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  #11  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:06 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleo View Post
all of your (and your wife's) threads just make me so sad.

you married a woman who was in love with someone else. You knew, but you managed to delude yourself that these relations were separate - but when your wife had a baby, a major event in her life that she wanted to share with BOTH people she loved, this was no longer possible.

downhill from there.

I just don't think you all see the magnitude of the mistakes you made. you keep saying ' yeah we made mistakes we're human after all?' but you don't really want to face the consequences of the fact that you all lied to yourselves and to each other. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I've been reading all your threads from the beginning and this is what I see.

And even in all the turmoil, there is no willingness to really look at yourselves and see what went down. Because if you really did? you would not be posting here. You would be talking to each other.

You call Si an outside person. She was not an outside person. She was your wife's OTHER PARTNER. They were together almost as long as the 2 of you.

and no one seems to address the fact that you became sexually involved with a woman you resented being part of your life. 'Feelings came up'? what feelings? lust, love?
I just don't understand any of this, at all.
Harsh? Not at all. I've looked at myself. I've had to face myself and every misstep. There is such as thing as talking too much, and it's not like my wife is even here right now. Feel free to point out all of my mistakes, since I can't grasp the magnitude.

The relationships should've been separate. No two relationships grow at the same pace. No two relationships have the same needs. No two people are even the same. What happened in her other relationship didn't significantly impact my life one way or the other. They never should've been one big relationship. I'll beg to differ until someone can prove that it's healthy to think of a relationship as one. No matter what those two relationships weren't the same. Two entirely different people. Two different sets of needs. Two different sets of aspirations and goals. She wanted her what's it called interdependent familial model, and I wanted to treat it as it was.

There's nothing to understand. I resented her after a certain point. I didn't always dislike her. The first eight years, she didn't even matter. Sorry if that's cold, but it's the truth. I spoke if I saw her. We had no mutual friends. Still don't. My resentment was and still is primarily towards my wife. She allowed all of this to go on. The royal Snowflake was just part of it. Someone had to be giving her the OK. In comes the wife. Who is the reason why all of this happened? My wife and her wanting what she wanted. True. I fucked up. Maybe I should've tied her to a chair and demanded that she listen.

I dated her and slept with her a couple of times. That was short lived. I didn't feel right, so it stopped and never started again. Shit happens, and you move on. I didn't start resenting Snowflake until I felt like she was just overstepping, making decisions on her own, and becoming a habitual line stepper. I can't blame her for everything. Did I enjoy sharing certain moments with her? Nope. Did I go out of my way to make her feel welcome? Nope. I dealt with my resentment in an appropriate way. I had no problem asking her to back up and give us space. She respected it at first. I grew tired of having to make concessions and accommodations for her girlfriend, though. Did she really have to be around for everything? I don't think so. Nobody can package that and sell it to me.

Conspiring with my wife and making plans for my kids' futures without asking me? Making plans to do things with my kids without talking to me and expecting me to just accept it? You're doing too much. Step back and know your place.

FTR, getting involved with her was the biggest mistake of my life. I regret it every day. I wish I had never been involved or slept with her. It was not worth it. I complicated things with my error in judgement.

Last edited by Matt; 05-01-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-02-2013, 12:43 AM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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I got quick question I hope I didn't miss it if it has already been mentioned but is the nanny moving with you? Again Sorry if that has been adressed.
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  #13  
Old 05-02-2013, 01:52 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
Serious question. What should I do with my feelings?
Let me try to remember your background... correct me if I am wrong ok?

Well, how long has it been now? Two months ish? You had the "time out" to cool off. When you came back you wanted no part of Si yourself. But were prepared to stay in a polyship where your wife was seeing Si still. You were surprised when wife broke up with Si.

You have been going to couple therapy to repair broken trust in the marriage so any divorce plans were put on hold.

