamby and avoidy blame shifty -- this is holding up his responsibility to care for his and your own emotional safety how?

I do not know your polyship rules and responsibilities. You kinda have to decide is this is dealbreaker territory yet or not based on your polyship rules. I can't say if you are willing to open yourself to another try here not not. If you ARE?

A willingness to forgive and really let it GO. Because if no forgive, then no amount of time will solve it. Because if is not let go for real, it never will be, and great... will keep popping up every time there's another conflict.

If forgiveness is truly given and accepted, then a make amends time has to happen. Sounds like you guys are working on that with new rules.

Then it's just the waiting out to see time pass and the new rules actually upheld.

Life is life. People make bad judgement calls, honest mistakes, etc. That's why in my world, I'm willing for 3 strikes you are out on the SAME issue. If there is honest effort, I can accept it takes time to own it, learn a new skill, etc. But over and over on the same darn thing? Esp emotional namby pamby pass the buck avoidy stuff? Best I make a clean break. I can't be in relationship with someone who will not play ball seriously. Poly cannot work without good, honest communication.

Hopefully you guys can learn to trust again and keep moving it forward if this is what you both wish.

GL!
GG
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #164  
Old 05-15-2013, 04:04 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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She wants him to kick not just his wife but his child out of his life for her????

Toxic is very much the right word. I'm glad she's out of your home and you have more peace, but I'm so sorry this is still going on at all. I would hope that any parent would have enough respect for their children to not have anything to do with anyone whose goal it is to break their bond with their children. Just so not OK... it should have been over, permanently, right then. Even if she doesn't still claim that as a desire, the selfishness it demonstrates is beyond unacceptable.
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  #165  
Old 05-15-2013, 11:44 PM
CattivaGattina CattivaGattina is offline
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This thread really just makes me realize how long the NRE can last. When it started you said the relationship with chipmunk was at 5 months (October). Now it sounds like you are approaching a year and with her saying things like wanting to be Airyan's primary and for you/Wolf not to be significant in his life is something that I would have thought someone would balk at a continuing relationship (if not because of making you less to his life the cutting out of his own daughter),
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  #166  
Old 09-03-2013, 05:40 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Months of discord

BP Writes so eloquently. I have gained a preference for basically disappearing when things are stressful between Airyn and I.
The following quotes speak to me and my life of the past few months.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...&postcount=413
The best? Was when he indicated how much it sucked to have an agreement in place, and then do something completely different. I know THAT feeling VERY well. Like, seriously?

This quote here? "The devastating consequences of using veto on people that are in love?" this makes me actually chortle out loud. I think it's more that this is the devastating effect of one partner's lack of integrity and honesty over another. That psychology of yours seems to excuse one person's behaviour, as though love is such an overpowering force that one is hapless in its midst, incapable of making conscious choices for the good of their life.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...&postcount=423

My heart asks why? Why are we apart? I tell it over and over, but it has its own song that it dances to, and has no interest in the things that my mind tells it. My soul reaches for him, and snaps back into my body over and over with a thunk when I remind it that I have removed him from the house, from my life. My body remembers him in a way that my mind cannot talk it out of.

. . .
After all that we have been through we have every reason to not be together again.
. . .
I know how much my heart loves him still. Has not changed. My body still loves him. Has not changed. My soul still loves him. Has not changed.
. . .
Yet we wound each other. I wound him. He wounds me. He says I try to change him. I see him trying to change me. Can we both just accept ourselves, and in turn each other? Is there a way forward for us?

. . .
He says that he is tired of trying to be someone that he is not. I have to agree - I am tired of trying to be someone that I am not. I cannot be lied to. I cannot be treated callously. Other than that, there is little that I am not willing to stand next to in life when it comes to my heart, and my love.

There is a part of me that thinks I am a fool for even considering it. There is a part of me that things that it would be utterly foolish for us not to. Time has passed, and emotions have ridden high and low on both of our parts. We reflect on ourselves, and our life together, and we are both incredibly leery.

This next quote sound very much like what Airyn has been saying for a while now.
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...8&postcount=38
We have lost the dream of the poly-fi triad and I have lost a friend and a lover. It seems BP wants a total break, no communication whatsoever. What choice do I have? Our relationship hangs in the balance. BP wants me to come to these decisions on my own, to naturally defend our relationship at all costs, wants for primary to MEAN something.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #167  
Old 09-05-2013, 08:10 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default What to share

Over the past several months I have written several lengthy posts, then trashed them deciding not to share anything. Mostly because I was overly hurt/anxious/or angry when writing them.

