Poly flip...marriage in trouble!

[Manifestiny]

Thank you for your support Vixtoria.

Originally Posted by Vixtoria

Okay I gave this advice to someone else recently. Depression, anxiety, diassociative Disorder, all of those are problems. Admittedly. They CAN have an external source. For example, I was told that my brain chemistry was changed as a child because I was in an unsafe environment emotionally. However, that doesn't mean that now, as an adult, any time I get depressed or things get really hard for me it's someone else's fault.

I hear you. I have a background in mental health...and i have been well aware of depressive symptoms that my wife has displayed throughout our entire relationship. I suspect it has been seeded well before i came along...but it has become more noticeable since our children became little people, and post-partum blues & separation anxiety became activated. I have this feeling deep down that my poly has become, more than anything, a reason for her to stay depressed.

Originally Posted by Vixtoria

No, it's not a reason to forfeit your happiness. Can you support and help her? Sure, if she lets you. If she's willing to work with you. When things get really hard, I'm just not able to function, my instinct is to cocoon. To just hide and be quiet and pull away.

I have been doing everything i can to support her for several years. I am now in a position where i feel that i have tried to support her so much that i have actually forfeited my happiness..and now resentment is starting to build. But at the end of the day...she cannot...or perhaps will not...tell me what she needs. So yes, she does hide herself away...which gives me nothing to work with.

I have certainly tried modifying my language to ensure that she knows that i am here for her. It has gone on for months. As i stated in my original post...how do i know when enough is enough? Do i have to break down? Or get super close to that point? Because i think i'm getting close.

Thank you!

[Vixtoria]

I wish I had an answer to that question, when is enough enough. To be honest, it's one that DH and I have voiced many times. While we have been able to work through things and get to a better place, we often look back and think that there were times when we shouldn't have. When for our own health we should have separated at the very least. It's a hard question.

The only think I can say for sure is don't let it build to where it's resentment for you and a surprise to her. Let her know that you are trying to be supportive but in the end, other people can not make you healthy or happy. You have to decide to do that for yourself, take the steps you need to. That you want to help her and are willing to, but you simply can not hold on forever, and neither can she.

She needs to decide to get the help. I had a therapist once tell me that "We do what we can to function even if it's not healthy, until we find some way healthier." I've found the problems come when people decide to not find a healthier way. It's hard, I don't think other people can understand it. It's like every day wading through water while everyone else is walking on land. It's feeling and seeing everything through a fog that for some reason surrounds only your brain. It's biking at a resistance at least three levels stronger than everyone else. So yes, some days you just want to stop, you want to give up and you want to just sink and let yourself go because it's too much work. No matter how great a support system, what drug cocktail you are on, some days it's not enough. So yeah she'll have bad days, but it's up to HER to decide to do the work and take advantage of the support system she has. Remind her of that. As calmly and nicely as you can. Because as much as people who love her are willing to take that burden and do that work for her, they can't. She has to.

Let her know, I hate to say it but give it a time frame. Tell her that she has to show she wants the help and to work with you. You can hold on if you see that there's hope but if there isn't, if there's no movement, it's not fair to either of you.

[Manifestiny]

Huge gratitude for your thoughtful response FullofLove1052.

Originally Posted by FullofLove1052

Asking your girlfriend or letting her try to help may be a bad idea. She could very well be a trigger if your wife has abandonment issues or something that stems from childhood.

Yes, we have worked that out now. It has got to the point where my wife has totally offended my gf...and now it will take much work if we hope to build toward balance. After my wife deactivated the on hold request...we began discussing the possibility of us all having a group discussion to establish some boundaries. As a prelude...it was agreed that my wife and gf should re-establish their dyadic connection first...which included my gf being honest about how my wife's behaviour actually made her feel. Sufficed to say that didn't go down well...and my wife took it as an attack...and decided to completely pull the pin on any potential for group boundary setting.

Originally Posted by FullofLove1052

It seems like she was trying to work with you by acknowledging that she was wrong in asking you to put your relationship on hold.

I humbly acknowledge that this was the case at the time. Of course, just because she has said that it was wrong...doesn't mean she can automatically be comfortable with it...which i also acknowledge.

