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  #561  
Old 05-14-2013, 05:49 AM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
I consider that a "play" contract because it isn't legally binding. If one person doesn't do what the contract says, do you take them to court to have it enforced?

Then in that case, the "contract" DOES function as a "prop", because if a person is doing something by choice because it is right for them, a contract is unnecessary. It was unclear whether that was part of your process of reasoning.
Let's consider a commitment ceremony that two people who either can't, or don't want to, access traditional marriage have together. Is that a "play" ceremony because it's not legally binding, are their vows a "prop" because they're doing what's right for them by choice? I don't see how something being a choice you make because it's right for you means that you're "playing".

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I like being a spouse "all the time". Sometimes I get annoyed with my spouse, but i can honestly say that i don't have moments where i wish I wasn't married. Please don't say things like that because when I respond to them I feel as ridiculous as that sounds.
I absolutely know people who are glad they're married and yet have moments when they've wished they weren't. It doesn't sound ridiculous at all to me.

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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
I'm not upset; you and pollyanna did not seem "upset". I am involved in a conversation where I am pointing out things I disagree with and why I disagree. I said there was "so much uptightness" about BDSM in general. That's not the same thing as saying you and pollyanna are "upset", and it doesn't mean I'm "upset", "more upset", etc.
Fair enough. Caps in text come off like shouting to me, and you were using a lot of caps.

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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
We all have the right to a "strong opinion". We do NOT have the right to dictate that our "strong opinion" applies to all people who do certain things in their relationships.
Again, I seriously have never said, and would never say, that anything applied to all people of any type. I'm not sure why you're pulling that back out.

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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
You see, you are basically saying the same thing, that no one else has the right to speak for you, but out of the other side of your mouth you're saying that because you "live the lifestyle" and I "just play", that you have some authority to declare what it all means.
I never used the phrase "live the lifestyle", I get what people mean by it but I don't like the terminology. I said we built our lives and loves around it, because we have. And, yeah, I do think that people who have had first-hand experience of something are likely to have more valid opinions than those who haven't. I don't, however, think that I have some authority to declare what it all means (where are you getting this? again and again you keep assigning these absolutist opinions to me that I don't have, and don't think I've mistakenly expressed), nor do I think that you don't the right to an opinion.

I actually went back and inserted the word "yet" here --
"Why do you have the right to a strong opinion, when this isn't actually something that you enjoy as more than play, and yet we're being uptight for having differing opinions, when we've built our lives and our loves around these concepts?"
-- to make it clearer that I wasn't trying to say that you didn't have a right to an opinion, but rather that I thought it was hypocritical to express a strong opinion and then imply that other people were being uptight for having their own strong opinions, especially on a topic that affects their day to day lives in a way which it doesn't affect yours, which is what it seemed to me you were doing.

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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
Come on Annabel. You're not stupid. You knew that's what I meant. You just wanted to bust my chops because it's, like, a thing.
No, actually, I didn't. What you said came off to me as pretty offensive on the first read. When you're abrasive about things that are close to people's hearts, it's hard not to take it personally. This is the same complaint that lots of other people have had about your posting style, it makes it hard to parse out the content. It just generally hasn't been directed at me, so I haven't had to respond to it before, but I guess when it comes to some things I don't have much of a thicker skin than anyone else.
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Last edited by AnnabelMore; 05-14-2013 at 05:53 AM.
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  #562  
Old 05-14-2013, 06:01 AM
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Just a thought:

"Come on, you are not stupid - you knew that is what I meant" made me smirk. Never assume ... say what you mean. Communication should not involve guessing. If there was a part where you yourself can see that one could understand it differently from what you wanted to say, clarify it and acknowledge the possiblity that someone may have understood you in the wrong way.
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  #563  
Old 05-14-2013, 07:53 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Nyc-I like links for contracts on leathernroses.com.

