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  #21  
Old 04-22-2013, 03:04 PM
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Natja Natja is offline
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Awww Guidelines...uniting Pirates and Poly more and more every day....
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  #22  
Old 04-22-2013, 03:54 PM
CherryBlossomGirl CherryBlossomGirl is offline
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Default Yessss!

I have to admit that these exact thoughts were what prompted me to write this. I read 'The Secondary Bill of Rights' and was shocked that not only did people seem to be taking the document seriously, they were requoting it, bringing it to discussion groups, etc, and worse, that couple-shaming was starting to emerge with it as a reference. I thought, "Where's the "other side" if we're going to be saying, I'm on THIS side of the fence, and you're on THAT side of the fence."

What was curious to me is that people had no problems standing up for the 'rights' of a secondary partner despite their mistakes and limitations as people, but members of partnership who were making mistakes/coming up against limitations seemed to be quickly shamed, judged, name called, and even bullied on this forum, and in other forums and discussion groups that I participate in. I wrote about what I saw coupled people being shamed for, judged about, and treated badly over. To me, humans are humans no matter what relationship structure they come with, and while some of the mistakes they make may fall into patterns, I felt like basic 'rights' were being overlooked for coupled people struggling just as much as for 'single-ish' or 'secondary partners' finding their way. It is another side of the same coin of 'doing poly ethically' and 'not being an asshole'. The one-sided approach that I have been watching emerge reeks of bullshit to me, and I wanted to address that; people have the allowance to ask for what they need, be safe, enjoy honesty and full disclosure, be respected, and take care of themselves, and their lives/other relationships within the context of a new relationship, regardless of their relationship structure, no?

I mean, who doesn't have the 'right' to slow the pacing of a relationship down if it's moving too fast or is pushing a life out of balance? What's with the double standards for singled/coupled poly people - it being fine for a single person to take a step back if they want to work on other relationships, or their personal relationship with self - but being up for judgement if a couple steps back to work on their relationship, or their personal relationship with self?

My thought is that there should be some sort of general constitution/guide/whatever you'd like to call it around what forms having an ethical poly relationship, no matter WHAT side you're coming to it from. Part of having that pendulum swing to the middle is to present the another POV, and see what discussions and writings come out of it.

I think the word right is (mostly) inappropriate as well, and introduced it as a direct reply to the 'Secondary Bill of RIGHTS'. It's (largely) alienating, assumptive and presumes ownership over decisions that involve another person.

I'd LOVE to see a similar document crafted that is just about doing poly ethically, and a good foundation for discussion between people doing poly, especially those new to it. As we build our own experience, things like this seem largely unnecessary, but in the beginning, it would be helpful.

Yesss!

Last edited by CherryBlossomGirl; 04-22-2013 at 04:33 PM.
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  #23  
Old 04-22-2013, 05:48 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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I don't think the secondary BoR was intended as a comprehensive guide to ethical nonmonogamy.

Oh wait. I just realized that that essay DOES come from xeromag's site. I thought it was written on here and referenced by the other site.

Yeah, franklin uses provocative language for sure. I would take what you can use and disregard the rest. I really wish that people would not let him do their thinking for them. It isn't so much that i disagree with his writing, it's that i find it gross how others propagate it as a meme and it becomes part of "poly popular culture" that way.

Do not ever believe that just because it's on xeromag or morethantwo, that it must be "true".
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  #24  
Old 04-22-2013, 06:40 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
I'd LOVE to see a similar document crafted that is just about doing poly ethically
That's the thing. I think every polyship could just co-create that for themselves based on the wants/needs/limits of the people in that polyship. What their personal ethics standard is for THEM.

There is no universal form because there's as many ways to "do poly" as there are "poly people." People value different things.

I know what I want for my own polyship standard. My short list is my short list. *shrug*

I see you trying to draft something for yourself so... go for it. Just as all people could go for it.

As to the "breaking up" thing... and how to word it?

"I have the right to be broken up with the way I prefer. Ie : ______(whatever form that is for you) ______. "


Don't get too hung on what to call your paper:
  • rules
  • agreements
  • charter
  • guidelines
  • expectations
  • personal standard
  • talking points list
  • promises
  • something else?

Whatever it is you call it? Just hand it over to the people you want to share it with and... talk. Talk it out, see what falls into place, what doesn't and if you want to share being together or not with a tool you co-created. A talking tool that hopefully helps you be and stay in right relationship to each other and minimizes dings and helps you resolve conflicts.

