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  #151  
Old 03-13-2013, 11:00 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by BaggagePatrol View Post
Judgements and aggressive language seem counterintuitive to encouraging a forum member to find their voice and express their needs to a partner.
Note: Nobody here has any obligation to encourage anybody else to find their voice or express their needs.

Seriously.

BG has been having an interesting and useful discussion with others posting in this thread. That Matt wasn't posting is not BG's problem. As BG hasn't been flaming anybody and the discussion has been productive, there's nothing for folks to complain about.

If you don't like BG's posts, avoid reading them. BG has no obligation to discuss anything in a fashion you would prefer. You don't have to like BG's style. That's OK.

This post serves as a reminder to everybody, actually. It's perfectly OK if somebody posts something here that you don't like. It's perfectly OK if somebody posts in a fashion that you don't like. We have never guaranteed that you won't be offended at any time. A great part of the value this site offers readers is that it supports multiple viewpoints and reactions.
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When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
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  #152  
Old 03-14-2013, 12:14 AM
Matt Matt is offline
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Good morning. Nobody ran me off of here. I wasn't offended by anything or anyone. I can tune you out or ignore you if you're not saying anything I care to read. The same should apply. Don't like what I'm saying? Don't respond or overlook this. That's that. No hard feelings.

I never lost my voice. It wasn't heard because it wasn't what was desired. Something finally clicked during our last session. She actually understood me. I could have given her a round of applause. I've been waiting for that day. It feels nice to be heard.

I don't owe anybody but my kids a thing. I owe it to them to try to stay in this marriage and keep our family together. I'm doing it for my kids and myself. I'm not even doing it for my wife. That's part of the problem. I've been doing things too long to keep the peace and to keep her happy. Bot doing that anymore. I'm not really hurt contrary to what's believed. Initially, yeah. Guess what? Got over it and moved on. Sitting around sighing and wishing things were different wasn't going to change facts.

I'm not even angry. I actually felt a bit of softness toward my wife. I told her I loved her before I went to bed. We actually had a nice little chat. Once the awkward vibes wore off, it was ace.

I did have an awakening. I'm in a different chapter of my life, and part of that chapter involved deciding whether to just live in an almost constant state of diluted contentment with occasional times of happiness or genuinely be happy. Part of that contentment included only having a piece of my wife and pieces of her time due to her other relationship. Nothing in life is fair, but if I'm giving 100%, where is it written or acceptable that I get 20%? I know I can't have all of her time. We have small children, careers, and lives outside of each other.

I dealt with her poly lifestyle, state of being, or whatever it is you want to call it. It was like a watered down drink at a bar. After so many, you might get a buzz, but eventually that feeling wears off, and you sober up. I sobered up after years of dilution, being drunk on love, and started thinking clearly instead of with an intoxicated mind and love laden heart. Could I have just demanded that she live in a monogamous way to please me? Sure, but we'd be divorced now, and well, I'd probably be in my second marriage.

At the end of the day, I wasn't lying to myself or trying to prevent being alone. I can handle being alone. I can be alone and treat myself well. It was a compromise and slowly turned into me getting the short end of the stick. In the beginning, I got to be with the woman I loved, and she got to keep on living the way she pleased and also got to keep her other relationship. Major compromise from a person with a monogamous background and hard wired for it.

Slowing down? What was that going to change? I don't want to hear about how it's unfair to the kids and they didn't ask for this. I know that, which is why I separated myself and decided to at least try other things before saying to hell with it. If you're going down that road, they didn't ask for a part-time "mother" in that girlfriend of my wife's or to even be part of a poly family. Did they have a say in either of those things?

This relationship is a poly relationship because of my wife. It doesn't matter that I'm monogamous. This situation still has to be treated like a poly relationship and handled like one. I can't say I expected balanced support from here. A monogamous marriage forum wouldn't understand this. We even had to find a poly-friendly therapist. It was either go to one of those forums or go to one that describes the type of relationship I'm in. I chose the second. Suddenly I'm the personification of Anti-Polydom. My situation is mine. I don't have the power to influence anybody to do anything. I don't see myself running from thread to thread and telling people to get the hell out of dodge right now to prevent this from happening to them. I also don't see myself bashing the way anyone lives. I don't understand it, but that's where that ends on here. Somethings just aren't meant for me to understand. Shrug.

And my situation is no different than those of you who woke up after x amount of years of a monogamous relationship and marriage and acknowledging that it's just not enough. In my case, I accepted that only getting a fraction and some of my wife simply wasn't enough anymore. It's the reverse for me.

Once again, I hope you're all doing well and thriving in your lives. If not, I hope things work out for you. Out again.

Last edited by Matt; 03-14-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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  #153  
Old 03-14-2013, 01:10 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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First let me ask if you think its possible for someone to have an awakening.? Do you understand the premise of the reverse awakening as it applies here.?

#2 If a person was a serial monogamist, a cheater, etc for years (history) ...finally gets married ...commits to a traditional mono marriage.. is happy for several years ...has kids ....more years pass ... not so happy for a period of time and then he or she reads a book see's a tv show has a dream or whatever and boom it clicks I"M POLY ...I"M wiring for non monogamy.
Is that person a liar? Was he or she Lying to themselves and their spouse all that time ?
Since this describes how I lived for 20 years when I was married, I'd have to say yes. I didn't know about the possibility of ethical non monogamy, but I still felt I was lying to my ex husband whenever I got crushes on friends, neighbors or celebrities, he'd suspect it, and I'd deny it "to protect his feelings."

