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  #441  
Old 03-20-2013, 04:09 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Natja View Post
If a bloke is wont to be 'creeped' out,isn't it better that he knows beforehand (not that I have ever met this near mythical completely vanilla scared of kink gay man but let's just say he exists for arguments sake).
Oh, you must not live in the middle of Saskatchewan, Alberta, or Texas. I assure you, these people certainly do exist. You've not heard of gay bashing? You think it stops there??

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Than it being thrown at him (especially if Joe is pretty extreme) later on in the middle of intimacy?
There's a pretty big gap between "first date" and "middle of intimacy": the whole "getting to know someone" stage. You can disclose this kind of information anywhere in that period without expecting someone to feel betrayed or lied to.

If someone seriously feels betrayed that a potential partner didn't disclose their deepest and darkest secrets on the second date, then they need to pull their self-entitled head out of their ass. Some people are open books, but most people need a bit of time to build trust. Many have been burned before and are hesitant to risk that again.

No, it's not usually the risk of beatings and rape. I was obviously exaggerating for dramatic effect. But that doesn't mean Mr. First Date won't post about "this freak I met last night" all over Facebook, putting Joe's professional life at risk.

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I can't see any point in Joe keeping these things secret, I know plenty of gay men in the kink scene, I even know very secure in their sexuality straight males that will play with men in the scene.
Just because some people are out and open doesn't mean everyone can afford that privilege. The fact that you know about their sexuality just means they aren't in Joe's position.

Maybe instead of medical research, Joe is a school teacher, and even the suggestion that he might be into something kinky is enough to cost him his job. Teachers still get fired just for being gay. Sure, the administration makes up excuses to get around anti-discrimination laws... But do you really think it doesn't still happen? Do you honestly think that a Fundamentalist from the Bible Belt is going to let their child be educated by a gay-poly-kinky-freak?

You're in the scene, you go to fetish parties. You're out, your friends are out. That's awesome. But you need to realize that's a privilege, one that many people don't share. You know "plenty of gay men in the kink scene" because they're out; this whole conversation doesn't apply to them. But just because there's a handful of people who have a lifestyle that allows them to be out and proud doesn't mean there aren't 10x as many people scared for their jobs, if not lives, and forced to keep their secret safe.
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 03-20-2013 at 04:11 PM.
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  #442  
Old 03-20-2013, 06:04 PM
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Natja Natja is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Oh, you must not live in the middle of Saskatchewan, Alberta, or Texas. I assure you, these people certainly do exist. You've not heard of gay bashing? You think it stops there??
I was talking about the gay community, which I assume Joe is smart enough to be looking for gay partners, within the gay community.....of course gay bashing exists, but your argument doesn't actually make sense in the context.

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If someone seriously feels betrayed that a potential partner didn't disclose their deepest and darkest secrets on the second date
Let's relist those deepest darkest secrets shall we?

a) Man that has sex with men - I assumed this to be bisexual as regarding disclosing for dating this would only be an issue if he was looking (or open to) a female partner, as I wrote before, gay men would take that as a given.
Also not wanting children thing leans heavily towards (but not exclusively of course) towards Joe looking for a female partner.

Now bisexuality might be considered a deepest darkest secret (which is quite sad but there you go...) but as I wrote before, if the woman would take issue with that now, it will still be an issue later.

b) Poly

Ditto....unless, of course he is willing to live monogamously for this person, however, this is what the thread is specifically about and lots of good input has already been given.

c) Kinky

This depends greatly on how much Joe's kink contributes to his sex life, if he simply will never be happy with a totally vanilla life, wouldn't he be better off stating that?

d) Doesn't want children.

I doubt this would put any lives/jobs at risk by being open about that.

Remember also, we are talking of online dating profiles, this is what Lotusesandroses referenced in the example, not meeting at a bar, therefore under the full disclosure up front tactic, there should never be a situation where you have a date with a person who will slate you for being a freak and trust me, a person is totally capable of doing that after one date or 30 if they feel betrayed, but there is no sense of betrayal if they knew all along is there?

