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  #11  
Old 04-07-2013, 04:29 AM
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StudentofLife StudentofLife is offline
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Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post

Only you and those involved with you will know for sure what style of compromise best suits your relationships, but in general, it seems like the people have much better success with being hyper-respectful, and then humble when asking for any ground on anything that is important to you in regards to boundaries of your relationships. Many people will disagree with that statement, however I have found that showing hyper-respect often works like an eraser and sometimes magically erases all problems.
Dirtclustit,

I've never heard anyone use the term hyper-respectful before, and I'm curious. Can you maybe explain how it would be done in a hypothetical conversation, or something? I don't want to hijack the thread, maybe it should be a new thread?
My partner and I have very different levels of "being out" about our same-sex relationship, and as we move closer to poly relationships, I feel sure the topic will come up again. This concept seems like it may have some real value. Thanks!
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  #12  
Old 04-07-2013, 01:08 PM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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This is one of those things I think is being OVER thought. I am out. I pretty much just am. However, I understand the whole, 'time and place' kind of thing. DH and I met in catholic school, we saw a wonderful teacher black balled and dismissed because she had the AUDACITY to have an interracial child. We all KNEW she married a black man but he was never allowed on school property or to pick her up and she couldn't show pictures of him on her desk. Didn't matter that he was a police officer (might have been detective) and they were in a healthy and happy marriage. It had to be ignored and never spoken of. Having a mixed child was impossible to ignore so she was gone. Period.

Though the two of us had gone to this school for years, for him most of his school career, we were unable to get married by any of the churches there for the same reason. It happens.

Now, while I am out, I am also respectful of the fact that DH works in a rather security sensitive job. So really, not best to be seen macking on a boyfriend around his co workers. Honestly, it's not this stifling suffocating issue! I just respect that it could do more harm than good for his job and his CAREER to be seen as a queer poly gal by his work. He's a rather private person anyway and doesn't see why coworkers should know anything of his personal life. So fine. I don't have to be on my guard every minute or anything like that.

I just don't see why it's such a huge deal. I like being naked, but I still put on at least a robe when there's a knock at my door! Not a massive inconvenience, just a little thoughtful.
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  #13  
Old 04-07-2013, 02:02 PM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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WaxyZ - I thought that I would chime in as I have similar fears as your wife about public behavior and job/career safety and we have had to make decisions/compromises around this (still in progress).

Our situation: I am married and live with my husband (MrS) and my boyfriend (Dude) (who was/is my husband's best friend). We are out to our friends but not publicly - although we are transitioning to be out "socially" i.e. to "friends of friends"/social acquaintances.

For me the privacy issues breaks down to several parts:

1.) How Dude an I interact with each other when we are all out.

As it stands now - no PDA when we are in public in either the town where we live or the town where I work. PDA ok in public otherwise - such as when we go into the nearest city for the evening (unless I happen to recognize someone that "shouldn't" see). PDA ok when we are socializing with our friends at someone's house, even if there are "outsiders" present (this is the part that is still "in progress" - I'm jumpy about this).

Now since the "no PDA where it could threaten my career" is MY rule and PDA with Dude would involve me participating this part is easier to resolve (this rule chafes with Dude a bit - but he understands where I am coming from).

2.) What happens when Dude starts dating others?

Obviously they can do whatever they want in public.

So, obviously, when he is meeting/starting to date someone they have to know that he is in a relationship with someone else and she (me) is fine with him dating others (i.e. he is not cheating). BUT the details - that his girlfriend (me) is married and knowing who I am and that having that be public knowledge would be damaging to my career? At what point do you trust a relative stranger with that information? If something happens and their dating relationship goes south I worry that this potentially hurt/angry person could use this information against him/me. (Yes, part of the answer is to not date crazy women ...but sometimes that is not something you can tell right off the bat.)

I think it is likely that he would be dating people from our circle of friends who already know - so this might be worry over nothing. If he meets/dates women from outside of this circle I think we will just have to take it on a case-by-case basis. (Basically I will have to be able to trust his judgement about trusting another person with my information which could be damaging to my career...at a time when he will likely be caught up in NRE and she will still be presenting her best "dating" self to him - ohhh, scary )

3.) What happens if MrS starts dating others?

