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  #11  
Old 05-07-2013, 05:43 PM
Oly1 Oly1 is offline
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Default Thanks GalaGirl!

You've really helped me a lot with clarity on this.

We had an open, honest, conversation on the subject. I basically told her I hate the idea of this relationship with every fiber of my being, I am losing respect for her seeing how she acts, I will never be OK with it (which is NOT to say I am not OK with poly in general), and I want and think she should end it.

She's not ending it.

I told her I don't know who she is anymore. I feel that she has been hijacked by NRE and there is "no one home". She is (or I believed was? for 8 years!) a kind soul, someone who would never hurt a fly, an honorable person.

I've made my mind clear. Short of giving her an ultimatum (e.g. quit this or leave the house) I don't feel there is much more I can do now. And an ultimatum is really not my style. It feels very violent to me as a relationship strategy.

So for now I am keeping my distance for a while and waiting for my wife to reappear.
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  #12  
Old 05-07-2013, 06:34 PM
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nancyfore nancyfore is offline
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Hugs...

So sorry to hear that she won't stop and listen. This person she is seeing might not even be telling her the truth about the marriage. I believe in a previous post that the woman told your wife that her marriage is loveless or other wise not healthy (?). If she is being dishonest with her husband by cheating, she could very well be dishonest with your wife and the husband could be sitting at home thinking everything is great.. I know that something is wrong if there is cheating involved, but the marriage could be completely different than what is being represented to you wife.

Do you know the woman and her husband? Are these people that will ask you when it all comes to light "why didn't you say anything?"

If your wife can not see how wrong this is and not care who it hurts in this relationship, what happens if the next person comes along and is cheating? Is this going to be a behavior that continues? I know that is a hypothetical question but one that needs to addressed. If this is a continuing behavior, can you stay with her?
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  #13  
Old 05-07-2013, 10:39 PM
Oly1 Oly1 is offline
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Default Answers

I could definitely not stay with her if this would become a recurring pattern. If I wanted cheating in my life I'd be monogamous

To be honest, I can't believe this is happening now. It is extremely out of character for my wife. Which is why I'm hoping she'd "find herself again" soon.

To answer your question, the other person (C, for "cheater" ) is also a lesbian. We don't know her wife, which I think is what's making it possible for R to ignore her existence, or at least her humanity and right to the truth.

C tells R that the marriage has no merit, no sex and no communication (that last part I'm inclined to believe...). Than again, she also tells her she's cheated before, and if her wife asks, she has every intention to lie. So yea, I don't really think she's trustworthy. And I told R to take everything she says with a grain of salt. And she naturally resented that, but didn't exactly disagree.

I think R was just taken by surprise by all this. Despite the definition of our relationship as "open", she was totally mono, in action and mind, for 8 years. I had crushes (never pursued) every 2-3 years, she never did. I would imagine my poly triad of the future, she would picture us with a mortgage and two kids, picket fence and all. Said she never wanted anyone but me. Maybe just for 1night stands for variation, sometime in the future.

Then she had a crush on a (way) older, and married, teacher. They became coworkers, and started getting closer. She assumed a friendship was building. Sexual tensions became obvious. She went to talk to her about limits, convinced C would tell her they can only be friends. That's not what happened.

When she came home after the first time they made out, she looked so shocked I was afraid something awful had happened. In hindsight, I should have offered taking it slow at that point, you know? figuring out what she (and I) want first, jumping into bad second. But that didn't happen. I never thought there was an option of asking to slow down until I've seen it suggested here on various posts. Too bad I started reading here so late in the process...

I do know C, not very well, but we've had a few interactions, and they were positive. She's R's mentor at work, and a nice and giving person. I do believe her marriage has it's problems, and from what she tells R, she tried to discuss them with her wife and was shut down. I don't think her wife is oblivious as to their problems, but I also don't think she knows she's being cheated on repeatedly . This is partly why I won't tell on C to her wife, she is a stranger to me. If she weren't, this would probably be unbearable.

Granted, I don't think C is handling her marriage very well. But who am I to judge. It's harder for older lesbians in a conservative country like ours. And there is honor in sticking it out for the kids even when your unhappy. I am inclined to be judgmental, but am working hard to find some compassion towards her situation (but not towards her choices!). Every relationship is complicated, there are no bad guys and good guys here (actually, there are no guys involved... ).

What's interesting to me is that once I made up my mind as to what I'm feeling and what I need to do, I feel way better. Thank you all.
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  #14  
Old 05-08-2013, 12:19 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Default Glad it was helpful.

I'm glad it was helpful to you for clarity. I'm very sorry her answer was not to end it. That is painful for you.


To be honest, I can't believe this is happening now

Sounds like "shock" as the first stage of the grief process as you digest her answer.