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No, it's not usually the risk of beatings and rape. I was obviously exaggerating for dramatic effect.
I don't think that was particularly helpful and just confused the issues.
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Just because some people are out and open doesn't mean everyone can afford that privilege. The fact that you know about their sexuality just means they aren't in Joe's position.
Of course not everyone can be open, I was referring to this specific context.
You are making quite a few assumptions about what I believe with regards to people protecting themselves based on what I believe in this context SC.

Instead of being righteously indignant, why not look at it from another POV?
Joe signs up at Polyamory.com and writes a lovely personal ad in the N.America section stating his interests and also he is "a bisexual, Poly kink man living in Alberta (or Texas or whereever) who doesn't want children"

Now since Joe could be anyone, a chimp, a plank of wood, a sock puppet...I don't know, I am not in any position to put Joe's career at risk, Joe hasn't even posted a picture and...his name isn't even really Joe....

But, he lives not far, Jane Doe is kinky and Poly and him being bi doesn't bother her, so is she!!! She doesn't want children either, so, she contacts him and after a nice time of online correspondence they meet up.

Sorted!

Scenario 2

Joe goes on 'singleTexan/Alberta.com' and leaves out all this deep dark stuff.
He meets a different Jane Doe, who is looking for 'the one' She starts to fall for Joe because he is perfect and then, one day....after a lovely romantic walk home holding hands Joe says 'I have something to tell you...'

Bam! Jane Doe goes psycho, tells all her girlfriends what a freak Joe is and how he led her on by pretending to be "normal". Even if Jane is not the vicious type and she won't be letting people know, how is he to feel confident of that? He might always worry she might put it on facebook, leaving him anxious and fearful.

I don't know how he is protecting himself by waiting either.

That was my point, please do extrapolate a whole world view out of such a simplistic scenario.

Natja
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  #443  
Old 03-20-2013, 06:54 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Natja View Post
I was talking about the gay community, which I assume Joe is smart enough to be looking for gay partners, within the gay community.....of course gay bashing exists, but your argument doesn't actually make sense in the context.
Joe is supposed gay, poly, and kinky. Don't know about your gay community, but ours is poly- and kink-unfriendly. You'd "think" that being on one fringe of society would tend to make people more accepting of the other fringes, but alas no. Not only do they fail to accept poly and kinky folks, but they actively distance themselves from them, not wanting straight folks to associate any of those things with being gay. It's really sick, actually. Ahh, welcome to Saskatchewan.

Quote:
Joe goes on 'singleTexan/Alberta.com' and leaves out all this deep dark stuff.
He meets a different Jane Doe, who is looking for 'the one' She starts to fall for Joe because he is perfect and then, one day....after a lovely romantic walk home holding hands Joe says 'I have something to tell you...'
There are smarter ways to broach the subject. "Jane, I saw this documentary last night on BDSM. What do you think about that?" "I just read an article online about people who are in multiple relationships where everyone knows about the other partners. It's called polyamory. That's kind of interesting, isn't it?" Joe wouldn't tell Jane unless he'd already "screened" her for acceptance of those lifestyles.

If you want to be a stickler for the original topic, he was talking about Plenty of Fish, not polyamory.com ... this forum is not a dating website by any stretch. There's a personal ads section, but from what I can see, they never go anywhere. Now I personally happen to agree with you that if your life allows it, then being as open and upfront about poly, kink, and bisexuality is fantastic. But that's a big "if."

I'm surprised I didn't realize this sooner... but I actually have a colleague who is literally Joe (buys his food from local farmers, makes his own wine, well respected in his field... bi, poly, kinky, child-free, closeted). The only significant difference is he's white and works in academia. He is absolutely terrified that his colleagues or students will find out. I only know about him because I started a local poly group on fetlife and he saw it. We have mutual friends so he figured it was safer to come out to me personally and swear me to secrecy rather than let me find out second-hand and inadvertently out him.

