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  #31  
Old 04-17-2013, 07:27 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Originally Posted by KerrBear View Post
My husband cannot and will not get my bf fired. My husband is a higher ranking employee because he's been there longer. This isn't easy for them and I know this. It's not like this was planned but they work together okay. They have came to agreement that they don't talk about it at work and they usually follow that.
It's not JUST about if your husband can get your bf fired or not. If your husband is making your bf's work environment unbearable or overly stressful with his sexual harassment, your husband could get fired. It doesn't even have to be your bf that reports it. The bullshit at work needs to STOP!
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2013, 07:43 PM
KerrBear KerrBear is offline
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Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
Your husband thinks he is in competition with this other guy, so he feels inclined to rub his nose in every thing. And they work together? Oy vey. Definitely not the right approach. I do wonder how into the whole poly thing is your husband. How much time was devoted to talking about this? Why are the rules constantly changing? Is he even sure he wants to do this? How much time occurred between transitioning from swingers into polyamoury? I am trying to establish a timeline.

No, you are not asking for too much, but I gather that your husband is not comfortable with you being alone with him in the bedroom. Or he could just be into the whole voyeurism thing. It turns some people on to watch someone pleasing their partner. No, it would not be crossing a line. Who knows what his reaction might be? He might decide that he is totally against you and the boyfriend having sex in the house. You never know.
How much time was devoted to talking about this?

For years my husband has been pinning for me to bring my best friend into our bedroom. He thought it would be a great idea to have me and someone I loved that would love him too. So he has been playing the "poly idea" for years. It's just that, it was HIM having the poly relationship, not necessarily the other way around.

I personally have never thought I was going to be in a poly relationship at all. I wasn't looking for it but always liked the thought of maybe having a swinger couple share our home with us. I have expressed this desire with my husband and he said it would also be fun with the right couple.

So that is pretty much the extent of our poly background. Which is zero. This is our first serious attempt at one.

Why are the rules constantly changing?

I think it's because my husband doesn't know what he wants. He makes rules up as we go along based on how he's feeling about things but doesn't really listen to what me and my boyfriend are requesting in return. This is the issue. This is why I think there is a hangup here.

How much time occurred between transitioning from swingers into polyamoury?

Well, it started out as normal swinging behavior. It was all sexual based at first. For about half a month it was texting dirty but by the time my bf and I actually physically met, it was instant love for both of us. My husband is taken aback by how quickly we fell for each other, but my husband and I had also fallen in love with each other quickly.

We have talked about this pretty extensively. My husband realizes that I have had many swinger partners, even many single males, but not a single one of them has sparked an interest in me. I've even gone out and informed past casual partners that I'm no longer interested in being with them because I've figured out that's not what I was looking for at all.

I have known my bf for about two months. I know this is a short time, but I've only physically been with him five times out of the past eight weeks and only twice where we were completely alone without husband in the house.

I gather that your husband is not comfortable with you being alone with him in the bedroom. Or he could just be into the whole voyeurism thing.

At first, my husband was not comfortable with us being alone. But this is because it was a swinging rule that he had made. He liked to watch but I had expressed with him that I liked to be alone with my partners sometimes. So that was a little disagreement we've always had with our swinging. He is a total voyeur and really does get off watching me with another man and he has expressed he feels "left out" when I'm alone with another partner.

On the flip side of this, I'm not really a voyeur at all. I would rather NOT watch my husband be with another woman but I'm okay if he is. Generally, when we were at swinger events and camp-outs, I would "fish" for him because he's not good at it. Hook him a good one, watch until he starts getting busy, and exit stage right. I would then just chill with friends. I wasn't using it as an opportunity to swing alone, just to set the record straight . . .

We have talked about this and my husband is okay with us playing alone, he just doesn't like the "left out feeling" he still gets. He does understand that I have a real need to be with my bf alone, not just with him all the time.

With the way things are, I would rather my husband be in the opposite room when he says it's okay for my bf to come over when we are intimate with each other. We all hang out together good and the two of them really do get along well together most times. It's just my husband has exploded a few times and does little jabs that upset my bf.
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  #33  
Old 04-17-2013, 07:45 PM
KerrBear KerrBear is offline
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Originally Posted by SNeacail View Post
It's not JUST about if your husband can get your bf fired or not. If your husband is making your bf's work environment unbearable or overly stressful with his sexual harassment, your husband could get fired. It doesn't even have to be your bf that reports it. The bullshit at work needs to STOP!
And like I said, I completely agree with you. I did post that "it's fucking stupid" in my update for today. . . How to get husband to stop though?
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  #34  
Old 04-17-2013, 08:48 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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And like I said, I completely agree with you. I did post that "it's fucking stupid" in my update for today. . . How to get husband to stop though?
It's not just fucking stupid, it's deeply unethical, which is the point I was trying to make in my last post.