So now do I catch things up, recap just recent events, talk about this week, or hopes for the future?


A lot of crap has happened. I've had every rule/boundary I've made with Airyn broken. Even the ones not directly related to his relationship with Chipmunk. I've been lied to over and over. I've been hurt more and more by both Airyn, and Chipmunk, and how Airyn handles his relationship with her.

Right now Airyn is struggling to set his priorities. One day he'll tell me he wants things with me. TO fix things between he and I, to be more like the partners we were before all this. And then another day he'll tell me that He'd leave to be with (live with) Chipmunk if he thought that when that was done Wolf and I wouldn't hate him. That I'd still want him in my life.

I have suggest many times, and have said/done things to make him choosing to move in with Chipmunk an easy choice for him to make, but he still live here with me. He's still hurt, and confused. Wanting to be with both of the people he loves, and neither one of them being ok with him having both of us in his life.

Well Actually I have made several attempts to make some space where Airyn could at least see Chipmunk, so long as I could keep my distance from it. Some time there was a lot of distance between Airyn and I sometimes, not. Either way these attempts were fulled with hiding, sneaking, and face to face lies from Airyn about the state of his relationship with Chipmunk. And his refusing to be understand of how I feel about his relationship with Chipmunk, why I'm not ok with it.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married

Last edited by Numina; 09-05-2013 at 08:22 PM.
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  #168  
Old 09-05-2013, 09:09 PM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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*hug* That really sucks. I'd just remember that its been long enough that I'd have trouble blaming any of this on NRE, and try to see Airyn as showing who he really is. I don't envy you the decisions you're faced with, but I hope you are able to make choices that are the best for you (with Wolf a close second).

I will say that after my husband broke every rule we had, and we separated - he also was very confused and still wanted to be with me, (though in that case I didn't really think I wanted to be with him still, but was willing to date him and see how it went). His actions and failure to follow through showed that he wasn't committed even if his heart wanted to be with me still. I decided to make the decision FOR us. I told him I felt it was clear he wanted a divorce even though he was swearing up and down he didn't, and told him I was going to get started on the paperwork. In retrospect he agreed that it was the right thing to do, but he just didn't have the objectivity to step back and see it at the time. It was the best decision I could've made. Sticking around while he tried and failed while getting further hurt in the process would've made it so we weren't best friends a decade later. I'm a big fan of listening when someone's subconscious is screaming louder than their mouth is - not sure if you feel its the case for you, but it sure was in mine.
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  #169  
Old 09-06-2013, 10:34 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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This year (2013) Airyn and I have had a lot of visitor's. Mostly Family, but a couple of longtime friends came to visit for a few weeks a couple months ago. So far there has not been a visit from anyone that Chipmunk hasnít cause strife. Either directly, or indirectly (due to how Airyn handle his communication with her)

Either her pouty moodiness (early this year) had Airyn again running to talk to her, to find out what is up, versus our agreement that he send her home to deal with how she feels on her own. Or Chipmunk is attempting to manipulate (since moving) Airyn into seeing her when she knows she not invited to participate in anything while we have visitors.

So difficult to put anything together without getting carried away, and making myself sad, or angry.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #170  
Old 09-07-2013, 08:19 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Trying to keep it brief

So many things have happened, so many things have come and gone.

There was a short period of just friends that was way too intimate to be just friends. That period ended due to my catching Airyn in a very significant lie. This caused Airyn to delete his accounts (Gmail, FB) cutting Chipmunkís only avenues of communication off. She comes pounding on our door demanding to talk to Airyn or she wonít leave. Which causes even more friction between Airyn and I, and begins a short period of Airyn and Chipmunk not seeing or speaking to each other.

That period is marked Airynís anger, regret, resentment, and bitterness. He made his choices, but of course feels forced. He chose to close his accounts, I didnít not suggest that, I did say that I feel he should not be seeing Chipmunk at all. So after a little over a week heís talking about needing to be able to see Chipmunk. Talking about how his anger and resentment arenít helpful for he and I. He knows Iím not ok with him restarting his relationship with her. Iím asking for time. Time to be just us, time where maybe heís just talking online, but not meeting for a few months. What I get is him meeting her within a week of talking to me about it, I get an agreement that he wonít see her more than twice a week, and that he wonít go over to her place. We both acknowledge that these ďrestrictionsĒ probably wonít last. There is one very big restriction; Chipmunk will never be invited to family get togethers. When his family is in town, or my family, or we have visits from friends she will not be invited, and Airyn is expected to spend this time with family, and our guests. That is not a restriction that would be changing at all.