It's a good thing that this is less likely because this has all of the "public PDA" issues from #1 (with the added complication of it being MY issue and not their issue - making a "rule" for someone else's relationship does NOT sit well with me...but if you date a married man maybe you might expect some baggage to be attached, no?) AND all of the "metamour information" issues of #2.

Best Case Scenario: Maybe he will only date married women who have their own public PDA/metamour information issues?

Oh well. Here's hoping my boys only date sane women who care enough about them to respect a request for discretion on my behalf.

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  #14  
Old 04-07-2013, 02:28 PM
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It's the one subject that I believe should be an "everybody on the same page" decision, that everyone must agree and anyone involved has the right to veto the decision of being out for any reason whatsoever.
This favors absolutely the person who doesn't want to be "out". While I have no interest in deciding for someone how much the world should know about them (I don't care, really), I thought it should be recognized that this approach does not respect the feelings of the person who *does* want to be out in the least.

If someone needs to live in secret then they need to keep *their* laundry private, not mine. Meaning, if I am open but don't want anyone to know then it is our relationship that needs to be a secret, not any of your other relationships.

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Yes, I know it sucks, but the world and societies of human beings are a very ugly, violent, blind with denial in regards to what is considered acceptable.
No way to get around this reality. We should remember, though that we have a choice as to how we want to confront this eventuality. We can cower from it, living in the attic in secret, or we can be who we are and let the world figure out for itself how it wants to deal with *us*. It's the same question homosexuals must struggle with as individuals. They can risk coming out, or risk living a lie.

Just so long as people remember that the path they choose is up to them and take a little personal responsibility for what they chose.

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Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
So I strongly believe that the view of any involved party on being out, should always be respected. But that is just me and won't work for everyone.
I agree that a persons right to privacy should not be infringed upon. I take it that's how you meant "respect" in this context. Outing someone for their own personal proclivities would be in poor taste to the extreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
Only you and those involved with you will know for sure what style of compromise best suits your relationships, but in general, it seems like the people have much better success with being hyper-respectful, and then humble when asking for any ground on anything that is important to you in regards to boundaries of your relationships. Many people will disagree with that statement,.
For relationships in which boundaries are asked for, I suppose the first part of this statement would work. I find the idea of asking someone to not "out" me as whatever to be counter intuitive. If I have every reason to believe that my life or livelyhood will be harmed if I am out then I'm not *asking* anything... I'm saying I won't be out and you can agree with that or split.

Now, I'm not meaning that I shouldn't show regard or consideration for others opinions (which I take it is the definition of respect you are using here). And I'm certainly not implying that I shouldn't be courteous and kind. We should always seek to find common ground with loved ones, though I am highly skeptical of the idea of compromise when it comes to my personal life. Compromise is what happens in a business or legal engagement, rarely should it happen among loved ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
however I have found that showing hyper-respect often works like an eraser and sometimes magically erases all problems
Is respect really the word you are intending to use here? It sounds like you are talking about courtesy and politeness. Sorry to get into a semantic discussion here but respect is one of those words that has quite a few uses and definitions. Courtesy is very precise, and it sounds more like what you are using it for.

Can you explain what you mean?
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Last edited by Marcus; 04-07-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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  #15  
Old 04-07-2013, 07:38 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default I admire people who hide nothing

they are the reason society doesn't burn witches, somebody has to continue on and stand their ground knowing that they are doing nothing wrong, and the people who refused to give up wrongful, unlawful control are Heroes.

Respect is the term I meant to use, but exactly the type of respect I meant is better illustrated in Waxy's working out boundaries with the spouse.

Your right, nobody should be forced to lie about their life, when I used the word respect I meant it within the context that the involved parties goal is to maintain their relationships. I do agree with you that it is also a responsible and respectful to tell a person that the relationship is not going to work out if they choose to remain closeted. The problem has nothing to do with poly people who live out nor is it with poly who live closeted, the problem is with public persecution.

When I called it hyper-respect, I was referring to negotiating boundaries with his spouse. I was referring to his question about now being the time to stand his ground. In specific terms, I was referring to the old adage of you catch more bees with honey. Most people are going to experience many overwhelming emotions as they figure out their life and how it works for them to live it without being bound by tradition and societies unrecognized hatred and violence to enforce traditional values as they won't allow anyone to enjoy life more than they are allowed to, but I don't want to get side-tracked.