They can be used in some arenas legally. They are a verbal contrac t or a written contact. In some places those are legally binding.
Also-as example; if one specifies that sexual intercourse is NOT agreed to, but ended up raped while tied up, that shoes there was no concent and could be used to Aid prosecution.
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  #564  
Old 05-14-2013, 08:00 AM
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My contracts are the rules of the relationship. If they aren't upheld, I terminate the relationship, same as divorce.
This is true regarding my poly contract and my M/s relationship contracts. They are the vows of the relationship.

That said, when engaged in play within those relationships we may make a scenerio comtract only relevant for that scene.
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  #565  
Old 05-14-2013, 02:56 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post

They can be used in some arenas legally. They are a verbal contrac t or a written contact. In some places those are legally binding.
Also-as example; if one specifies that sexual intercourse is NOT agreed to, but ended up raped while tied up, that shoes there was no concent and could be used to Aid prosecution.
What places ? How many prosecutions of rape have ever used a slave contract to prove non consent ?

For those serious " in the lifestyle " the oxymoronic part is a slaves can't sign contracts ...because they are by definition under the control of another.
It's like free elections in communist countries. They happen but they're a joke.

HEY ...I think Ariel Castro got signed contracts ....he should be fine then...right. I wonder whose blog or website he pulled those off of.
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  #566  
Old 05-14-2013, 03:15 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Originally Posted by pollyanna View Post
If I had been MORE vocal and less of a coward about what a master's responsibility is and less of an ostrich, a dear friend of mine might still be alive.
In a discussion about BDSM, this might be worth elaborating on. Perhaps as a warning of what to look out for and avoid? What went wrong.
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  #567  
Old 05-14-2013, 10:16 PM
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In a discussion about BDSM, this might be worth elaborating on. Perhaps as a warning of what to look out for and avoid? What went wrong.
oooh, you are right. I'm sorry.

Her mistress demanded the slave submit to her in all ways, socially, physically and financially even though the slave had children of her own to take care of. The slave was just a regular working woman--she did clerical work and struggled to make ends meet. The slave was not allowed to even purchase clothing for herself but ordered to buy things for the mistress. The slave paid all their travel expenses--for the mistress and whoever the mistress decided to bring along on the trips. The slave wasn't allowed to speak with anyone without the mistress's permission. Every now and then the slave and i would have lunch together but she would beg me not to tell anyone so she wouldn't get in trouble.

The slave gave until she had nothing left to give. We were all at a kink party one weekend and the slave had told the mistress she was sick. The mistress told her 'suck it up, buttercup' and the slave-who had been in and out of the hospital for 3 months at this juncture-had to hide in our room to take a short rest periodically throughout the evening, asking me to come wake her if the 'lady' called for her because she didn't want to get in trouble. She waited on this woman hand and foot and did nothing without permission. The mistress denied her permission to seek medical treatment. Slave gave so much of her money to make the mistress happy that the slave refused to go to the hospital again because she didn't have the money to pay the medical bills.

A few days after the party, the slave finally was so sick she had to go to the hospital. That day her 'Lady' posted on fetlife that her slave had asked to be released and she was now looking for a new slave. And, no, please don't ask the slave about it...it was too personal. A couple days later the slave died and that wretched woman deleted the ad for a new slave, posted loving pictures of the slave, and accepted condolences. Those few of us in whom the slave had confided were sickened by the callous behavior of the 'Lady' and by the hypocrisy of the same.

We felt we had let our friend down. That, as members of the community, we should have done something to save our friend's life. We should have insisted she go to the hospital. There was a date rapist known in our community and anytime his name came up, women were warned that he wasn't safe. Same thing with the scam artist who stole thousands of dollars from various people in the group.

The slave had such a deep=seated need to be controlled and to please that she gave past the point of what she should have/could give. But i lay the blame for the episode at the feet of the mistress who, imo, had the ethical responsibility to NOT misuse or abuse the nature of the slave for her own gain. She should have listened when the slave said she was too sick to go to a party. Slaves have needs but meeting the psychological needs don't include taking unfair advantage of someone whose basic nature is to serve and please others.

