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  #41  
Old 03-28-2013, 07:43 AM
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Somegeezer Somegeezer is offline
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Ach - don't let anybody tell you that philosophy has no practical use. It is enormously useful for all manner of things. I use the things I learned all the time in my work. I've found philosophy useful in dog training, in doing science research and in being able to stand my ground with medical professionals.

Very useful and practical subject in my opinion.
Very useful for thinking, but not practical, hands on stuff. It is the dog training itself or the science research itself that is the practical side of it.

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I didn't get into it beforehand. When I started working in IT, I had used computers for typing up essays with and that was it. I didn't even use the internet or e-mail back then.

But - one of the things I spent time on in my philosophy degree was the philosophy of language. For years and years before computers were around philosophers have looked at language. One of the ways they used to think about meaning was to consider what a language might be like if it operated fully on logical statements and had no ambiguity of meaning.

Philosophers called these things formal languages - and that's exactly what computer programming languages are.
Ever heard of Lojban? It's actually one thing I'm working on at the moment in learning. Again, no practical use to it [yet], but a great thing to think about.

.i mi lo zanfri ku lo tavla ku logji bangu
[I enjoy[some] talking[some] logical language.]
Very basic and not well-thought-out Lojban, but the great thing about it, being that it still makes perfect sense, even if it does look ugly in this example. If I knew the language a little better, I could probably cut down the sentence to two thirds the length, with much more pretty wording and grammar. =P

EDIT: I believe ".i mi lo nelci ku tavla bau la lojban." would be a little more pretty. =]
[I like talking in the language of Lojban.]

But it it thought that Lojban would make for a fantastic language to put into computing, because of its complete lack of ambiguity.

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I went into my job interview and talked about having learned formal logic and spent time studying formal languages.

I passed the aptitude test and interviewed fairly well and they took me into the graduate training program.

The company I worked for then wanted their IT staff to have good social skills and be able to talk to customers. They believed that it was easier to teach programming than social skills so there is a bunch of us with no IT background at all working away as systems analysts and programmers.
That's a pretty cool way to have got into it. I think I'd enjoy computing, myself. If, or once, I get around to learning how to do useful things with a computer language, I may have to see about maybe careers in using them.
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  #42  
Old 03-28-2013, 10:43 AM
wildflowers wildflowers is offline
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I thought this was an interesting article (also regarding an invented language).
Given that you're working with another such language, it may not have new ideas for you (and your language seems less complicated), but it was a new area for me. In a way, it struck me as language as self analysis: you have to truly know what you're trying to say very precisely before you can say anything.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...24fa_fact_foer
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  #43  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:15 PM
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I thought this was an interesting article (also regarding an invented language).
Given that you're working with another such language, it may not have new ideas for you (and your language seems less complicated), but it was a new area for me. In a way, it struck me as language as self analysis: you have to truly know what you're trying to say very precisely before you can say anything.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...24fa_fact_foer
Definitely interesting, thanks.

I barely know Lojban myself. I only started learning it a small time ago. But it definitely seems that all things this Ithkuil language tries for, Lojban has done it.

I do like the script of Ithkuil though. It looks really cool. Lojban is typically written in our regular Latin script here, but also goes quite well with Tengwar [Lord Of The Rings], and Hebrew.

and where both are made to be logical languages, I really love that Lojban is truly logical, to the point that computers are able to parse it perfectly. The syntax is really the easy part of it. It's just working up a dictionary knowledge of the brivla [words]. Thankfully, the gismu [root words] are only 1300ish in number. So it is possible, with time, to have a working knowledge of them all. With them, you create most other words you may need, or just string them together to get the meaning across.

I've never been one for languages before now. I have an average understanding of English itself. I always struggled finding any use in languages like French, back in high school. and even computer languages were never presented to me at a time when I would have learnt them with passion. But with the new self, I've been finding myself in new interests, like Lojban, and eventually, Python.

It seems that with every new thing you learn, the more your mind changes the way it thinks. and with something like a logical language, you find yourself thinking in much more logical ways, and even applying more logic to your native language [being English for me, of course]. I've actually noticed in just the past year or so, how much of a change it's been for my mind. and I like it.
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  #44  
Old 03-29-2013, 09:44 AM
InfinitePossibility InfinitePossibility is offline
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Very useful for thinking, but not practical, hands on stuff. It is the dog training itself or the science research itself that is the practical side of it.
It seems to me that there is a common belief in our society that thinking about something and doing something are totally separate things. (I'm suspecting that Descartes possibly started this with his incredibly powerful - and religiously motivated - division of the world into minds and bodies).

Anyway - I don't think that they are. Everything that a person may do - teach, program computers, ski, drive, play a musical instrument, garden - needs thought and planning on an ongoing basis. At work, we spend over 50% of our time in planning and analysis - the actual programming and testing part of our job isn't the bulk of it.