MARRIAGE

So you are now at this place:
Quote:
I don't assume anything when it comes to the Mrs. I got swift kick in the pants when I did that. I ask her questions, expect the truth, but still have doubts. There's little trust, so I'm supposed to believe her word is bond? No, thanks. That's a set-up for disappointment. Talking does nothing. I need to be shown. It's a long process to earn trust back. Those white lies chip away at the trust that is there. Telling me what I need to hear to get what she wants or to achieve a goal isn't OK. Its been addressed, but it's a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud.
Quote:
Some say my offer of divorce was a threat. It honestly wasn't. When you feel like you don't matter to someone and that they view you as expendable, why stay? I was hurting and the only one who didn't want to be part of a poly arrangement any longer, so it made sense for me to leave and let her have the life she wanted.
Is wife meeting all your needs/agreements for you to stay in the marriage and NOT continue on the divorce plan? Are you meeting all your agreements and meeting her needs for her to stay in the marriage and for her NOT continue on the divorce plan? Is being in the marriage something you both still want and are you becoming more compatible so the marriage can be healthy?

You still feel like wife does not listen? Do not trust the wife since she doesn't disclose fully ? Harbor resentments towards wife?

Are you still willing to stay in it and do what it takes to be in it and repair it? Or are you done trying? Too little a return for continued investment? Where's your temperature at on the marriage front?

CHILDREN

Do you still feel like these things below in regards to the kids?

Quote:
I felt undermined as a parent. I felt more like a sperm donor who had given a lesbian couple the children the always wanted than a father, so I suggested divorce. I consulted with lawyers. We had prenuptial and current post-nuptial agreements in place. The divorce would've been settled with no arguments from either side. Custody of our children? Nah. That would've been a contentious battle. We wanted two different things.
Do you still feel undermined as a coparent with wife and not valued by wife as a coparent? What are the "two different things" that you both want in terms of custody of the children?

THINKING OUT LOUD

This is just me thinking out loud ok? Let me ask this... Say you get a divorce. You (somehow) work out joint custody of the children and you are able to leave a polyship situation you dislike and establish a calmer, quieter home life for yourself.

Could you feel happier than you are now with your relationship with your wife? If her roles in your life were reduced to "co-custodial coparent" only? No longer wife to you? No longer roomie to you? No longer polyship partner to you?

How do you think you will feel about the time the children have with their mother, and their interacting with Si on ex-wife's custodial time?

Just as upset as you are now when they interact with Si? Or would it be better for you than what you have now because in joint custody YOUR days with the children are clear cut and you don't have to be checking in with anyone but yourself on your days to determine what activities you choose to do with the children (like go see Shrek or whatever?)

What are you feelings about that? Have you sat with those thoughts already?

You really can't sever the bond with wife of having created the children together. Even if you divorce and all that. Until one of you dies -- you, wife, or kids -- that bond is still there and you are still part of the kids lives. For the kid's sake as they grow, figuring out how to be civil to wife is better. Even if you still carry some resentments/distrust -- no need to color the children's graduations, weddings, births of THEIR kids etc with GRRR of the parent's clouding their every step for life.

But maybe you want YOUR daily life to be less nutty than it has been?

FWIW, my thoughts on this still are pretty much the same. That no matter how you slice it, there's going to be suckage somewhere. It's figuring out the path of least suckage then. I still think sorting that out is better with a cool head than a hot one. So... Where do you think that lies for you? The least sucky path?

I see that you continue to struggle and suffer. And I am sorry for that -- for both of your sakes. Nobody deserves suffering.

But 2 mos in is 2 mos in. I don't know what time frame you both set or even what bench marks you both set to measure as "enough progress is being made to make this still worthwhile to me" -- I guess I thought the counselor would help you guys lay that framework out so you chose realistic things for goals. One cannot rush healing. At the same time, one cannot put life on hold forever to deal in Crazy Town indefinitely.

But me in those shoes? I'd be tired of the crazy in my home life. If not divorce just yet, I'd be wanting a trial separation to at least catch a BREAK already in my daily living situation and get to step OFF the emotional roller coaster side of things even part time. I'd like to try something ELSE and see if that serves me better.