And to top it all off...the slave was always very careful to keep her 'extracurricular activities' from the knowledge of her children. That wretched woman attended the slave's memorial service and outed her to her children and family. Absolutey reprehensible, imo.

so, she did not die from bdsm gone awry...she died from neglect--on more than one front. I feel so guilty for not being more forceful in helping her.
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  #568  
Old 05-15-2013, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Nyc-I like links for contracts on leathernroses.com
There are so many sections to that site, but I cannot tell which one has sample contracts by the table of contents on their home page - can you give me the url to the page where their contracts are?
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Last edited by nycindie; 05-15-2013 at 04:36 PM.
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  #569  
Old 05-15-2013, 04:42 PM
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Nyc-I will have to look when I am on my laptop. I know I pulled from there, but it was over a year ago or more.


Dinged-I'm not going to get into it with you. Nothing personal, but knowing the history-we've already discussed the topic in pm and I know that your points are well thought out and good for the BDSM curious crowd to seriously consider-and you know that my attitude towards BDSM differs greatly from "the norm".

As for the slave who died-that's just something I can't even imagine standing back and allowing as a person. I don't give a shit what lifestyle a person leads, when a life is on the line-it all goes out the window IMPO. Parents who don't believe in medical care for religious reasons, Masters/Doms who say no to medical care-all can just FUCK OFF.

I have a M/s relationship. I can't even IMAGINE. Taking the responsibility of M or D means taking the RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CARE AND WELL BEING of another person-much like a parent. It does not mean having the freedom to abuse them or stop them from getting their physical, mental, emotional, psychological, medical etc needs met. It means ENSURING that they get those met.
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  #570  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:13 PM
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I get the sense in my local BDSM community that contracts are similar in how many people here feel about rules. In other words, they are helpful to have starting out but that things change greatly over time, and as things go on and the relationship develops, the rules - or the contract in this case - changes too, or goes away entirely as trust is earned on both sides. However, others continue to find contracts really useful even though they have no legal basis at all.

I have never heard of a legal situation where a BDSM contract was of any relevance or use. Usually I hear about situations where any acknowledgement of BDSM interest or participation was actually detrimental (such as liking pain means consenting to getting beat in all situations). But I certainly don't know the entirety of the BDSM universe.

@pollyanna, how dreadful for you and your friends. I hope that pathological user is named among all of your acquaintances, and not just the BDSM ones. Someone like that will abuse people in all areas of life - calling one self a mistress is just the means to the end. Even if you and your friends had intervened, she may not have left. Abused people often stay with their abuser for a variety of reasons.

It is so important that one have a strong sense of self in BDSM. That's true anywhere but BDSM has real psychological and physical dangers. The pyschological dangers are more pervasive and threatening in my opinion because one can be relatively easily taught to swing a whip safely. It's a technical skill. The moral, emotional or pyschological skills are much harder to develop - they require empathy, love, and care be already present. One can be taught how to be an ethical master, top dominant, submissive, switch, or slave. But someone without ethics, or compassion or empathy, like the sociopathic mistress, can mimic a 'good' top or dom by picking up the technical skills and just enough to pass on the pyschological skills.

I have met a lot of secure, strong submissives and slaves locally. I have also met a few submissives or slaves who so lack a sense of self that they felt like a sucking black hole to me. I've met a few who were desperately needy - which made them desperate to please, no matter the cost. Your friend perhaps sounds like these people. Her 'mistress' is responsible for that tragedy. No question. That was a classic controlling and abusive relationship with M/s as the mechanism for the abuse.

But I also strongly feel that BDSM, like relationships in general, should not be engaged in if one is not psychologically healthy enough to do so. And I see some people locally who do not meet that standard, in my opinion. And unfortunately that makes them victims just waiting to run into a user and abuser.
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