Theoretical vs reality

[MonoVCPHG]

Human beings have a tendency to not learn from the mistakes of others. We have a sick need to experience e the results of shitty decisions for ourselves. I suffered from this too. But after experiencing something I have no problem climbing on my high horse from a position of knowledge and expressing my views. There is no excuse to turn a blind eye to partners' actions. If a person says I wouldn't engage in an affair but then has a relationship with someone who has an unaware partner, their original statement is null and void….it is bullshit. Values are not generally something turned on and off to suit specific situations. If you are with a person who is having an affair, then you are having an affair. Affairs might reflect the ability to love more than one person which is a part of being poly, but affairs are not indicative of poly behaviour. I do not associate having affairs with polyamorous behaviour, nor do I associate them with monogamous behaviour...I associate them with destructive behaviour. This is my experience, my observation, my opinion. Would I be a child molester if my partner was? No. Am I directly hurting that child? No…but turning a blind eye to that would be hurting that child. Turning a blind eye to that would be perpetuating and enabling that behaviour. Nothing would be learned and lives would be damaged.

[crisare]

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

I do not associate having affairs with polyamorous behaviour, nor do I associate them with monogamous behaviour...I associate them with destructive behaviour.

Mono, you are brilliant and I love you! (um ... with all respect to redpepper, of course! ).

Seriously that's the perfect way to phrase that.

[CielDuMatin]

Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit

Yea, the theory of absolutes. I have yet to meet a person who 'never' lies. Nor have I met a person who has lied to me who 'never' tells the truth. I think we have to live with that aspect of being human and keep our lie detection equipment tuned and oiled. The reason people lie (barring pathological liars) is generally in an attempt to have the best outcome from an unfavorable situation by shielding people from a truth that could be more destructive to them. We've all seen cases where that was wrong-headed but also cases where it (unfortunately) was the correct choice. Not B/W.

No, not the theory of absolutes at all. It's about gathering data points on people's activities and extrapolating from them.

If you are a business owner and you know that someone habitually shoplifts from all the stores around you, would you tend to believe that they would shoplift from you, or not? Wouldn't it at least make you cautious?

If someone has made vows to another person to love, honor and be together till death us do part, and then wants to have a fling with me and not tell their spouse - what are the odds (not black and white - odds) that they might not tell me the complete truth about something important to do with the relationship? You build trust with people by observing how the deal with other people and how they deal with you - you try to build a picture of that person given the data. The fact that they can lie to their back teeth to someone they made that sort of level of commitment to paints a pretty darned significant red flag into my picture of them.

Is it possible that they may tell you the truth? Of course it is. It's also possible that their spouse might come after you with an Axe when they find out. That's not "healthy".

[Ariakas]

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

Human beings have a tendency to not learn from the mistakes of others. We have a sick need to experience e the results of shitty decisions for ourselves. I suffered from this too.

I definitely relate to this, and am quite happy by it. My mistakes are mine and belong to me, the reason is simple, I hope to succeed where others have failed. There are many things in life over my 34 years that if I had not done it because someone else failed or couldn't do it.

Sorry about the hijak, I always find that point of view interesting as it was the biggest argument and in the end divide between my father and I

[redpepper]

There are many links on here to cheating btw... if one were to do a search for tagged threads or a general search about cheating there are many... just to let anyone know and in terms of whether or not this thread has value on a poly forum. and if you want more reading

I went for coffee with someone yesterday that I have never met before. He is new to the community and as I am very much involved he got a hold of me and wanted to talk "shop." He and his wife were talking about poly for years and were well on there way to setting some boundaries and relationship rules when he met and fell in love with some one. He let his NRE get away with him as did she. She identified as poly and had several lovers... so she should of known better, but didn't. Anyway they slept together twice and after the second time they both broke down and decided not to ever see each other again. His wife found out what had happened and left him for a week...when she came back she told him that because they were so co-dependent she didn't have the strength now to leave him for good. If she had found out before he had slept with her that he was intending too and that their friendship had gotten out of hand, she would of left then because she had strength to still. He is now having to step waaaaay back and start again building trust, if in fact they ever can. It seems to of proven that he really is poly, in that he was very much in love with both of them, but has unfortunately also proven that he struggles with the way to actually achieve his goal of being so in real life. Essentially, he thinks that he may of saved his marriage due to his cheating... I disagreed entirely, he has just made his wife more co-dependent and has damaged their relationship possibly even more so because of it.