You asked how you are creating an unethical situation. Let's step back and just look at what's happening.

"My bf doesn't voice up but I have on several occasions and my husband gets upset and circles around about how horrible he has it because I'm not spending enough weekends with him and how he feels he can't provide for me financially."

This is my translation of what you described above:

You're saying: "Your sexual/kinky actions towards this person are unwanted by them."
A person acting ethically would say: "Then I will stop immediately, that is never ok, especially when it comes to emotionally sensitive things like humiliation-play that can be hot as hell when they're consensual but can verge on, or even tip over into, emotionally damaging abuse when they're non-consensual."
Your husband is saying: "Too bad, my insecurities in this situation warrant this non-consensual activity."
You're then saying, not with words but by your actions in continuing to participate in this sexual dynamic: "I accept that."

In theory, yes, your boyfriend should speak up. In reality, he's "used to being treated bad" (history of abuse?) and is also in a vulnerable, exploitable position (you say your husband couldn't and won't get your bf fired, maybe that's true, maybe your bf even intellectually believes that, but it would still be very valid and natural for him to feel fear over it... in this economy, losing your job can ruin your life and, in general, a manager can, in fact, get you fired), so saying "no" is naturally going to be hard and scary, maybe even impossible.

Someone has to put a stop to this. Your husband won't. Your boyfriend feels like he can't. It's up to you. How? Refuse to participate any more. No more group sex without an honest, open, three-person conversation(s) that lay out boundaries and agreements for safe, sane, consensual kink.

Since your bf seems to have a lot of trouble saying no within this relationship, I would strongly suggest that one of those agreements look like this: "These activities are on bf's 'gray' list [white = love it, I can be assumed to be ok with this unless I say no; gray = I'm semi-comfortable with this but it depends on circumstances, it's negotiable; black = never do this], and a clear, no-pressure 'yes, I would like this' must ALWAYS be obtained from bf before they occur."

I know I've kind of been flipping out about this. But it's clear that you love your bf, and I don't think you realize that you're playing with fire when it comes to his mind and his heart. Humiliation play is, for many, many people, a form of "edge play", which is to say that it comes very close to striking at things that could damage a person (other examples include breath restriction and consensual non-consent). You can't fool around with edge play, it's either done safely and consensually, or else you risk being in the heart-breaking position of discovering that you've badly messed up someone who means the world to you. Please be careful.
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Me, 30ish bi female, been doing solo poly for roughly 5 years. Gia, Clay, and Pike, my partners. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler.

Last edited by AnnabelMore; 04-17-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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  #35  
Old 04-17-2013, 09:04 PM
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Let me just add this. Your boyfriend is "used to being treated bad". Does this mean a history of abuse? Maybe it does and he's already told you about it. Maybe he's told you no such thing... and yet even then, it would be wise to assume it, since adults who allow others to treat them badly are very often repeating patterns from childhood. Maybe not speaking up when your husband non-consensually humiliates him feels like the only safe response because if he spoke back when his dad humiliated him as a kid, the next step was fists. Or something worse.

The only safe and wise thing to assume here is that there may be something like that in his past, based on the behavior he's exhibiting. As such, humilation moves from "might be edge play" to "definitely edge play, treat with utmost caution, be on the lookout for signs of distress (often non-verbal), and be prepared to stop all activity and provide comfort if distress is occurring." THAT is a safe environment. What you've been creating (actively in your husband's case, passively in yours) is not.

Please don't take this as me saying that you're uncaring predators. If I thought that, I wouldn't be wasting all this time typing. I just think you might not get this stuff yet, and that it's really, really important that you do, for all involved.
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Last edited by AnnabelMore; 04-17-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  #36  
Old 04-17-2013, 09:07 PM
KerrBear KerrBear is offline
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It's not just fucking stupid, it's deeply unethical, which is the point I was trying to make in my last post.

You asked how you are creating an unethical situation. Let's step back and just look at what's happening.

"My bf doesn't voice up but I have on several occasions and my husband gets upset and circles around about how horrible he has it because I'm not spending enough weekends with him and how he feels he can't provide for me financially."

This is my translation of what you described above:

You're saying: "Your sexual/kinky actions towards this person are unwanted by them."
A person acting ethically would say: "Then I will stop immediately, that is never ok, especially when it comes to emotionally sensitive things like humiliation-play that can be hot as hell when they're consensual but can verge on, or even tip over into, emotionally damaging abuse when they're non-consensual."
Your husband is saying: "Too bad, my insecurities in this situation warrant this non-consensual activity."
You're then saying, not with words but by your actions in continuing to participate in this sexual dynamic: "I accept that."

No, I have never accepted this behavior. This happened one time and when it happened, I was pretty pissed off at him just because it happened, well before I found out how it made my bf mad. It made ME mad. So how am I "accepting it"? I didn't cum on him (okay, maybe i have but that's not what I'm trying to imply here), it was my husband that took this upon himself. I had no idea he was going to do it until it happened.I even tried to push him away but couldn't in time.