At this point you could take a few days "time out" to digest her response. But you could put a time limit on that so you aren't hanging around forever. Result on her end if you do? She gets to be with both of you like her disregard for you is inconsequential.

Her devaluing you and the relationship you share COULD have consequences, and SHOULD have consequences. You could determine what those are as you move through the stage of grief and your feelings emotion catch up with your thought logic.

You seem clear about these things...

That for her to CONTINUE the unethical affair?
  • Despite her knowing that you do NOT give you blessing and goodwill for this relationship to exist?
  • Despite her knowing that you lose respect for her as she carries on?
  • Despite her knowing it causes you pain?

Not cool.

Now you know these things for SURE:
  • You now KNOW now that speaking up for yourself and drawing the line in the sand is self-respecting behavior. So even though the outcome is NOT what you ideally hope for, YOU can feel at peace with yourself. And that feels good. So could be brave and do it again and keep choosing self respecting behavior.
  • YOU know that SHE knows all the above. She cannot be pretending like she doesn't know.
  • YOU know now that her offer "to end it because it caused you pain" was false cookies.

Hint: when someones offers to end something that is hurtful to you rather than just END it? It's usually false cookies. And you called her on it and found it so. False package cookies. The real offer was "Be ok with my hurting you so I can continue my crazy without feeling guilty about it."

Your next chess move could be this:
Wait a reasonable time for her to digest your line in the sand. Maybe she's in shock/denial and really doesn't believe you will go.

And give you time to digest her response. It's a whopper.

Since you shared 8 good years, in service to the relationship you once had? Waiting an additional few days is neither here nor there. Give it a week. Then you could ask again if this is her Final Word. She will not end her cheating affair?

Same answer? Then you are free and clear to leave. Could tell her you want out. Then get ON with the business of removing yourself from shenanigans so YOU can be safe. Disband shared whatevers and seperate households.
It is NOT an ultimatum for you to choose to leave her because you are no longer compatible. She now chooses unethical behaviors you cannot condone. She is going places you are not willing to follow.

You are allowed to choose healthy behavior for yourself. You are allowed to choose a different path for yourself. Not only are you allowed, you have to in order to preserve your best long term healths and well being.

Whether she carries on with her affair or not is her business. You cannot control what she does or how she treats you.

You DO control what behavior you choose. You DO control your "staying-ness." You grant or do not grant you willingness to be here for more crazy.

If YOU have to choose between YOU respecting yourself or you NOT respecting yourself? Choose self respecting behavior.

Even if the price tag is leaving her to her cheating affair on her own and you remove yourself from the line of fire. Love her all you want... but from a safe distance and so YOU aren't racking up more dings.

Her asking you to put up with her having a cheating affair is all kinds of FRESH.

I do not suggest you STAY in this relationship with a partner who does not respect you. That can take time to take in, and digest, and accept that this is really the place you are at here. I get that. You will grieve... but again... even if it sucks? Could grit teeth, and do the job in front of you.


Could decide to opt out of continuing shenanigans.

Could leave so she gets a taste of what she's going to be facing if she doesn't get it together.

Could choose being true to yourself over compromising your own ethics or values.

Hang in there. It's not easy to feel, I know.

Namaste,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 05-08-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-08-2013, 01:01 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
I do know C, not very well, but we've had a few interactions, and they were positive. She's R's mentor at work, and a nice and giving person. I do believe her marriage has it's problems, and from what she tells R, she tried to discuss them with her wife and was shut down. (<--- Cheating Affair partner's word is truthy HOW? She's could be spinning whatever at your partner to get your partner.)
Yes. She is being "nice." The other meaning for "nice" is "accurate, exact, or fitting" The cheating lying person lies to people. Now she's just also lying to your partner. This IS nice and accurate expectation of a liar. Expect them to lie some more. That fits.

If you mean "nice" like "pleasant?" Someone can be pleasant at work but a jerk at home. Because it serves them. That's called two-faced.

So she's a two faced liar. Ugh.

At more time goes on and more stuff comes up? When the lying person continues behavior that shows their true colors? Continues with lies to get what they want? Could believe they are lying person!

It's just that she's smoothie talkin' your partner now.

Quote:
I don't think her wife is oblivious as to their problems, but I also don't think she knows she's being cheated on repeatedly . This is partly why I won't tell on C to her wife, she is a stranger to me. If she weren't, this would probably be unbearable.
So you would tell a friend her house was on fire. But not a stranger?

Quote:
Granted, I don't think C is handling her marriage very well. But who am I to judge. It's harder for older lesbians in a conservative country like ours. And there is honor in sticking it out for the kids even when your unhappy. I am inclined to be judgmental, but am working hard to find some compassion towards her situation (but not towards her choices!). Every relationship is complicated, there are no bad guys and good guys here (actually, there are no guys involved... ).
This sounds like bargaining talk to ease yourself out of feeling yucky about having chosen to not tell the stranger wife her house is on fire.

