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Old 03-18-2013, 07:57 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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I recall reading earlier there isn't a D/s dynamic in your relationship. I only mention it, because I found the way the BDSM world defines boundaries so useful in normal life.

Hard limits are boundaries that are simply non-negotiable (and we all have them).
Soft limits may be negotiable in the right circumstances.

It sounds to me as though your wife may be struggling on establishing what the difference is-not only regarding your limits, but also her own.

It is VERY good that you have taken time alone to figure some of that out for yourself.
It would also be VERY good to make the offer (even if she refuses) to take the kids off her hands and allow her that opportunity.

The counselor is highly likely to be doing just that (establishing the base issues). If they didn't, they would be wasting their time and yours.

But-yes, the topics all pervasively affect the kids.

In problem solving, its helpful to establish the most important goal.
Which is why I advised prioritizing the kid topic.
It helps to align all of the extraneous aspects of the issue into a workable equation. Like..... Altering a system of algebraic equations into row-echelon form before trying to solve for x,y, and z.

If the best interests of the kids is the first goal, then all of the solutions are first measured against that criteria.

Do you read (non-fiction) at all?
"Love As Thou Wilt"
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:35 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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I believe the boundaries aspect of BDSM should apply and be respected. The dynamic isn't that of a D/S, but the hard and soft limits can definitely play a role. In essence that's what it was, but the respect started falling short. I didn't wait to bring that up. It was one that was addressed after the first few times. Albeit, subsequently ignored or "dismissed."

I don't think she's having a hard time differentiating between the two. I think at times she just doesn't care what the limits are because they aren't benefiting her or feel that they are there to limit her. She called herself selfish, and she has moments. Overall, she's not.

I was talking to my mum last night and we had a rather lengthy chat. She has never accepted my wife's girlfriend. Within minutes of meeting her, she pulled me to the side and she said, "You better watch her. I can't figure out what it is about her, but something is off." Mums are rarely wrong. I was never around her girlfriend for extended periods of time until last year, so I had never seen her do or say anything off.

She asked me if I was possibly picking up vibes that might help explain my sudden disdain with her. I've always been an accurate judge of character, and the more I think about it, the more I realise there is something I picked up on during the short time we dated. I couldn't pinpoint it, so I let that go. I thought it was just the newness of being with someone different and her having a different personality. It's deeper than that. She reminds me of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Even if it's not the full blown disorder, there are tendencies in play. She has a sense of entitlement. "I was in the delivery room and there during both pregnancies, so I deserve to be co-parent." "I don't want to move, so everything should stop until I decide I'm ready." I think another tendency is in motion. Narcissists sometimes use others to get what they want. Right now, she's using my wife's love for her as a way to get what she wants, which seems to be to make my wife reconsider what she's always wanted regarding the education of our kids. If she can get her to reconsider, that means there will be no moving, and they won't have to be in a LDR. Her empathy is not there. I remember one night my wife and I had both worked, and we were dead tired. She came by, and one would think that as a "co-parent" she'd at least ask if we needed any help with the kids or if there was anything she could do. Wrong. She just said, "Oh ok," proceeded to finish getting dressed, and went out to the clubs with her friends. There are all just opinions, but behaviours have a habit of becoming patterns and routine. So routine that they can often be missed because they become "normal" or "just how the person is."

I love to read non-fiction when I have time. These days I have plenty of time. I wouldn't mind being on full-time daddy duty, so my wife could take some time alone. I would strongly encourage her to do so. I'd imagine that she needs to regroup after all of this. Though, we're not on the best of terms, I care about her overall well-being, and I do still want her to be happy.

Last edited by Matt; 03-18-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:50 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Mums are rarely wrong.
As a mom, I could have told you that . As a daughter, it pissed me off .

It definitely sounds like the time away has been very good for you. Being able to start to pinpoint the behaviors and such that repulse you and rub you the wrong way is good start.