I'm sorry. I'm not sure that opinion is even helpful because I know I am not you and what I prefer in my life may not be what you prefer in yours.

But I do see you both still struggling. You both have to find your way -- either toward each other or toward a split or even toward a space (like a trial separation) where you can begin to make that call more clear headed and not all up and down.

You both deserve some peace. This neither here not there is exhausting for all parties.

In the end, I think only you can determine where that point lies with you -- the point of not enough return on your investment here to keep on investing more.

Namaste,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 05-02-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-04-2013, 07:26 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Well, how long has it been now? Two months ish? You had the "time out" to cool off. When you came back you wanted no part of Si yourself. But were prepared to stay in a polyship where your wife was seeing Si still. You were surprised when wife broke up with Si.
Two long months. The above is correct. She could've kept her relationship. At that point, I don't think I even cared. That's why divorce came all too easy. Did and I do I still love my wife? Yeah. I'm still in love with her, too. I don't have any regrets like wishing I had never married her or anything. Did I care about her relationship after I came back? Nope. It wasn't my problem, so I was indifferent. The damage had been done.

Yeah, divorce is on hold for now. I made it clear that at if any point I can't do this, I'm done. Like I told her, I'm trying every option from A-Y. Z or divorce is the last resort.

Quote:
Is wife meeting all your needs/agreements for you to stay in the marriage and NOT continue on the divorce plan? Are you meeting all your agreements and meeting her needs for her to stay in the marriage and for her NOT continue on the divorce plan? Is being in the marriage something you both still want and are you becoming more compatible so the marriage can be healthy?
She's meeting the relationship needs, for the most part. I wouldn't say 100%, but she's trying. I don't expect perfection. I know I'm not either. There's room for improvement on both sides. It's a work in progress. Some days are better than others. For example, the past couple of days have been better than the past couple of weeks. It's healthier than before.

Quote:
You still feel like wife does not listen? Do not trust the wife since she doesn't disclose fully ? Harbor resentments towards wife?
I know she doesn't listen. I don't trust her because I know she leaves parts out that could have a negative impact. I don't have any particular set of resentments with her at this particular moment. Frustration fits. I'm not really mad or upset about anything.

Quote:
Are you still willing to stay in it and do what it takes to be in it and repair it? Or are you done trying? Too little a return for continued investment? Where's your temperature at on the marriage front?
Yeah, I'm willing to try and stay. I'm not done trying. I might wake up tomorrow, and it might be another story. Today, I'm in. The return and the temperature are inconsistent and unstable. Some days the return is high and worth every pence invested. Other days, not so much. Some days I'm really warm towards the marriage and feel like it's without a doubt worth continuing the investment. Other days I analyse it like a financial portfolio, and it may not be worth it. Risk and analysis bid. Sometimes the risks of staying or leaving are higher than other days. The risks of leaving today are low. I expected highs and lows when we started the repair process.

Quote:
Do you still feel undermined as a coparent with wife and not valued by wife as a coparent? What are the "two different things" that you both want in terms of custody of the children?
The only time I do is when she goes against something I request like keeping that ex of hers away from my kids. Other than that, no. Custody wouldn't be split evenly or anything close. If my wife were to have her way, she'd have physical and sole custody. I'd have every other weekend and every other holiday. Maybe summers or a portion if I'm lucky. I don't do part-time parenting, and the Mrs. knows I'd never go along with that. With plans like that, there's no way it would be a cut and dry agreement. If necessary, I would fight her for custody. That's not the most comforting thought, but I couldn't go along with allowing her use the kids as a pawn in her game of revenge for me leaving her. That's what would happen.

