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  #21  
Old 04-09-2013, 06:35 PM
Nox Nox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
That's my point and why we use Envy instead of Jealousy. Jealousy has already gotten a bad rap and given negative connotations. Envy of Ted is more along the lines of "Wish I was making out with Susie" or even "Wish I had someone to make out with."

Jealousy is more the type of "Ugh, why are they making out? S/he should be making out with me!"
Right. If I like Ted. If I don't like Ted, it's jealousy. But I still want Susie to be happy.

As a personal note, when R, G, and J (T's other interests) are treating her well, I'm envious (though not enough to overcome my joy for her). When they are not, and she still spends time with them, I'm jealous.
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  #22  
Old 04-09-2013, 07:24 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
That is where the language gets in the way. I dont' know about others, but we have tried to realize there is a difference between jealous and envy. I can be envious of someone else's good fortune without wanting to take it from them. Jealousy typically seems, to us at least, to be that not only are you unhappy that they have something you don't, but you don't want them to have it.

Granted other people might think the opposite but we found it important to know the difference and so have gone with those definitions.

So we go with the idea that you can have compersion and still be envious. Jealousy though, seems to be able to push out any compersion you might feel.

I agree with this completely. I could have said this myself, but you got to it first.

I do not believe that if two emotions are opposites or complementary or yin and yang to each other that just because one is present the other must also be present but is being canceled out by an excess of its counterpart. I don't believe that. If someone can provide evidence of a study that proves it, like if they hooked EEG electrodes to your brain and had you walk around for three days pushing the "Event" button any time you felt a strong emotional response to something, i would definitely consider reevaluating my position on this topic.

However, in my own experience i find that when i am feeling jealous and talk myself out of it, that's just a form of self-administered cognitive therapy, and there is no compersion to be found on the other side.
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2013, 07:36 PM
Nox Nox is offline
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That seems way too simple for me. There's often more than two people and more than a single event.

For example, if my partner is with someone else, I'm taking 1) the time she's not with me, 2) the joy she's experiencing, 3) worry about her liking them better, 4) experiences I'm having while she's gone, 5) worry about them coming home safe, 6) joy/pain/indifference for the (in T's case, I'm happy for her primary, happy for J, varies with G, unhappy with R (he's a liar))

And that's just off the top of my head.

Sure if you could distill it down, maybe you're right, but these aren't simple interactions.
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2013, 09:31 PM
Manifestiny Manifestiny is offline
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
I want to explain that compersion is not something you can " achieve" or "accomplish". It's something you feel, not something you think.
Thank you BG. This is insightful. I only use this terminology because it is something that my wife says. Maybe not exactly in those terms...but when i encourage her to try and discuss anything that is evidently difficult...the reply is often: "I can't right now...but i'm working on it".
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2013, 09:35 PM
Manifestiny Manifestiny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
That is where the language gets in the way. I dont' know about others, but we have tried to realize there is a difference between jealous and envy. I can be envious of someone else's good fortune without wanting to take it from them. Jealousy typically seems, to us at least, to be that not only are you unhappy that they have something you don't, but you don't want them to have it.

Granted other people might think the opposite but we found it important to know the difference and so have gone with those definitions.

So we go with the idea that you can have compersion and still be envious. Jealousy though, seems to be able to push out any compersion you might feel.
Thank you Vixtoria. I think that these are sound definitions. I feel that it is critical to be able to establish the dynamics of these core concepts together as lovers. In my current position...i can't seem to do that with my wife. Although, my gf is open to discussing anything...and so these insights will be useful in helping her.
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  #26  
Old 04-09-2013, 10:10 PM
Manifestiny Manifestiny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
I am sure you are weary, worn out, and likely tired of dealing with all the ins and the outs.
Yes..i am worn out...completely.

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Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
Your wife needs help and support, but you cannot force her to get it. Is she on medicines to help with her depression?
She has always resisted meds...but told me 2 days ago that it was time that she tried. I am not sure if she has literally started with them.

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Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
That means confidence and self-esteem could be lacking. Does she work outside of the home? Does she have hobbies to keep her busy, or are your children her entire world?
She never used to. All she has ever wanted was to be a mother. Once i saw the separation anxiety developing...i began to encourage her all the time to seek hobbies...many were started, but nothing was ever followed through. Eventually she found work...which came about more of a necessity rather than her actively wanting to get a job (which is a whole other story in itself). Since starting work 18 months ago, she has really come to life...and it is evidently helping her. However, self esteem is still an issue.