Yes, he has a profile that says all this on OKC. But because he can't put any pictures up and is scared to meet people who might out him, he doesn't tend to meet a lot of people that way. So it's a fine line.
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 03-20-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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  #444  
Old 03-20-2013, 10:52 PM
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Natja Natja is offline
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Joe is supposed gay, poly, and kinky.
Not to be pedantic, but Lotusesandroses did not say Joe is gay, just that he has sex with men, so he could be bisexual...

Quote:
Joe wouldn't tell Jane unless he'd already "screened" her for acceptance of those lifestyles.
And if she hasn't been and yet he really likes her? Poor Joe eh? Set up for a shed load of pain....

Quote:
If you want to be a stickler for the original topic, he was talking about Plenty of Fish, not polyamory.com
Doesn't really matter which website it is really, except that obviously the more alternative the personal site the more likely Joe will be able to meet others who can accept him for who he is and also understand why he may feel the need to be discreet.

Quote:
Yes, he has a profile that says all this on OKC.
But would he be more happy or date more successfully if he had a totally straight, vanilla and monogamous profile on OKC? Eventually you have to let that cat out of the bag and who knows how Jane Doe will take it?

No, it is never easy....

Natja
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  #445  
Old 03-30-2013, 07:29 PM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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On OK Cupid the statement of my independent polyamory is right there on my profile page; clear and explicit. This reduces the number of times I have these useless conversations greatly.

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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
And how do you know when you're dealing with someone who isn't going to come on board, no matter what you say, vs someone who needs some time to process what you're saying, but may come around in time?
I am not in the business of converting people. This reduces my dating pool to almost zero but I don't have the energy to chase a monogamous person around. I also don't have the energy to chase a permission based polyamorous people around either.
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  #446  
Old 03-30-2013, 07:34 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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"Come around" or "come on board" to WHAT? A relationship with you? If someone can't stand cats, I'm not going to wonder if some day I can convince them that they should get into the business of rescuing strays. I am going to focus my energies on people who ALREADY LOVE CATS and want to do more with that.
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  #447  
Old 03-30-2013, 08:05 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
"Come around" or "come on board" to WHAT? A relationship with you? If someone can't stand cats, I'm not going to wonder if some day I can convince them that they should get into the business of rescuing strays. I am going to focus my energies on people who ALREADY LOVE CATS and want to do more with that.
THANKS for putting the IMPORTANT BITS in CAPS to make it EASIER for us slow types to UNDERSTAND.

You're the BEST, BG.

As it happens, what I'm talking about is not the same as someone disliking CATS and trying to CONVINCE them that cats are GREAT.

I'M talking about the SITUATION where a person is UNAWARE that poly even EXISTS or is even an OPTION. I imagine there are quite a few people who, if shown that poly exists, would want to give it a TRY.

This is clearly different to a person that hates cats, but trying to convince them otherwise. I'm pretty sure that everyone in the world is aware of what a cat is, whereas poly is not quite such a mainstream thing.

But THANKS for your response anyway BG. I do enjoy your 'I'm GREAT and PERFECT and the rest of the world are total MORONS' approach to life. I have no doubt it serves you well.
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  #448  
Old 03-30-2013, 09:44 PM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
But THANKS for your response anyway BG. I do enjoy your 'I'm GREAT and PERFECT and the rest of the world are total MORONS' approach to life. I have no doubt it serves you well.
Holy crap dude!

lol
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  #449  
Old 03-31-2013, 07:16 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
THANKS for putting the IMPORTANT BITS in CAPS to make it EASIER for us slow types to UNDERSTAND.
Wow. Seriously?

Why so much hostility?
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  #450  
Old 03-31-2013, 08:32 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Wow. Seriously?

Why so much hostility?
My guess is that we're missing some background, and that there is a reason of some sort for ManofDiscovery to hate BoringGuy. But I reassure you, I too was shocked at MoD snapping like that for what seemed to me no reason at all.
I'm guessing there is something other than this thread to warrant it, though.
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