My idea was more along the lines of our kids visiting me every 1st, 3rd, and 5th weekend. Alternating weekends and more of an extended agreement than her having them Monday-Friday and me only seeing them from Friday afternoon to Sunday evening, alternating holidays, breaks, etc. I just feel like kids shouldn't have to suffer and spend very little time with a parent. It should be balanced as possible. My idea also included an overnight visit every week. During, I'll say the first week of the month, she would have them all day Sunday-Tuesday, most of Wednesday, and I'd pick them up on Wednesday evening and bring them back on Thursday. She would have them the remainder of Thursday, and I'd have them from Friday evening to Monday morning. That would be the start of a new week. She would have them the remainder of Monday and all of Tuesday. From Wednesday to Thursday, they'd be with me. She'd have them the entire weekend on that week, all of Monday, all of Tuesday, and I'd see them for the overnight visit Wednesday-Thursday. She'd have them the remainder of Thursday, and the first half of Friday. I'd pick them up on Friday, and return them on Monday. I hope it makes sense. It makes more sense on paper, and it's pretty simple to follow. Is this being unreasonable or unfair? What would you change?

Quote:
Could you feel happier than you are now with your relationship with your wife? If her roles in your life were reduced to "co-custodial coparent" only? No longer wife to you? No longer roomie to you? No longer polyship partner to you?
Probably not. She'd likely be the ex-wife and custodial parent from hell. Divorce makes people lose it. Even more so if you're hurt or upset after. I suggested divorce, and it set her off. Imagine if I were to actually divorce her. The divorce may be a clean break, but I'd have more hell then than now. When I weigh the two, it isn't so bad where I'm at right now.

Quote:
How do you think you will feel about the time the children have with their mother, and their interacting with Si on ex-wife's custodial time?
I still wouldn't be OK with it, so I'd be just as upset. If not more so. She'd probably have more say than me, and she'd still be around my kids, which is just a no for me.

Quote:
What are you feelings about that? Have you sat with those thoughts already?
I have sat with all of these thoughts. We've discussed it all, which is why I know how she thinks. I'm trying to work with my wife. Sure she gets on my nerves. Sure there are days where I don't even want to be around her. It's still worth trying to save, so I'm going to put forth the effort and try to save it.

Quote:
You really can't sever the bond with wife of having created the children together. Even if you divorce and all that. Until one of you dies -- you, wife, or kids -- that bond is still there and you are still part of the kids lives. For the kid's sake as they grow, figuring out how to be civil to wife is better. Even if you still carry some resentments/distrust -- no need to color the children's graduations, weddings, births of THEIR kids etc with GRRR of the parent's clouding their every step for life.
You're right. I prefer civility over hostility with her.

Quote:
But maybe you want YOUR daily life to be less nutty than it has been?
Its been constant chaos and misery almost every day. Don't get me wrong. There have been a couple of bright spots, but the ominous presence of darkness has been present more often than not.

Quote:
FWIW, my thoughts on this still are pretty much the same. That no matter how you slice it, there's going to be suckage somewhere. It's figuring out the path of least suckage then. I still think sorting that out is better with a cool head than a hot one. So... Where do you think that lies for you? The least sucky path?
For the time being, staying in the marriage provides the path of less suckage. The catch is her ex has to stay away from my kids, or it goes back to Suckville, UK. This past week would've been OK--minus my Mrs. feeling down about the state of our progress. Her ex was nowhere to be seen and wasn't around the kids. It's something about her ex that doesn't sit right with me. This was a happier week for me. I felt what my wife was feeling, so I talked to her and gauged her feelings. We've decided to seek another therapist and take a break until then. Just talking brought us a little closer. I'm still opting to stand-off and not divulge certain feelings, but it helped to talk. I understand her feelings and thoughts.

Quote:
But 2 mos in is 2 mos in. I don't know what time frame you both set or even what bench marks you both set to measure as "enough progress is being made to make this still worthwhile to me" -- I guess I thought the counselor would help you guys lay that framework out so you chose realistic things for goals. One cannot rush healing. At the same time, one cannot put life on hold forever to deal in Crazy Town indefinitely.
We had framework laid out. Something in our household changes every day. We'll take a couple of positive steps forward and ten back. It's a constant pull between regression and progression. I'm tired of the madness in my home life. The only time I get a break is when I'm sleep. I'm not against a trial separation. I had the most peace I've had in many years when I was gone.