It's fine to decide NOT to right now. You don't have to tend to the planet. You have no obligation to.

But for your own well being in your thoughts and mental health? Could call it what it is. This talk is be talking myself out of making the call right now.

More accurate might be:

"I am full up at this time. So NO. At this time I don't care to tell the lady her house is on fire because I'm busy dealing with my OWN house on fire. There's only so much I can take at a time."

Shelve the telling til you are at a better time. Maybe give her the heads up then that her house is on fire. Maybe not. But could not start the slippery slope of telling yourself half baked stuff in your thoughts. YKWIM?

Your mental health is getting a workout here. This situation is hard enough as is. Keeping the ability to keep seeing clear is challenging without you adding bonus fog too. You have plenty fog from your partner and the cheating affair person to contend with.

You sound like a pleasant person in general -- could aim for NICE. Be accurate in living according to your code. Don't just "believe" your ethics. Exercise them. Could practice your hot beliefs and your hot ethics as you navigate through this wacky. That's what ethics are for -- to help you navigate.

Hang in there.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 05-08-2013 at 01:23 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-08-2013, 05:10 AM
Oly1 Oly1 is offline
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To be honest I meant "nice" in the usual sense, you know, a friendly and pleasant person. In the short time I've known her she has been very generous with me, helping me with a medical problem, doing favors and so on. Now I'm thinking this may have all been in an effort to get close to my wife. So maybe not so "nice" after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
It's just that she's smoothie talkin' your partner now.
That is definitely true. And worries me. R has actually been talking things that I know are C's words coming out of her mouth. Another reason to lose respect. And to talk back, so she can have some perspective, and a narrative that fights the justifications she's being fed.

In regards to telling on C to her wife, I never even considered it until someone here suggested it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
This sounds like bargaining talk to ease yourself out of feeling yucky about having chosen to not tell the stranger wife her house is on fire.
I don't actually think letting her know is the right thing to do. It might only cause more pain. And negatively affect the lives of children. So I don't need to talk myself out of it. I would have a very hard time with this if the woman being cheated on was a friend of mine, because I would have to actively not tell her. And I detest lying. But I would still probably refrain from telling.

I don't think the analogy is fire. If the children are OK, and otherwise the house may not be "on fire" but the kids will burn and suffer, than maybe not knowing is better. This is not someone who is happily at work or away somewhere and could be totally unaware of what their wife is doing. C and R get together at late hours with some really lame excuses. I would not burst a strangers' bubble, when they chose not to confront a difficult issue (yet?), just so I could feel better about myself while ignoring the fact that they, and everyone around them- kids included, would only suffer. Anyway, the "would you tell your friend you've seen her husband with another woman" dilemma is hard, and we each have our own perspective on it.

I am taking a time-out of sorts, and it might have a deadline, but I don't think a week will do. 8 years of true companionship merits a slightly longer chance to get it together. For now we are not sleeping in the same room, I've stopped touching her, and I don't ask her about her dates with C, how they went and so on. I don't actually ask her much of anything. Or share with her what's going on with me. So we do still live in the same house, but I don't think she's getting to go on with both the affair and our partnership. I don't think she gets it yet that this is how it's going to be for me until this is over, she might be telling herself I'm hurt and if she could only reassure me everything will be OK between us (as I am not unOK with the concept of her sleeping with others). But she will realize in a few days this is not me being hurt, this is me drawing a line in the sand. Lets see for how long she is willing to only get affection and attention from this other person, and see her life-partnership slipping from grasp. With all due respect to NRE, I chose to trust that she will get it together. I just hope she does so before it's too late.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-2013, 07:44 AM
Cleo Cleo is offline
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I'll tell my story, which has a slightly different perspective.

My husband has been with his GF for almost 2 years. She is cheating on her boyfriend, has other partners who cheat on their partners with her, and has cheated on my husband.

The situtation is not exactly the same as yours - she lives in another city, our social circles don't overlap, I almost never see her, and don't know any of her other partners.

So I'll just focus on the "I don't know who she is anymore, I thought she was an honorable person" part of your situation.

I have struggled very very hard with this, and am sometimes still struggling. It has been a major life lesson for me to get to the point where I understand that it is possible to love, honor and respect a person who loves someone I cannot love, honor or respect. And there are moments, even 2 years in, when I still get that feeling "Who are you?"

My husband is hs own person. He chooses his relationships. He chooses to be with her for reasons that are beyond my grasp. I try not to judge him for it, and focus on how he treats me (and there have been bumps in the road there, as well.. some broken rules and trust, little lies, etc., mostly in the beginning under the influence of NRE) and how he behaves towards me.