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Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
During this eight month period, were you consistently talking and communicating about what adding a new person to your lives would mean for each of you? What was the consent actually for if it was not for developing a relationship? Is there anyway you can her what she was consenting, too? Was she banking on you not falling in love and just having sex with someone else?
We have been discussing our thoughts on polyamory since before we were actually together (9 years ago). Anytime i would bring up the reality that i was developing real feelings for my gf...my wife would generally say things like "that's awesome...we'll work it out along the way...as long as we communicate properly"...but i feel that i have always been clear that my intention is to develop a tribe and integrate others into our life. Admittedly, we didn't have discussions about setting any other physical boundaries...other than my wife stated she didn't want my gf to have sex unless she was present. This boundary sounded alarm bells for me, because my gf is not exactly super comfortable with her sexuality (due to past abuse)...and although she is not completely closed to the concept of a triangle...at this stage, she is not ready to step into that. I have discussed with my wife the reality that this has made her feel shut out of the triad...however my gf made huge efforts to support my wife emotionally (and i believe, with openness to possibilities) and i am now beginning to see that my wife just expected my gf to jump into bed with her too without considering the comfort levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
Has she ever said what she is jealous of? What is it that you need from your wife? How are you approaching her with these needs? Are you keeping your other relationship out of it when you mention what you need from her? Focus on you and her.
Not exactly. It seems to change. At one time, it will be because when i told her about my first kiss with my gf, i delivered it with such elation. Another time it will be because i began seeing my gf alone (which was a product of circumstances and not a deliberate attempt to have an affair). I try to approach every need as i understand it...while still keeping centred in myself. I certainly make a conscious effort to try and keep discussion focused on the issue at hand and leave my gf out of it. Last night, i sent a message to express to my wife the things i am expressing to you guys. Essentially, it comes down to me communicating that her behaviour toward me is cold and i am not feeling very loved. Her response was that she is "dealing with things the best she can" that her life is now "not as she thought it once was"...and that my feelings are not her priority at this time. I then asked what this means for our marriage...and suggested that perhaps we are learning that the love is really there...but that maybe the fact that we are married is getting in the way because it creates these ideals and expectations (that i have been stating for some time i am happy to rework by renewing our vows). She told me to "stop it"...and that she "didn't want to have that conversation".

Quote:
Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
I cannot put a time limit on it for you. If her doctors are not helping, then perhaps she needs a new one who is equipped to deal with the issues and to help her. Have you attended any of the counselling appointments with her to hear what she says? Has the therapist asked that you join her?
She has changed doctors several times. We have done some counselling together. Her therapist has not asked me to join.
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  #27  
Old 04-15-2013, 06:22 AM
Manifestiny Manifestiny is offline
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To keep you informed...my wife gave me my grandmothers ring back that had been her engagement ring. When i asked her if this means that she wants a divorce...her reply was "well, what do you want?".

These, and many other similar actions, indicate that she really doesn't know what she wants. She has much healing to do within herself. There has always been dramas in our relationship...but my commitment to my marriage has always motivated me to work through anything. It seems as though she no longer wants to try...but it certainly could just be a phase.

The most important thing i have learned through all of this experience is that one's own truth is the single greatest guide. Know yourself...and your path will be illuminated before you.
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2013, 11:49 AM
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FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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I rarely say this, but maybe you just need to get the divorce and be done. Yes, it will hurt, but in time, you will get better and be stronger. Clearly you are not happy with your wife and tired of dealing with the dramatics and what not. The first venture in full blown polyamoury was not a smooth journey. Let it be a lesson. Take some time to heal and focus on being friendly with her and being a good parent to your children. Sometimes you have to know when to let go. Your wife has to figure out what she wants. You both sound miserable, so I am not sure why either of you would want to stay. There is a compatibility issue. She desires monogamy, and you are poly. Either way, good luck and I wish you well. Sending hugs your way.

Ry

Last edited by FullofLove1052; 04-15-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2013, 04:57 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I'm sorry you are going through this.

But hon, she's giving you back the ring. It's basically get off the fence time. How long do you keep on trying it before acknowledging "This does not work like this?"

She's already asked YOU what you want. You don't state what your answer was?

Quote:
These, and many other similar actions, indicate that she really doesn't know what she wants.
I'm going to disagree. Her actions show she does not want to be in polyship like this. Why? Maybe she/you doesn't have all the skills to polyship well yet or you guys did not talk enough in preparation for the realities and bumps in the road or have realistic expectations. Maybe all the above? I'm not sure. I could be wrong. But whichever way it is the same result right now -- miserable. Why keep dragging it out?

Your GF is being generous but wondering about "games" here.

You are the hinge. Make the call, dude. Wife is depressed and detaching -- keeping her in depressing situation is not aiding her wellness. GF wonders about games. Not kind to GF.

All these players are not compatible here in this polyship at this time. Take initiative. Being together in a polyship with all 3 is just not gonna fly. So... what is it gonna be instead?

Could choose to end the polyship and choose...
  • Be with your wife. Set GF free. Work on the marriage stuff that is weak and heal.
  • Be with your GF. Set wife free.
  • Be with neither of them. Set BOTH free. Be alone and grieve your losses.
  • Choose nothing. Let one of the other two end it from frustration/resentment/upset and time increases tensions. (I do not suggest this. Just drags on.)

Make the call. Not a FUN all to make, but this is not healthy for anyone like this.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 04-15-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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  #30  
Old 04-15-2013, 09:34 PM
Manifestiny Manifestiny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
I rarely say this, but maybe you just need to get the divorce and be done. Yes, it will hurt, but in time, you will get better and be stronger. Clearly you are not happy with your wife and tired of dealing with the dramatics and what not. The first venture in full blown polyamoury was not a smooth journey. Let it be a lesson. Take some time to heal and focus on being friendly with her and being a good parent to your children. Sometimes you have to know when to let go. Your wife has to figure out what she wants. You both sound miserable, so I am not sure why either of you would want to stay. There is a compatibility issue. She desires monogamy, and you are poly. Either way, good luck and I wish you well. Sending hugs your way.
Thank you Ry. I appreciate your reflection so much. I wish i had that sort of truth around me more! Yes, lessons. What would life be without them. I know we can be better parents...and better people...apart. I am coming to terms with that. I will be ok...and in the long run will be healthier and happier! And i only want the same for my wife. And my gf. And all the beings in the world.
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