Philosophy is of immense practical help, in my opinion, because it helps people be better at the planning and thinking and problem solving parts of doing hands on stuff.

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Ever heard of Lojban? It's actually one thing I'm working on at the moment in learning. Again, no practical use to it [yet], but a great thing to think about.
I hadn't heard of it. It looks fascinating. I agree with you - if you enjoy learning stuff like that, you'd probably have loads of fun with loads of IT stuff.

Do Lojban speakers have conventions and get togethers? One of my friends has been speaking Esperanto for years. He has friends all over the world that he's met at the get togethers he goes to. His daughter is 4 and speaks Esperanto and English which is very cute.


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  #45  
Old 03-29-2013, 04:30 PM
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It seems to me that there is a common belief in our society that thinking about something and doing something are totally separate things. (I'm suspecting that Descartes possibly started this with his incredibly powerful - and religiously motivated - division of the world into minds and bodies).

Anyway - I don't think that they are. Everything that a person may do - teach, program computers, ski, drive, play a musical instrument, garden - needs thought and planning on an ongoing basis. At work, we spend over 50% of our time in planning and analysis - the actual programming and testing part of our job isn't the bulk of it.

Philosophy is of immense practical help, in my opinion, because it helps people be better at the planning and thinking and problem solving parts of doing hands on stuff.
I assume that perhaps you may be from the US or Canada maybe, and that they don't have the same definition of practical? Or perhaps it's just not one you've come across. But as well as the meaning of practical to mean something feasable; is useful... It also has the meaning of hands-on. Something you indeed use your body for. Actually manipulating the world around you. In science specifically, is where we most often see it. As -practicals- are what we call the hands-on part of an experiment. Sure, you have all the planning beforehand, but the practical is the throwing chemicals at each other until they explode. and this was the definition of the word I was going by. Using the mind is VERY useful. But not hands-on. More clear?


Quote:
I hadn't heard of it. It looks fascinating. I agree with you - if you enjoy learning stuff like that, you'd probably have loads of fun with loads of IT stuff.

Do Lojban speakers have conventions and get togethers? One of my friends has been speaking Esperanto for years. He has friends all over the world that he's met at the get togethers he goes to. His daughter is 4 and speaks Esperanto and English which is very cute.


IP
I do very much enjoy computers. Had one in front of me since I was 5 years old. The computer I'm using now was the first one I ever built myself, for the specific purpose of music production. Hasn't failed me yet. But would definitely be great for all kinds of other computation.

I'm not really a typical Lojban speaker. I know of nobody in the small group of people who actually learn it.
and it seems that in general, the language is on a decline, with not a whole lot of new people taking it on. Even those who were early adopters, have moved on to other things. But I find the language itself interesting enough, just to learn for my own benefit. Esperanto is cool as a constructed language, but I wasted something specifically logical. Whereas Esperanto is a fully-fledged language, with tonnes of people now using it as their native language.

Esperanto definitely seems like the more useful constructed language in a communication setting. I think sign language is another great one for anyone who wishes to learn a useful language. As a musician, I understand how much I'd be losing of myself if I lost my hearing. So it may be of use for me to learn sign language later on down the road, too. As a visual learner, I imagine I'd pick that up rather easily. I've always been attracted to Russian, as well. Cyrillic script is beautiful in its harshness. =P
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  #46  
Old 03-30-2013, 01:48 AM
wildflowers wildflowers is offline
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I almost mentioned sign language in response to your other post; now that you've brought it up yourself I have to.

I was struck by your comment about language changing how you think about things, because it reminded me of a book on sign language and deaf culture
(http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Voices-.../dp/0375704078) in which I'm pretty sure he said that one of the key reasons it was important to teach the deaf to sign was that without true access to a language it is much harder to think; you just don't have all the tools for it.

It was a pretty interesting book overall, though as I recall a bit dry at times. It was quite a while ago that I read it though.
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  #47  
Old 03-30-2013, 06:56 AM
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I almost mentioned sign language in response to your other post; now that you've brought it up yourself I have to.

I was struck by your comment about language changing how you think about things, because it reminded me of a book on sign language and deaf culture
(http://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Voices-.../dp/0375704078) in which I'm pretty sure he said that one of the key reasons it was important to teach the deaf to sign was that without true access to a language it is much harder to think; you just don't have all the tools for it.

It was a pretty interesting book overall, though as I recall a bit dry at times. It was quite a while ago that I read it though.
I don't know about difficult to think. But certainly different. I would imagine people who were born deaf would think in terms of images. and those born blind would think in terms of sound. Those of us who have had access to both, can be all across the range of the two.

and those aren't the only ways of thinking, of course. I just use them as easy examples. and although each side would have difficulty with the others, having never experienced them, they generally still manage to solve the same problems, but in different ways. People are great at adapting.