This restarting of their relationship does not go well for Airyn and I. Things were not different. She has no respect for family time. By the second week Chipmunk is already requesting a sleepover before the end of the month, and to be able to see Airyn more than what Airyn and I agreed to. From where Iím sitting these restrictions should not be a surprise. As far as Iím concerned Airyn should not be even considering dating Chipmunk again.

Airyn basically he wants both relationships to be a part of his life, and I can not truly be ok with him dating Chipmunk any longer. But I was attempting to give him some space to keep seeing her. There was the hope that maybe in the future things would get better, and they would be able to have even more space.

At that time it was understood that I was not ok with his continuing his relationship with her, not ok with his plans to go from friendly get togethers to dating, and eventually back to the romantic/intimate relationship like they had before.

WE again have visitors, and again she causes drama. Itís really not difficult to understand why she is no longer invited to participate in these things. Even if she and I were on better terms her pouty BS over this whole thing every time there is family/friend visits. Basically the deal is if I will be there then she will not. There are to be no exceptions this time. So she throws fits over it. Telling Airyn that heís allowing me to control him. Telling him that he should be spending more time with her.

So our next visitors are a couple longtime friends who will be visiting for 3 weeks. Airyn tells me that he once again reminded Chipmunk that she will not be invited, will not get to participate, and that Airyn will be busy with family, and our guests, and wonít be able to see her during this time. There are no restrictions on his talking to her other then he be polite, and not do so and ignore the rest of us. So heís expected to keep it minimal versus the rapid fire conversations they have anytime she is not working.

Airyn sees her for a long afternoon date the day before our friends arrive. They know about Chipmunk, and our poly attempt with her. They knew she moved out, and that she and I are not friends, and that Iím no longer talking to her. They both ask me what happened. I had previously introduced them via skype video, and Chipmunk had FB friended the guy (Dance). A week after They arrive Chipmunk makes a pouty manipulative attempt to get Dance, his GF Goth, and of course Airyn to come see her the next day. This greatly angers me. And Goth is going on about how sheís glad they knew beforehand that things are not cool between she and I or they would have done the friendly thing and likely have accepted her invite for dinner, and just brushed aside her woe is me remarks. She was very upset at this manipulation, which only fuels my resentment, and anger at Chipmunks newest attempt to insinuate herself into my time with family, friends, and Airyn.

This goes poorly, Chipmunk is demanding to chat with Airyn. I tell Airyn that he should log in long enough to tell her to drop it. He does this. Then tells me that I and my friends need to leave my place so she can talk to Airyn. WTH? Umm NO! I tell her she wonít be seeing or talking to Airyn. She demands he meet her and give back her house key. I tell Airyn to stay home, and Goth and I catch her as she comes up to my door, She had said to meet her at the market at the corner. Just a diversion in her attempt to manipulate things so she can see Airyn. I give her back her key, and tell her she has 5 mins to leave before I call the police that she is now trespassing on private property where she is not welcome.

She tells me itís an apartment and she doesnít HAVE to leave. I tell her that Itís my home, and she does, and that the police will side with me. She tells me that Airyn is not my husband, that he and I are just married, and that heís only living with me because of Wolf. And some other rather crazying sounding things. But these were the big ones. Goth and I go back inside and relate what happened. I have a witness to her crazy for once, so Airyn can blow it off to me over reacting.


Chipmunk appears to leave, but a few mins later she outside my door pounding on it. Once again demanding to see Airyn. Instead of calling the police, we all leave out of the back door while sheís at the front door. An hour or so later I get a message from Airynís mom telling me that Chipmunk contacted her asking where Airyn is.

A close friend of mine who I stopped by to introduce to Dance and Goth informed me of Chipmunkís bizarre post to her FB wall. She has FB friended everyone of my friends that she was introduced to. Chipmunk post on her FB page some things about how she knows all the facts, that Certain people think they can exclude her when people visit, but that she has every right to be a part of that, and some other hurtful things. Like how she will always be in Airynís life no matter that someone doesnít like it, and on and on in that vein. She didnít use my name, but she was referring to me.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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