I'd like to find my way back to her, but I can't help but wonder if we've reached the peak together and just need to climb back down separately. I don't trust her, and it's hard to have a relationship with no trust. It can be earned back, but that can take years. Though our marriage has issues, the biggest issue of all is that ex of hers and our ideas of parenting and who should be involved. She wants her to be involved. I don't. That's the one thing we argue over. She's fighting that hard for Snowflake to be involved in raising our kids, but I wonder if she's willing to fight that hard to help save our marriage and earn my trust back.

Last edited by Matt; 05-04-2013 at 09:36 PM.
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  #15  
Old 05-05-2013, 02:16 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Sounds like you have given it a lot of thought and are realistic about the "repair process" having up and downs in it. Esp at the beginning.

Kudos!

Quote:
She's fighting that hard for Snowflake to be involved in raising our kids, but I wonder if she's willing to fight that hard to help save our marriage and earn my trust back.
Well... could ask her. "Are you willing to fight that hard to help save our marriage and earn my trust back?"

Any response to that?

Galagirl
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  #16  
Old 05-08-2013, 08:47 AM
Zed Zed is offline
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I'm sorry to read about your and your wife's misery. No one enjoys these fights and least, the kids.

My parents went through a divorce when I was about 11 years old. And in my country, with our super slow judicial system, that process was drawn out for 10 years. During which there was a constant tension in the house, sometimes shoutings, sometimes cold silences. My younger brother and I went through a real rough patch. I think that we still carry some of those negative feelings we had back then with us today, and that it's affecting us even now as an adult. I can be very insecure and suspicious at times and that leads to anger and that leads to having shout downs of my own with people I love...

My brother and I don't talk about those days, we didn't then and we don't now. We just moved on. But I know that we both have unspoken feelings deep down, perhaps even guilt. Yeah, children can feel responsible for their parents splitting up... But when I look back at those days now, as a 27 year old adult, I see how pointless it all was and how much potential for happiness they threw away. Today they both live separately, none of them remarried, and they both feel quite alone.

When we were young, Mom was the one to always wake up early and make us breakfast, drive us to school, take us out to the beach on holidays, etc. Dad was usually busy with work and didn't join us. We spent time with him when he was free, but I don't think he made much of an effort to make free time to spend with us. Even when we went on vacation, we went to visit mom's parents and dad hardly joined us for that. Neither did he try to plan trips that didn't involve meeting the in-laws, if that's the reason why he didn't join us in the first place. So fun time gradually meant Mom to us.

Dad loves us like crazy, no doubt about it. But he didn't spend enough time with us growing up... and that also means he didn't spend much time with Mom.

I wonder what would have happened if they spent more time together, without us kids. What if they started "dating" again... I wonder if they wouldn't have forgotten why they got married in the first place.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:29 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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I finally had the chance to talk to my Mrs.'s ex. Apologies were issued on both sides. It was a productive talk. It lasted a few hours. We remained civil, and respect was present. There was no talking over each other. I heard her out, and she heard me out. We reached a level of understanding and agreement. Everything was addressed and put out in the open. Tension was thick but we managed and handled it like adults.

I apologised for how I conducted myself back in March. Some of the things I said were no doubt hurtful. I said many things in anger, and I should've tried to control that more than I did. I didn't mean it when I told her that I wished she had never been around. Fact is she has been just as long as me. She never was an evil person. I also apologised for making her feel unwanted and like she wasn't part of the fam. That was mean. We're not the conventional fam. I know there's no such thing as the perfect parent. I probably expected too much of her. Hell, I have room to improve myself. Each day is a chance to be better than the last. I make mistakes. Her cutting them off was a mistake, and she said she regrets doing that every single day. She wants to make amends and correct that. I legitimately believe she loves my kids. I don't think she meant to hurt them. I always had doubts aboutt her love and how deep it really was, but it was the way she said it. There was conviction and sincerity behind her words.