Every parent of small children needs time away, even just for a day or two at a time.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:14 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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Originally Posted by SNeacail View Post
As a mom, I could have told you that . As a daughter, it pissed me off .

It definitely sounds like the time away has been very good for you. Being able to start to pinpoint the behaviors and such that repulse you and rub you the wrong way is good start.

Every parent of small children needs time away, even just for a day or two at a time.
I hate to admit it when my mum is right. In my 39 years of living, she's never been wrong. I had this one mate when I was around 14. Mum was like, "He's going to bad for you. Mind the company you keep." Within 6 months of her saying that, he ended up getting expelled for selling drugs on campus. Our school had a strict no tolerance policy. To this day, I wonder what mum saw in him that lead to those statements. All she says is, "Mothers know."

The time away has calmed me down and done wonders. Some things are set. I want no contact with her girlfriend. That is firm. Divorce is still on the table if nothing changes. She needs to put our kids best interest and their needs before anything. She has to be willing to work on our marriage with no influence from any outside forces. Our business needs to stay between us. Part of the problem now is her girlfriend is too privy, opinionated, and knows way too much for my liking. She needs to keep her opinions to herself and out of our marriage. They wreak havoc and don't belong.

I think better when I don't feel closed in. I had to do a lot of reflecting to figure out where some of these issues originated. I find myself posing many questions when those moments of clarity happen. Still a work in progress and striving to get better every day.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:41 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Reading material-

The Seven Levels of Intimacy. I can't remember off hand the authors name. If you can't find it with a search-let me know I will look it up. I own the book-but it's currently loaned out-so I can't go look at it. :P

Anyway, it's a great book (nothing to do with poly) about ANY kind of relationship and how we can improve them-even if they are only between ourself and the cashier.

I read non-stop, all of the time. One of the biggest loves of my life. That book is by far the best relationship book I have ever encountered.
There is some light reference to spirituality-but it isn't pushing any specific religious agenda.

Anyway-I highly suggest both of you read it. Consider what level of relationship you would like with one another & what can be done to make the changes that will create that.

I realize you have been looking at what you don't want/can't deal with etc.
But sometimes it's easier for others to hear specific examples of what we do want-that aren't colored with reference to anyone else.

Example: from wife to husband-address the details of THIS relationship with no reference to girlfriend (different relationship).

from husband to wife-address details of THIS relationship with no reference to her girlfriend.

Also- for wife-it might be helpful for you, in regards to one of his complaints (about the relationships being separate and him not married to you and your girlfriend)
to go read the notes & links Galagirl has posted in her blog thread regarding polymath tiers.

The relationships ARE separate. EVEN in a triad (where all three people are romantically involved) each relationship is separate.
It's laid out SO WELL in some of the links galagirl regularly quotes-it's well worth the read.

In order for any relationship (and this is true from parent to child, other parent to child and sibling to sibling as well) to be healthy-it's imperative that the parties in that relationship have time to focus solely on their relationship.

So, for example,
myself, Maca, GG and our kids at home, sweetpea and sourpea.

There are these relationships:

AND there are all of the combinations of 3 and all of the combinations of 4 and then the relationship of all 5 of us as a family.

The same is true in your dynamic.
For his own health Matt has said that the relationship between him and Si has been terminated and is no-contact.
That is his right and he has stated it is a NEED.
That needs to be respected.

If you want to work on the relationship between Matt & Wife, that has to be focused upon just those two.
There is also matt-baby matt-bigger child
wife-baby wife bigger child and baby-bigger child.

Those each require their own maintance too.

Understanding that this is true for EACH duo and then also the trios etc is KEY to understanding that Matt's statement that he is needing to work on his relationship with YOU-really doesn't have ANYTHING to do with Si and the topic of Si needs to be left alone in order to focus on the issues within this relationship.

Sigh... de ja vu.

I do hope some of this helps!
"Love As Thou Wilt"
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:41 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Once she figures it out, I may consider giving more than partial effort in therapy. If she can't answer why she cares, I don't agree with giving my all.
While I can't speak for your wife, I can tell you that I can't tell my husband "why" I love him. I just do.