Originally Posted by FullofLove1052

Sometimes you have to try things to say without a doubt that it is just not for you. That was the case with my husband. He tried poly, and he soon realised that it was the absolute wrong path for him. Your wife may very well have done the same thing. That is her right.

I totally agree!

Originally Posted by FullofLove1052

I cannot say that she is experiencing jealousy. Your wife holds the key to the questions you seek. Is she displaying jealous tendencies?

She has told me explicitly that she experiences jealousy. I can only hope that if she loves me the way she says...that she is working on compersion...but i am not seeing any signs of it.

Originally Posted by FullofLove1052

What was going on around the time that she suddenly changed? Were there signs there and you just missed them? Did she talk to mono minded friends or family and they convinced her that something was wrong with living that way? She has been depressed for 7 years, and that was missed, so that makes me wonder what else was missed?

She has always been very dramatic. She has often said things and then reneged on them. When i ask her, she says the real catalyst was when i came home and told her about my first kiss with my gf...my wife said that was the moment that she felt completely "left out" of the relationship. I can see in hindsight that because most of our other poly experiences have been shared sexual encounters...that this was different. However we had discussed exploring separate relationships many times (she tried to explore a few of her own that didn't eventuate)...and she had consented to every step along the way up until that point. And it wasn't as if it was overnight...i had been developing the relationship with my gf for around 8 months. The reality is that in that time...i discovered that i truly love my gf...and when that was declared to my wife...she freaked out...and then did a 180 on everything. I did what my wife asked and put my relationship with my gf on hold. It hurt my heart...a lot. The whole exercise was actually really traumatic for us all.

[Manifestiny]

Originally Posted by Vixtoria

Let her know, I hate to say it but give it a time frame. Tell her that she has to show she wants the help and to work with you. You can hold on if you see that there's hope but if there isn't, if there's no movement, it's not fair to either of you.

I guess that's what i'm going through. I don't feel much hope anymore...not when i'm being shut out like i am. And, bottom line...it is really affecting me. So how long do i wait? Until i crack and ask for a divorce? Or do i get to that point and then wait another couple of weeks? Or months? Or is it simply until i don't think i can take it anymore?

<3

[BoringGuy]

I am on the ipod so i'm not quoting.

You said your wife was "working on compersion" or something like that. I want to explain that compersion is not something you can " achieve" or "accomplish". It's something you feel, not something you think. Being intellectually aware that your partner is happy with someone else and being ok with that is not the same as "having compersion". The feeling of compersion (compersion compersion compersion compersion compersion there it doesn't sound like a word anymore) is something that hits you out of nowhere and does not require rational thought or a process of convincing onself that it is the right thing to feel. I've never heard of anyone "accomplishing" or "achieving" jealousy, or deciding to intellectually be jealous. In fact, people are always talking about jealousy as something you can't avoid feeling, but you can choose how to deal with that feeling. They are actually the same feeling, but jealousy is the unpleasant side of the feeling and compersion is the pleasant side. Bad cop / good cop.

Compersion is also not the same thing as being turned on by hearing or watching your partner have sex with someone else. That's voyeurism and has nothing to do with whether or not a person is poly or poly-friendly.

Just wanted to put that out there. I sure hope i don't get yelled at or berated for thinking i'm right about this.

[Nox]

BG, I think you're right, but there are barriers to fully experiencing compersion too. You can both feel joy at your partners good fortune while being jealous that it's not with you. The trick is overcoming the latter so you're only left with the good feelings.

[Vixtoria]

That is where the language gets in the way. I dont' know about others, but we have tried to realize there is a difference between jealous and envy. I can be envious of someone else's good fortune without wanting to take it from them. Jealousy typically seems, to us at least, to be that not only are you unhappy that they have something you don't, but you don't want them to have it.

Granted other people might think the opposite but we found it important to know the difference and so have gone with those definitions.

So we go with the idea that you can have compersion and still be envious. Jealousy though, seems to be able to push out any compersion you might feel.