Or at the very least, an initial talking tool that helps you get to know each other better and discern if you are compatible or not to begin with.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 04-23-2013 at 12:59 AM.
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  #25  
Old 04-22-2013, 07:37 PM
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Natja Natja is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
That's the thing. I think every polyship could just co-create that for themselves based on the wants/needs/limits of the people in that polyship. What their personal ethics standard is for THEM.

There is no universal form because there's as many ways to "do poly" as there are poly people." People value different things.
Great idea GG! I think it is important for people to create together based upon the needs of ALL the people involved, rather than to impose from on high.

Natja
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  #26  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:07 PM
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hyperskeptic hyperskeptic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
That's the thing. I think every polyship could just co-create that for themselves based on the wants/needs/limits of the people in that polyship. What their personal ethics standard is for THEM.

There is no universal form because there's as many ways to "do poly" as there are poly people." People value different things.

I know what I want for my own polyship standard. My short list is my short list. *shrug*

I see you trying to draft something for yourself so... go for it. Just as all people could go for it.

As to the "breaking up" thing... and how to word it?

"I have the right to be broken up with the way I prefer. Ie : ______(whatever form that is for you) ______. "
Fair point. But let me ask: Is there any sort of general guiding principle behind all this, a standard of conduct that applies no matter what form the relationship takes?

Do you think that, in general, people who are entering in to a relationship with one another ought to treat one another as free and equal in working out the terms of their relationship? Should they avoid harming the other person or exposing them to risks to which they do not consent? Should people aim to be honest and worthy of trust?

Those are the kinds if ethical principles or reasonable expectations I have in mind. As I've stated them here, they're really really general - they may apply to all people in just about any situation. There may be ways of making them more specific to the kinds of relationships we generally talk about on this forum without - and this is the main thing - micromanaging or dictating the precise form of a relationship.

Or am I coming at this thread all sideways? I really should start a new thread of my own!

Last edited by hyperskeptic; 04-22-2013 at 08:12 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:13 PM
CherryBlossomGirl CherryBlossomGirl is offline
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Default Not just for me.

That's the thing with this list though - it's not just for me. It holds advice, experiences and struggles that I've seen over and over again in poly couples opening up, and the emerging pop-poly-culture of couple-prejudice (in part because of Franklin's article).

I'm thinking of a basic how to list. Covering the basics so that there is some kind of concise list of discussion topics for people entering into poly. If people don't, say, have a conversation about how to be good stewards of NRE, it can get away from them rather swiftly. Having conscious and condensed tools that don't come in the form of a large book (of which there are now several, more being written, I'm sure) can be pretty dang helpful.

I got the idea too from the selection of 'rules' that my sister and her partner shared with me that I turned into a concise list - it was condensed knowledge on how to maintain an established/primary partnership while opening up to emotionally connected/sexual relationships with other people. It wasn't a Bible, it was a list of guidelines and resulted in some super provoking conversations, several private messages thanking me for posting it, and discussions in my own life that were super beneficial. Lists of established boundaries/rights/whatever you want to call them can be a really great springboard for finding your own way, based on a tried, tested and true framework from more experienced members of the 'poly' community.

It's like if someone wrote a list, "Helpful Guidelines for Unicorn Hunters" it could condense huge swathes of experience and knowledge and boil it down into the most frequently tripped over issues in newly forming triads.

Don't know if I'm making any sense.....

Last edited by CherryBlossomGirl; 04-22-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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  #28  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:18 PM
CherryBlossomGirl CherryBlossomGirl is offline
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Default On High, Nuh Uh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natja View Post
Great idea GG! I think it is important for people to create together based upon the needs of ALL the people involved, rather than to impose from on high.
It's not meant to be on high, it's meant to be a framework for discussion and meaningful dialogue around some of the common pitfalls/area of struggle in poly.
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  #29  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:48 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Is there a "Polyamory/nonmonogamy for Dummies" book yet? There are books like that about almost every topic one can imagine it seems. One section of the book is always, no matter what is the topic, called "The Part of Tens" and it contains lists about various aspects of the topic with ten things on each list. If you are unfamiliar with the format followed by "For Dummies", pick up any book like that at the library or look for one on Amazon with a thing that says "Look Inside" on it, and that lets you view the table of contents.

I just think that if you have to go to all this trouble to teach someone basic manners and decency, maybe you're better off being just friends or better off without them altogether. My best relationships (two of which i am in right now) have always been ones where we hardly ever discuss the relationship because we're having a good time HAVING them.
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  #30  
Old 04-22-2013, 10:45 PM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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Hey BP I'm going to take your bill to my fb group for discussion. I will link it back to here. Primary/secondary discussion has been a topic of debate lately and is a good addition. Hence the thread I started on it here. Thanks for this!
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