In theory, yes, your boyfriend should speak up. In reality, he's "used to being treated bad" (history of abuse?) and is also in a vulnerable, exploitable position (you say your husband couldn't and won't get your bf fired, maybe that's true, maybe your bf even intellectually believes that, but it would still be very valid and natural for him to feel fear over it... in this economy, losing your job can ruin your life and, in general, a manager can, in fact, get you fired), so saying "no" is naturally going to be hard and scary, maybe even impossible.

Someone has to put a stop to this. Your husband won't. Your boyfriend feels like he can't. It's up to you. How? Refuse to participate any more. No more group sex without an honest, open, three-person conversation(s) that lay out boundaries and agreements for safe, sane, consensual kink.

yes, I realize this comes down to me. That's why I'm here and have been here, laying it all out the best I can. Cause I'm trying to make it work. I have already came to the conclusion that group sex is no longer a good idea. My bf very clearly stated that to me this morning via text.

Since your bf seems to have a lot of trouble saying no within this relationship, I would strongly suggest that one of those agreements look like this: "These activities are on bf's 'gray' list [white = love it, I can be assumed to be ok with this unless I say no; gray = I'm semi-comfortable with this but it depends on circumstances, it's negotiable; black = never do this], and a clear, no-pressure 'yes, I would like this' must ALWAYS be obtained from bf before they occur."

I know I've kind of been flipping out about this. But it's clear that you love your bf, and I don't think you realize that you're playing with fire when it comes to his mind and his heart. Humiliation play is, for many, many people, a form of "edge play", which is to say that it comes very close to striking at things that could damage a person (other examples include breath restriction and consensual non-consent). You can't fool around with edge play, it's either done safely and consensually, or else you risk being in the heart-breaking position of discovering that you've badly messed up someone who means the world to you. Please be careful.
I'm not really all for the edge play anyway. Honestly, the boys brought that to the bedroom. It was initially the bf's idea. He bought me a collar and a leash but he has no real experience in it other than he's researched it some and practiced some stuff on himself. My husband and I are completely and totally green. I LOVE the collar on me and I like being submissive like that with my bf, but it's a whole different story when my husband wants to play too. . . Do you think this is all my fault?
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  #37  
Old 04-17-2013, 09:20 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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I'm not really all for the edge play anyway. Honestly, the boys brought that to the bedroom. It was initially the bf's idea. He bought me a collar and a leash but he has no real experience in it other than he's researched it some and practiced some stuff on himself. My husband and I are completely and totally green. I LOVE the collar on me and I like being submissive like that with my bf, but it's a whole different story when my husband wants to play too. . . Do you think this is all my fault?
No, sweetie, I really, really don't think it's all your fault. I know I've come off pretty harsh, but it's just from being scared for you guys. I get that you're new to this, screwing up is natural, and to be frank I have a much stronger no-tolerance policy than some people I know when it comes to consent violations. Other kinksters would likely have a different take on events. I don't think at all that you're a bad person, and I hear you when you say that you didn't realize that was going to happen and tried to stop it.

It's normal not to know where the lines are when you're trying something new. Hopefully this will be a learning experience for everyone... INCLUDING your husband. I really, really hope that he can see and understand the problems with his actions??? Dude, in case you're reading this -- even if you don't respect your wife's bf, have enough respect for yourself not to use your difficulties with poly (many of which I've said clearly I thought were valid!) as an excuse to justify behavior that could easily be called abuse or exploitation. Yes, he has a puppy-play fetish. Yes, that's a submissive fetish. NO BEING A SUBMISSIVE DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO THAT PERSON WHENEVER YOU WANT BECAUSE THEY'LL PROBABLY LIKE IT ANYWAY (THEY PROBABLY WON'T, AND THEIR DISCOMFORT OR PAIN IS NOT A FUCKING JOKE OR AN ACCEPTABLE FORM OF 'PAYBACK' FOR A PERCEIVED SLIGHT). Just, *sigh*, just in case that's what you're thinking.

I... may have some feelings on this issue. :/
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  #38  
Old 04-18-2013, 01:18 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I don't know how to make this better. My husband has expressed that he is not wanting me to leave my bf and even encouraged us to stay together when I was pissed off and decided it would be better if I just abandoned the whole thing. My husband realized that I would be terribly unhappy and, as he works with my bf, it would really not solve anything at all.

Are you still at that decision place? Or was that a "when I was pissed off" moment thought thing?

Because basically BF is not ending it despite the upsettting things to him

Husband is clearly upset with this and not getting a grip.

You want to keep both people in your life as lovers despite it going against the grain, and struggle with accepting that you are not enough.