[FullofLove1052]

I am sure you are weary, worn out, and likely tired of dealing with all the ins and the outs. At some point you loved your wife. You loved her enough during the dating stage to propose to her. You loved her enough during the engagement stage to actually marry her. If she has had issues through all those phases, then you must have loved her enough to not let that deter you. You are weathering a storm right now, and you need all the support you can get, too. Are you seeking outside support in the form of counselling yourself? Either that or a support group? Do you have a friend or relative you can confide in? I do not mean your girlfriend either. The thing you do not want is your marital drama to start overshadowing and clouding the happiness in your relationship, too. Then, you really will feel resentment.

Your wife needs help and support, but you cannot force her to get it. Is she on medicines to help with her depression? You can try to offer support in other ways. You might have to do things like court her again and make her feel special to let her know that you are there and actually interested in what is going on with her. You mentioned that she has separation anxiety regarding your children getting older and not being so dependent on her. That separation is a killer. I know because I am experiencing the first bout of it, and the time has not even come, yet. In her mind, it is probably not just being left out of the relationship, it is not knowing what her role is or her purpose is anymore. That means confidence and self-esteem could be lacking. Does she work outside of the home? Does she have hobbies to keep her busy, or are your children her entire world? Before she was the mother to children who needed her much more and a husband who only loved her. Now, she has children who need her less and a husband who loves another woman and has another relationship. Sprinkle years worth of depression, a shaky marriage, a husband who is clearly tired, and it is the makings of a train wreck.

During this eight month period, were you consistently talking and communicating about what adding a new person to your lives would mean for each of you? What was the consent actually for if it was not for developing a relationship? Is there anyway you can her what she was consenting, too? Was she banking on you not falling in love and just having sex with someone else? Her failed attempts could be indicative of the fact that she was not really into looking for love. If she flipped over you telling her that you were in love with her, that tells me that she never fathomed it would go beyond anything the physical. Sex is different. I can go have random, drunken sex with somebody who means nothing and walk away, but when I open my heart to someone else, that is different. That person will be part of my life, part of my husband's life, part of my children's lives, and a part of my world. The approach and the conversations to that would be different.

Has she ever said what she is jealous of? What is it that you need from your wife? How are you approaching her with these needs? Are you keeping your other relationship out of it when you mention what you need from her? Focus on you and her. "I need to feel loved, and when you shut me out, I feel distant and like you are not interested in what I have to say." "I need to know that you are committed to saving our marriage and that you actually care because I cannot care enough for the both of us." "I need to know what you need from me, and I am not mind reader, so I have no starting point. Would you be willing to help me and let me be there for you like you have done for me in that past?" Keep everything else out of it. Has she ever said what she needs from you to be comfortable and at least content? (Outside of ending the relationship and being mono.) I know that is hard with depression, but even people with depression have high days and low days.

I cannot put a time limit on it for you. If her doctors are not helping, then perhaps she needs a new one who is equipped to deal with the issues and to help her. Have you attended any of the counselling appointments with her to hear what she says? Has the therapist asked that you join her?

[Nox]

Originally Posted by Vixtoria

That is where the language gets in the way. I dont' know about others, but we have tried to realize there is a difference between jealous and envy. I can be envious of someone else's good fortune without wanting to take it from them. Jealousy typically seems, to us at least, to be that not only are you unhappy that they have something you don't, but you don't want them to have it.

Granted other people might think the opposite but we found it important to know the difference and so have gone with those definitions.

So we go with the idea that you can have compersion and still be envious. Jealousy though, seems to be able to push out any compersion you might feel.

Not necessarily. Say I'm in a relationship with Susie. She's making out with Ted.

I can be happy for Susie, but jealous of Ted. I don't want Ted to have Susie.

But I do agree with what you're saying just of the partner and language.

[Vixtoria]

Originally Posted by evad

Not necessarily. Say I'm in a relationship with Susie. She's making out with Ted.

I can be happy for Susie, but jealous of Ted. I don't want Ted to have Susie.

But I do agree with what you're saying just of the partner and language.

That's my point and why we use Envy instead of Jealousy. Jealousy has already gotten a bad rap and given negative connotations. Envy of Ted is more along the lines of "Wish I was making out with Susie" or even "Wish I had someone to make out with."

Jealousy is more the type of "Ugh, why are they making out? S/he should be making out with me!"