There's nothing I can tell him to do or not do when it comes to his one on one relationship with her. I can say what I do not want for myself, or for my life. Like, that I don;t want to socialize with her. That I don't ever want to be put in the position where I would have to lie for her. Certain things I don't like her to do when she is at our house (when I am not there).

I am not saying that this is a point you should get to. Certainly the situation where you know C.'s wife, and they work together, very much complicates things. I just wanted to point out that it is possible to have a happy poly relationship with someone who is in a relationship you don't like / approve. That is not a common viewpoint on these boards I think. And it's not ideal, but it's also not impossible.
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  #18  
Old 05-08-2013, 12:52 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
Now I'm thinking this may have all been in an effort to get close to my wife. So maybe not so "nice" after all.
That's what I was thinking.

"Nice" like accurate -- smoothie talkin' person just doing what it takes to get her own way. On the "surface" friendly as long as it serves her purposes, but not genuinely friendly.

It certainly is not "friendly" to put you and your partner as accessories to a cheating affair. And it is not "friendly" to be feeding your partner lies, or "massaged" lies so they go down more tasty. Your partner is NRE drunk (at best, but still lame reason to choose to participate in a cheating affair) or just not caring about anyone (worst) -- you or the wife!

Quote:
I would not burst a strangers' bubble, when they chose not to confront a difficult issue (yet?), just so I could feel better about myself while ignoring the fact that they, and everyone around them- kids included, would only suffer.
My point was that you only know information about their marriage situation FROM THE LYING C.

She only says "she tried to talk to her wife about the marriage problems but the wife shut her down." Did you get a verify from the wife that this is actually true? This conversation actually took place? Nope. I'm not hearing that.

So why believe what the liar said about the state of the marriage?

It's more attractive sounding for YOUR partner to hear "Oh, my wife doesn't understand me" type stuff or "My wife alienated me first" type stuff. That's classic cheater talk. It lures people in with their charm and goes down tastier than "I'm a two faced liar who keeps my wife in the dark about my cheating. Can I get into your pants now?"

On telling the wife... we have to differ on that one then. Because I think they ALREADY suffer. They are just unaware. Like cancer then, if not fire. Wife does not yet know the relationship is not healthy. But it is so there.

I would want to know if my partner were cheating on me. Someone who lies about cheating can lie about using protection when cheating too. Then they are putting MY body at risk when they have unprotected sex with ME. And that (given the right disease) could kill me.

But if you want to shelve it at this time, shelve it at this time. Think about it later -- you have your own problems.

If a week's "time out" is too short for you to come to the next decision take the time you need. Everyone is different. It was just a suggestion.

DO process and keep moving it forward. Could guard against anyone (C or your partner) smoothie talkin' you or playing on your soft feelings for your partner. This is messy -- look out for more smoke and mirrors.

I am glad you are in separate rooms and your "I am not on board with this" is being felt at home. There's consequences to choosing this, not just "losing respect." Let her feel that.

Hang in there,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 05-08-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-08-2013, 01:05 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
I have struggled very very hard with this, and am sometimes still struggling. It has been a major life lesson for me to get to the point where I understand that it is possible to love, honor and respect a person who loves someone I cannot love, honor or respect. And there are moments, even 2 years in, when I still get that feeling "Who are you?"
Quote:
I try not to judge him for it, and focus on how he treats me (and there have been bumps in the road there, as well.. some broken rules and trust, little lies, etc., mostly in the beginning under the influence of NRE) and how he behaves towards me.
Cleo, the above? Does not sound "happy" to me.

Quote:
I just wanted to point out that it is possible to have a happy poly relationship with someone who is in a relationship you don't like / approve.
It IS possible to be in some kind of relationship, I'll grant you that. But to me there's nothing "happy" sounding in there for you to me.

One doesn't have to love their metamour. But there can be respect.

But in both cases -- this is not "polyshipping" to me. This is "cheating affair-ing" to me.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 05-08-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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  #20  
Old 05-08-2013, 01:19 PM
Cleo Cleo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Cleo, the above? Does not sound "happy" to me.


well, I'm happy with him. I'm not always happy with his choices or with his relationship with GF. But it's my choice, and a positive choice, to accept it.
I don't see it as being resigned.
Yes, there was trust broken, but we've come a long way in 2 years.

No, I'm not always happy. It is not my goal to be always happy. The happy outweighs the unhappy more than enough. The unhappy is always a chance to learn more about myself, him, and our relationship.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, and I think my situation is very different from the OP. There are no absolute solutions here I think. But I do think that my point of view is one that is rarely heard on these boards, which is why I wanted to add my story - which is, in my opnion, not an unhappy one at all.
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