That's how sign language came about as it was. People adapted to be able to communicate, even though they knew no way, or were incapable of, speaking vocally.

Even though we may not have gone as far as inventing a language in our lives [although I remember creating an alphabet as a kid. =P], I'm sure we've adapted to suit our advantages, and push away our disadvantages.
That's basically how this thread of mine started. I wanted mould myself into something greater. It's a long journey, but definitely worth it.
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:15 AM
InfinitePossibility InfinitePossibility is offline
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I assume that perhaps you may be from the US or Canada maybe, and that they don't have the same definition of practical? Or perhaps it's just not one you've come across. But as well as the meaning of practical to mean something feasable; is useful... It also has the meaning of hands-on. Something you indeed use your body for. Actually manipulating the world around you. In science specifically, is where we most often see it. As -practicals- are what we call the hands-on part of an experiment. Sure, you have all the planning beforehand, but the practical is the throwing chemicals at each other until they explode. and this was the definition of the word I was going by. Using the mind is VERY useful. But not hands-on. More clear?
Lol - I'm from Scotland.

I agree with you - that is very much what is meant by practical. The bit where you do something. Write code, ski, build a bed, mix chemicals, gather data. The doing bit.

It's just something I find myself thinking about lots just now and questioning.

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Old 03-30-2013, 03:51 PM
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Lol - I'm from Scotland.

I agree with you - that is very much what is meant by practical. The bit where you do something. Write code, ski, build a bed, mix chemicals, gather data. The doing bit.

It's just something I find myself thinking about lots just now and questioning.

IP
I just assumed, because most people around here seem to be over that way. =]

One phrase I particularly enjoy is "Question everything."
and I certainly do. I'm never content that something -is-, and have to know -why-.

Also "Learn the rules, so that you can know how to break them."
This one I always see in terms of music. Where the rules can stop you moving forward, just as much as not understanding music at all.
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:56 PM
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Well the site seems to have gone through a bit of a hiccup recently. Something I'd love to get on to more a bit further down. First, though...

... As most reading will know, I've been going through a whole lot of self-change for a while now. Discovering a lot of who I am, and fixing the parts I don't like. and as a part of this whole starting fresh, and building it all back up, I decided to lop off my hair.

"But SG!" I hear you say "Why would you do that to those sexy locks!?" ;D

Well, extremely pleasant commenter [^_^], various reasons spurred it. But it was really a heat of the moment event. I'd been thinking about it for a while. Not really wanting to deep down. As my hair is as much a part of me, as the people I have in my life. I have an almost-religious connection with my hair. Not dissimilar to a sikh's practice of kesh.

It certainly felt sinful to myself to get rid of it all. But a great weight has also been lifted from my shoulders. Figuritively. Literally, it oddly didn't feel like a whole lot of weight. I expected it to be. The hair was 3 feet long. Half the size of my own height. It was at a point where it wasn't really growing a whole lot further. 8 years it took to get to that point, too.

But for those, like myself, who loved the mane, all is not lost. I may have cut it all off, but only for the point of growing it once again. This time, with a little more care. I'll be straying away from the masses of chemicals in shampoo, and using the more cleansing, water. =P Seems strange, but the things they put in shampoo, only causes the need for more shampoo. Much the same that a can of cola will only make you more thirsty.

It's just one of a number of things I'm constantly looking to change in myself. and one of the hardest choices I've made recently.


Now, on to a more serious matter. A matter of mods clambering into peoples' personal blogs here. Not unlike the one you are reading now. Though I've not had this problem myself, it seems that some are taking their power into their emotional sides.

The problems seem to be about focusing on non-poly topics... In personal -life- blogs. Now, as you can see in this post, and for quite a few posts before it, my own blog has been very far from the topic of poly.

I actually really enjoy talking with people on this blog. Allowing people to join in with discussion, and taking the topic to wherever it ends up being. My life does not revolve around poly itself. In fact, I've never even been in a poly relationship. Ever. and in fact, in the past half a year or more, not only have I not been poly, I've not even been in any kind of romantic relationship. and do you know what? I've been enjoying it!

Being on my own has been a great experience, and I'm hoping is carries on this way for a while, yet. I'm not looking for any relationship outside of friendship. So what? Does this make my blog irrelevant now?

Because from all you lovely people that do read, and especially comment here... I like to think that even these small interactions make some difference to the way you think. Or perhaps give you ideas. Or I've managed to give out some advice that makes some kind of positive difference in your life.

That is not irrelevant.

This all may not have to do with polyamory, but this is my personal space on this site. I choose what I talk about. I share -my- life with you, and allow you to join in with it. But at no point do I expect disrespect from any member here.

If your goal is to hurt anyone in a place where they should feel safe to share themselves, you, yourself, are giving polyamory a bad name.

To all those who put up with me, I appreciate you all, greatly. <3
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