Because allowing yourself and your spouse the freedom to experience love is such an emotionally confusing roller coaster, people are likely to have "blow outs" or "blow ups" here and there and all along the way til they find their poly path. Now I am speaking in the context of two people who began their relationship with each other monogamously and are discussing and experimenting. I should through in the disclaimor that this is just my view, but I feel the issues that arise from venturing beyond monogamy and eventually break up the relationship, those same issues that broke everything could have likely been non-issues if they had been dealt with differently. The thing about going from mono to poly is that it doesn't matter is his wife's fear are completely irrational, in fact I expect that most peoples fears are going to have some degree of being irrational because we are talking sharing the person you love. What I am saying is for couples who are trying to figure this all out, any time your partner brings up a concern, in this case displaying affection with others in public (regardless of the reason) any time they voice a complaint consider yourself lucky, and think twice about approaching the point of contention with a standing your ground point of view as that may not be experienced as nurturing your partners concerns

to be honest the number one killer of relationships (any relationship) is pretending something isn't bothering you if it is, so talking them out of their concern may actually be harming your relationship

but back on track with this post, rather than standing his ground, I would think he could get something closer to exactly what he wants if he approached it with hyper-respect, more along the lines of no questions asked, I will address your concern by completely eliminating the problem, maybe even a full nuther step back, as if to say, not only will I not kiss someone in public I am going to chill on dating for a week because You need to feel secure. If you at every bump in the road were treated in a manner like exponential back-off is used when collisions happen on computer networks, instead of breaking a relationship those issues often seem to a disappear.

granted, it doesn't always work, but when your concerns are met by your spouse and their lovers with hyper-respect, it goes a long way to reassure an emotionally distraught spouse that other parties do in fact care about them. It goes a long to way to show others that you genuinely do respect them and their relationship with your loved ones.

It only takes a perceived display of disrespect to derail a person's mind. It can mean the difference of a small detail like kissing in a dark dance club become a point of contention that ends the relationship a year down the road or two months from he could not only be kissing women in clubs but he could actually get ticketed by law enforcement for public indecency and his wife would belly laugh.

I guess my point is, dealing with every concern with exponential back-off, or hyper-respect the first time any detail becomes a concern can effectively make it not a concern when dealt with appropriately. Because these concerns may be irrational and over emotional, it is best to make sure your loved ones feel loved, then they might respond favorably

of course after six weeks or six months or maybe even six years and hyper-respect just isn't working, then of course it's a whole different ball game

but right out of the gate, the first or second time a specific appears as a point of contention, I am a firm believer in hyper-respect

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 04-07-2013 at 07:51 PM. Reason: typo
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  #16  
Old 04-07-2013, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
but back on track with this post, rather than standing his ground, I would think he could get something closer to exactly what he wants if he approached it with hyper-respect, more along the lines of no questions asked, I will address your concern by completely eliminating the problem, maybe even a full nuther step back, as if to say, not only will I not kiss someone in public I am going to chill on dating for a week because You need to feel secure.
That's the clarification I was hunting for. "Respect" in this regard is "deference" or "humble submission".

I disagree fundamentally and absolutely.

This is even worse than the situation of compromise. At least in compromise everyone gets a shit deal (just an equal amount of shit for everyone). In this approach it is just subjugation to anothers will... gross.
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  #17  
Old 04-08-2013, 01:31 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default I don't mean roll over indefinitely

But it definitely helps dealings with the fears that initially crop up. Again I am speaking in the context of spouses who desire to transition into some flavor of non-monogamy with a goal of not splitting up. People tend to get a little weird, and it can help some people overcome those fears.

From your posts, I get the feeling your level of freedom to love in your relationships, is complete and total, and there is definitely something to be said about those who can maintain healthy relationships while being completely free, I can respect that, and see how my suggestion would not work at all for you in your situation. For spouses trying to make it into the pool, so to speak and find themselves in a make it or break it type situation, what I suggested can help people stay together.

But nothing can keep people together who are not compatible, and it does end up making everyone miserable when people try to stay together when they should not. My suggestions are geared more towards keeping people together that are compatible, but might not understand or be able to find a way to make it work for them

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 04-08-2013 at 01:35 AM. Reason: typo
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