Indeed, any time I've been able to list off a bunch of "reasons" I love someone, it's turned out to be things I loved about them, not actually indications that I love the person theirself.

That's not to say I can't list things I love about my husband, but none of them is the reason I love him.

Originally Posted by Matt View Post
My wife has not only put her girlfriend and their relationship ahead of me and our marriage, but I see where it's happening with our kids now. She's a good mother, but I see some of those same behaviours emerging.
Giving her the benefit of the doubt, she could also be putting (gasp) herself in front of you and your marriage. As she should. Polyamory is part of who she is. Her girlfriend reflects that. Her monogamous husband does not. If being with the girlfriend makes her happy, then doing things to keep the girlfriend in her life is part of putting herself first.

But even without that... she's said she puts the marriage before her kids. If she were putting the girlfriend before her marriage, then by extension, she's putting the girlfriend before the kids.
As I am sure any cat owner will be able to tell you,
someone else putting you in a box is entirely different
from getting into a box yourself.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:23 AM
dragonflysky dragonflysky is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
.....Though, we're not on the best of terms, I care about her overall well-being, and I do still want her to be happy.
I don't see where you want her to be happy...unless it's on your terms. Just as you have accused her and her gf of wanting things to be on their terms so they could be happy.

I see a lot of dynamics that happen when a couple divorces and another partner has come into the picture for one of them....except in this situation the other partner was there before the divorce. You wife loves her partner. You were ok with this for quite some time as far as you let your wife know. Is she supposed to just forget about her since you don't like her? Are your children supposed to drop any attachment to the gf because you're uncomfortable with her?

When I married my second husband, my first husband (with whom I had children) didn't get to choose who it was. We had certain "rules" that were followed in both homes, e.g. no drugs in the home and no alcohol abuse in the home. My religious beliefs had changed from those of my first husband, and I left Christianity and followed more of a pagan based belief system. Initially my ex didn't want our children exposed to "such beliefs and practices." Through divorce mediation, I agreed to him being able to take our children to his Christian church every Sunday, and I was allowed to expose our children to my spiritual beliefs.

I allowed certain music/musicians in my home that weren't allowed in their dad's home because his second wife was a fundamentalist Christian who felt some of the music was "satanic". NOT my belief system! I did tell my sons that those CDs were NEVER to be taken or played in their Dad's home, nor were they to ever throw it up in their dad and stp mom's face about what "mom" let them have. The CDs were to be left at my house for when they came and spent time with me, or left in their car.

My first husband and I eventually worked with a divorce mediator who started out by encouraging us to create a shared "vision" for our lives with our children as a divorced couple who would always "co-parent" to some degree for the remainder of our lives. To get over the hurt and anger and threats.....and accept the divorce as a "given" and focus on what we wanted for our children. This would get a bit messy when each of us had another partner enter our lives....but it helped to keep referring back to that vision we had agreed on.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:07 AM
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NovemberRain NovemberRain is offline
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My therapest has a good story about her husband. She used to say, 'why do you love me?' and he would say, 'Because I said so.'

I get that, now that I'm with FBF. None of the reasons are the things. I just do.
Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own...
Robert A. Heinlein

Me: female, bi, (formerly hinge of a vee)
with FirstBoyFriend (FBF)(moderately long-distance)
and no longer with CurrentBoyFriend (CBF)(who now lives in a house far away-with stairs I can't climb)
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:51 PM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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I had to step away, so I missed quite a bit.

As far as my polyamory, Matt does not support it, understand it, or even like it for that matter. The only positives to that are he has not asked me to end my relationship, and he is still here and trying to work with me. The negative is that if we cannot see eye to eye and mutually agree to the necessary changes, he is walking away from our marriage.