Nope. You can want things on your end 100%, but that's still only 33% of the total energy required in a 3 people dynamic.

Even if BF is at 100% is his energy power toward this? The polyship is still at 66% -- and that's a D. Not passing grade.

It will be felt in your polymath as the crazy it is right now. I am sorry.

To me it sounds like your husband enjoys swinging more than polyshipping. Casual, recreational, no strings sex. Emotional involvement wigs him out.
You do seem to want emotional involvement. It's a mismatch here to sort out.

For the time being? Could lose the kink/group sex for sure ASAP. That's playing with fire with players who don't yet have those skills and adding layers of complicated to an already loaded situation.

If you are also still willing to break up with BF? Could do it. Then could get on board with solving your marriage problems.

If you cannot solve it ALL right now? Could at least think of how to lessen the load on your shoulders. No, it is not fun. But standing still doesn't help. Could make some "take action" decisions.

IF you need hard guidelines for behavior you do NOT want when you do that talk with your people? Maybe some ideas from here could help and the group could look it over one section at a time with breaks.

I'm not saying anyone is abusive or being abused, but some of this behavior IS on the list. Like the "acts like I can do something then gets mad when I do it" -- that's in section 3.

A checklist like that where you can just circle the things that DO apply here and ignore what does not might be faster. Rather than struggle with "staring at a blank paper" trying to write out what bugs you. Helps keep it more neutral if it is ID behavior done/not done rather than attacking persons. Keep it on the behaviors.

http://speakoutloud.net/wp-content/u...urphy-2010.pdf

Hang in there.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 04-18-2013 at 02:30 AM.
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  #39  
Old 04-18-2013, 02:07 AM
KerrBear KerrBear is offline
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Are you still at that decision place? Or was that a "pissed of moment" thought thing?

Because basically BF is not ending it despite the upsettting things to him

Husband is clearly upset with this and not getting a grip.

You want to keep both people in your life as lovers despite it going against the grain, and struggle with accepting that you are not enough.

Nope. You can want things on your end 100%, but that's still only 33% of the total energy required in a 3 people dynamic.

Even if BF is at 100% is his energy power toward this? The polyship is still at 66% -- and that's a D. Not passing grade.

It will be felt in your polymath as the crazy it is right now. I am sorry.

To me it sounds like your husband enjoys swinging more than polyshipping. Casual, recreational, no strings sex. Emotional involvement wigs him out.
You do seem to want emotional involvement. It's a mismatch here to sort out.

For the time being? Could lose the kink/group sex for sure ASAP. That's playing with fire with players who don't yet have those skills and adding layers of complicated to an already loaded situation.

If you are also still willing to break up with BF? Could do it. Then could get on board with solving your marriage problems.

If you cannot solve it ALL right now? Could at least think of how to lessen the load on your shoulders. No, it is not fun. But standing still doesn't help. Could make some "take action" decisions.

IF you need hard guidelines for behavior you do NOT want when you do that talk with your people? Maybe some ideas from here could help and the group could look it over one section at a time with breaks.

I'm not saying anyone is abusive or being abused, but some of this behavior IS on the list. Like the "acts like I can do something then gets mad when I do it" -- that's in section 3.

A checklist like that where you can just circle the things that DO apply here and ignore what does not might be faster. Rather than struggle with "staring at a blank paper" trying to write out what bugs you. Helps keep it more neutral if it is ID behavior done/not done rather than attacking persons. Keep it on the behaviors.

http://speakoutloud.net/wp-content/u...urphy-2010.pdf

Hang in there.

Galagirl
Thank you for the guidelines. I agree that the 3-way kink should cease for now. I would like to keep experimenting with my bf, just him and I as the issue doesn't seem to be there but when my husband is involved.

To throw another confusing wrench into this all. My husband brought over my bf today as a surprise. I honestly think he's okay with the poly thing but then sometimes he's not. I don't really know what polymath score we are right now. . .
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  #40  
Old 04-18-2013, 02:34 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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My husband brought over my bf today as a surprise.
I'd be leery. That might be nice but no cigar.

Kinda like bringing "making up roses or candy" to gloss over for past misconduct. But not really addressing the root of explosion so FUTURE misconduct does not occur. Does he state the intent for behavior to change at all? Or is this a gesture of "sweep under rug" now?

I think all could shoot for clarity of expectations and accountability here.

Could go for your serious talk thing -- go over check list. Print 3 of them. One for each player and everyone highlight things that player could improve and scribble in anything not already on the checklist thing for behaviors.

Get guidelines mapped out for the personal standard all players are going to adhere to in this polyship so ALL players can be held accountable.

Make and meet the standards bar for code of conduct in this polyship. Co-create your flag, then fly it and honor thy colors. YKWIM? Rather than going all over the map.

THEN break out the roses and candy.

Hang in there.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 04-18-2013 at 02:41 AM.
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