[Fidelia]

Originally Posted by Fidelia;
The arrangement described is not polyamorous,

Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit

I might just ask that you just climb down off the high horse and not bother with the personal attacks
GS

I have not attacked you personally, Mr. Spirit. I have disagreed (adamantly, wholeheartedly, and with every fiber of my being) with your position and with the actions you have self-reported to have taken in the past. I continue to do so, and will continue to do so. As one of the many of people who have been seriously harmed by the arrangement you've described, I can do no less. If you find offense where none was offered or intended, so be it.

There are many areas of human life which are subject to discussion, negotiation and debate among reasonable persons. There are, however, some areas where issues are very clear and may be concisely expressed. Such as:

Lying is wrong.
Cheating is wrong.

Just as
Stealing is wrong, and
Murder is wrong.

In general, and with no particular persons in mind specifically, I may unequivocally state that people who lie are liars. People who cheat are cheaters. People who steal are thieves and murderers are people who commit murder. And people who make room for such activities in thier lives, or who aid and abet such activity, will face the consequences of thier actions, as all people do.

And again I state that the arrangement you describe is not polyamory, if polyamory is defined as multiple loving relationships between consenting adults.

And since you brought it up, yes, my horse is high, thank you, and from the saddle I can see far and ride fast.

[mez]

Originally Posted by Fidelia

Originally Posted by Fidelia;
There are some areas where issues are very clear and may be concisely expressed. Such as:

Lying is wrong.
Cheating is wrong.

Just as
Stealing is wrong

I may unequivocally state that people who lie are liars. People who cheat are cheaters. People who steal are thieves. And people who make room for such activities in thier lives, or who aid and abet such activity, will face the consequences of thier actions, as all people do.

This absolutism really causes me problems and leaves me upset because I am a liar and have stolen.

I will explain I have lied to people quite frequently in the past in my old job I purposely and with intent told suicidal people that their knives had gone missing from their kitchen - having pocketed them all and handed them on to authorities - stole shotgun shells off the shelf of a suicidal man that intended to kill himself with his shot gun. Told people I had no idea where their tablets were when I pocketed them. I guess you can get me on a kind of cheating too on this basis. This list isn't exhaustive and I will hang my head in shame at your external judgement.

I thankfully add that I haven't murdered anyone.

I could add that in regard to having stolen - a large number of transported 'criminals' that stole bread to survive make up a fair proportion of the ancestors of Australians.

[Ceoli]

Originally Posted by mez

I will explain I have lied to people quite frequently in the past in my old job I purposely and with intent told suicidal people that their knives had gone missing from their kitchen - having pocketed them all and handed them on to authorities - stole shotgun shells off the shelf of a suicidal man that intended to kill himself with his shot gun. Told people I had no idea where their tablets were when I pocketed them. I guess you can get me on a kind of cheating too on this basis. This list isn't exhaustive and I will hang my head in shame at your external judgement.

This is why I prefer to talk about making choices that honor your values rather than absolutes of "right" and "wrong". Sometimes we do things that line up with our values, other times we don't. Ideally, we lean more towards our values rather than away. Ideally, those values would involve respect and care for the people and life around them, but this can't always be the case, alas.

[CielDuMatin]

Originally Posted by Ceoli

This is why I prefer to talk about making choices that honor your values rather than absolutes of "right" and "wrong". Sometimes we do things that line up with our values, other times we don't. Ideally, we lean more towards our values rather than away. Ideally, those values would involve respect and care for the people and life around them, but this can't always be the case, alas.

Very good point, Ceoli! It also means that when you meet others with drastically different values than you, you can think of it in those terms, rather than thinking that they are somehow "right" or "wrong" for believing what they do.

[NeonKaos]

Originally Posted by CielDuMatin

Very good point, Ceoli! It also means that when you meet others with drastically different values than you, you can think of it in those terms, rather than thinking that they are somehow "right" or "wrong" for believing what they do.

I would think of it as "wrong" if an outsider decided to take it upon him or herself to "help" me with my relationship(s) without my knowledge and agreement, even if it was in accordance with that individual's "values". I don't need any "favors" like that - I can handle my own business just fine thank you very much.