Initially, I thought that was very selfish and wrong of him, but then I put myself in his shoes. If my needs were being ignored/overlooked/dismissed, would I really want to stay? Would I really want to have to keep compromising and sacrificing my happiness and my beliefs for the gain of another? Would I want to be miserable and resentful as opposed to happy and satisfied? Am I really okay with only getting tiny increments of the person I love just to say they are in my life? The answer to each was a resounding no. Matt was displaced, and that was of my own fault, complacency, and utter selfishness. He did what he was supposed to do in bringing things to my attention, and I made a daft error that has in essence cost me my marriage, his trust in me, and more importantly, our family. Matt reached a point where he could no longer handle being ignored and feeling like his say regarding our children was minimal and being vetoed by someone he viewed as not even being part of our family. After feeling that way, he felt like divorce was the only option.

I now understand why he lashed out the way he did and more of why he feels the way he does. What happens when you feel as though you do not belong? You leave, and that is the point that he is/was at. I had ignored him for so long due to my relationship with Si, and he was prepared to walk out of the door. In some instances, you cannot stop the person. His emotional needs were virtually cast aside. His views were dismissed as being silly or not taken seriously by me. I understand why he no longer feels that he can trust me. I understand why he only talks to me at best twice a week. I took my husband and the security and stability of our marriage for granted and let the other one take charge of my entire life.

I spent most of Sunday with our daughter. Children are more intelligent and sharper than we think. Upon talking to her, it was the start of a light bulb moment. She was telling me about how excited she was about learning new things, going to a new school, and making new friends. I cannot let my baby down and enable Si to get in the way of that. I am sorry that she feels like I am leaving her, but being a mother takes priority. I hope she can understand that. It is not about me, Matt, or even Si. As a mother, I only want to see my children go on and do great things. Out of the 20 schools we looked at, this one is the one she picked. We wanted her to feel like an important member in the decision making process, so we included her and asked her opinions. In the end, Matt and I listened to our daughter, relatives, friends, colleagues, all loved ones, and we decided what was best. I am not reneging on that because it would not be fair to my child.

LovingRadiance...that was all a tremendous help. I will have to go back and find the links from GalaGirl and read the information. When I walked away from this, it was to stop it from consuming my entire being and weighing me down. Somebody had to be the sane one, and Matt has calmed down, so his sanity is returning.

Matt and I actually talked earlier this morning. It had to be around 1-2 AM. I do my best thinking at the oddest times. I was shocked that he answered, but I was elated that he did. I miss my hubby, and as much as I hate to admit it, I need him around. It is just not the same. There is a void that has been present since he left on the 10th. I would love for him to come home, but it has to be on his terms and when he feels ready.

And Matt does care about my well being. He asked me if I had been sleeping enough, eating properly, and taking care of myself. I am now. Yoga, Pilates, and meditation are my daily habits now. All in all, I am doing better now than before. I am hanging in there, owning up to my mistakes, ready to compromise, gaining introspect, and willing to work with my hubby to correct the issues in our marriage.
Ry - Me. Panromantic demisexual with a history of polyamorist tendencies. Married to...
Matt (Hubby) - The once distant stranger that I complement beautifully. DH of 13 years and father of our four children.

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Last edited by FullofLove1052; 03-19-2013 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:03 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Matt ,

On the topic of custody you've said you will fight but what exactly would you be fighting for ...50/50 ...sole custody ? OR fighting against what you assume she want ...sole or 80/20 split ...see them on the weekend thing.

Giving her the benefit of the doubt, she could also be putting (gasp) herself in front of you and your marriage. As she should. Polyamory is part of who she is. If being with the girlfriend makes her happy, then doing things to keep the girlfriend in her life is part of putting herself first.
Isnt that at the heart of narcissism.

What kind of partnership/marriage is that? Which I guess is the base question Matt's having right now.

DO narcissists attract to one another? Does anyone know a couple in which both are narcissists?

And what kind of compromise can be can be reached if one spouse is always putting there need, wants, pleasure in front of their legally committed partner.
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