We cleared up a huge misunderstanding. Her lack of parenting wasn't because she didn't want to be there. She just didn't know what needed to be done, so she did what she wanted as she saw fit. She assumed that amongst the three of us, it was already covered, and she thought we didn't need the help. Like I told her parenting doesn't come with a handbook. You just go with it and fumble until you get it right. If given the proper chance, I'm sure she'd probably be good at it.

The topic of moving came up. She explained that she had reservations about moving, and she was worried about starting all the way over. She told my Mrs. towards the end of last year about her reservations. She said that back then it was just jitters, but that they still made backup plans. She apologised for going over my head and behind my back. My Mrs. already told me why she did it, but it helped having the other person explain her involvement. She always wanted to move and even planned on continuing to go after the reservations were expressed, and she didn't officially decide to back out until I told her she wasn't part of the family and that it wouldn't make much of a difference if she was there or not. I apologised for saying that because it does matter to my kids. Seeing my kid that sad killed me inside. I owed it to my kid to try and make peace. Snowflake is important to my kid. After our argument, she backed away from the plans because she didn't want to be somewhere that she wasn't wanted. I knew I was the reason but hearing it for myself made me realise just how I had treated her.

The plan was for her to move with the fam. The home we purchased was picked out by the three of us. We all agreed on it. My Mrs.'s ex decided how she wanted her in-law suite/guest house to look. She contributed financially. We were going to try a modified version of cohabitation. She would've been living separately but on the same property. She had lined up a new job, and all the signs pointed to her relocating. I found out tonight that she still wants to go and still wants to keep the plans, if we will still have her.

She apologised for how she reacted, everything she said during the argument, overstepping my boundaries, and making me feel undermined. That wasn't her intention. Her apologies all seemed sincere, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't give her a second chance. I gave my wife one. Before we fell out and before the feelings came into play, we had forged a friendship. I cared about her, and after talking to her, I still do. No denying that. I'd like to repair some of the damage and try to be cordial and maybe even friends again one day.

I don't see her as enemy like I did. Deep down, she's a good person. Hell, I dated her. Her judgement might not have been the best, but it's cool. I can't hate her for making mistakes. I damn sure made my share of them.

I don't know what the next step is. We've agreed that if she moves, we're going to therapy together. If not, we're still going to try to repair the damage. We can't fix this on our own. We owe it to the kids to act like we have sense and work together at least for their benefit. She offered to find a flat elsewhere if it would be too much of an inconvenience for her to still move in with us. I don't know about all that. She invested half of the funds to complete the renovation on the guest house. It's as good as hers, and we'd have to reimburse her if she moves somewhere else or doesn't move at all.

The Mrs. and I were talking about what had been discussed, but we chose to leave it be for the night. We'll pick back up when she comes over for dinner.

Last edited by Matt; 05-09-2013 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:43 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Holy full-circle-city, Batman!

At least you finally came around after your daughter made her feelings known.

Have a good future.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:47 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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So glad to hear all of this. One thing I had to keep emphasizing when the husband and I were working on things is the idea of working as a team. Making the team work takes a lot more coordination, communication and team meetings than just assuming someone else will be picking up the slack. Once you can work as a team, life seems so much less stressful.

OMG! Talk about a couple of hard headed oafs . You guys are going to have to work on that.

Last edited by SNeacail; 05-08-2013 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:11 AM
Matt Matt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNeacail View Post
So glad to hear all of this. One thing I had to keep emphasizing when the husband and I were working on things is the idea of working as a team. Making the team work takes a lot more coordination, communication and team meetings than just assuming someone else will be picking up the slack. Once you can work as a team, life seems so much less stressful.

OMG! Talk about a couple of hard headed oafs . You guys are going to have to work on that.
It probably will be easier working as a team than going it alone. I don't know. I'm used to being at odds with my Mrs. Working with her isn't in my blood. That's going to take work like a job. I need benefits or something out of the deal if I have to work with both of them.
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