I also felt like an evil slut.

So, in Matt's case, I'd say it's even more like lying, because of course he knew the possibility of monogamy exists. It's our culture's default.

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Where's the line in trying to assimilate trying to make things work for your wife/ marriage, the greater dynamic AND doing things "just" to make someone else happy.
It is a fine line! There is compromise you can live with, and then there is compromise that undermines your very soul. Perhaps Matt over-compromised though. Mono/poly marriages exist and do work, he maybe just needed better time management, but he didn't speak up and things went on too long.



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I've never seen anyone suggest they should carefully weigh the effects of changing the marital dynamic on children when considering taking up a poly lifestyle with a reluctant spouse. Ive read a lot of threads never seen that.
How odd. It seems to me people consider their children all the time in poly. Personally I know I've said I could NOT have done poly very well when my kids were young... they took so much energy I had no interest in dating other partners. I would have just liked to be able to comment on attractive people to my ex without his jealousy going through the roof!

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He British so he's got cultural baggage surrounding repressed emotions.
I said that. It's not a judgment, it's an assumption that might have some merit.

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Why can't he have a mono identity?
He can of course. If he wants a mono partnership, however, that is going to take some work now. He'd probably need a new partner.

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That seem to be belittled by those thing. Her identity must be honored ...and his can be compromised.
No one should compromise their entire personality and soul. However, that was his choice and modus operandi. Now, he has to entirely restructure his life, plus the lives of his wife, his metamour and his 2 young children.

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How would you do that with gay person ?
Calm down, please, dinged. No one is asking Matt to have a romantic relationship with more than one woman, or with a man... No one is insisting he remain in this relationship within the same parameters. The 180 he made, from acting content, to actually having sex with his metamour, to then wanting out of everything and burning all bridges, that was the concern.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #154  
Old 03-14-2013, 02:03 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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Metamour. I hate that bloody word. I slept with her, and I can count the number of times one hand. It wasn't a continuous thing. Once that guilt was in motion, it came to a dead stop. It never happened again. The beauty of that is I told her why it must stop. It felt like cheating. Why continue doing something that makes you feel like shit?

My 180 is within reason. Each of us knows how we want to live and what we need to do in order to live that way. For most of you, monogamy is not part of that image. You might tried monogamy for however long, and you came to a crossroads or a point of no longer being able to deny who you were. Continue living and feeling like something was missing or talk to your spouse about opening your marriage. What would have happened if your spouse had not been accepting or on board with that idea? Would you have left, or would you have let them leave in order to pursuit your happiness?

I never lied to my wife or even to myself for that matter. I knew she was polyamorous. I knew that meant compromising, being understanding, being tolerant, and making sacrifices. I grew out of it. I grew tired of being so accommodating, always compromising, always making sacrifices, and always being understanding. In return, my concerns were ignored and my say was undermined. I guess none of that matters. I didn't try to change her, and she got to keep other relationship.

For me, polyamory is not part of my vision anymore. I lived with it for years, and then over time, I questioned whether I wanted to live contently with occasional bursts of happiness for the rest of my life, or did I want pure and true happiness? It reeks of settling. At some point, you get tired of only getting a fraction of someone you married. It got old. Especially as she started getting complacent and putting her other relationship before our marriage. Then, her other relationship and our marriage became a hybrid creation. It wasn't that I wasn't saying it. It wasn't heard. My wife didn't want to hear it because well she probably assumed that I would demand that she end her relationship. Presumptuousness in essence. I was tuned out because I wasn't saying the right thing. Those things included..."Yes, I want to continue being part of this poly family. Yes, I will accept your girlfriend." Maybe I should have jumped up and down on the furniture and screamed it, eh?

Initially, the good outweighed the bad, so I stuck it out. I had a wife and two children. I liked my life. It was good up until a certain point. Notice I didn't say loved. Was every moment of our lives filled with blissful joy, rainbows, and spinning around a campfire singing Kumbaya ? No. Come on now.

I've been dying to say this. This isn't in a hateful way, but I don't really give a damn if her girlfriend's life has to be restructured. That's her problem. I have enough to deal with in my marriage. Let alone an issue with her. She's a grown woman. She's not part of my family or any part of my future. The end.

I care about my kids well-being. I know if push came to shove, my wife would be alright. With or without me. She has someone else to fall back on, and well, she's an integral part of her life, so if I left, what difference would it make? She wouldn't have to deal with a husband who doesn't want to be part of any of this. She could find one who has no problem with it. You never want to do anything to hurt a loved one. I know that, and never would I ever do anything to intentionally hurt her or cause her pain.
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  #155  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:31 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Metamour. I hate that bloody word. I slept with her... It felt like cheating. Why continue doing something that makes you feel like shit?
Metamour doesn't mean sex partner. Metamour means partner of your partner. If Si was your partner, we'd call her your partner. She's the gf of your wife, therefore your metamour. A metamour is someone you do NOT have romance or sex with. For a month or two, you and Si were partners, you and she and FoL experiemented with being a full triad, even to the point of thinking about getting Si pregnant.

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My 180 is within reason.
You may be telling yourself and us you're being reasonable, but we see you as emotional in this thread. Angry, disgusted, fed up. Hurt.


Quote:
I never lied to my wife or even to myself for that matter. I knew she was polyamorous. I knew that meant compromising, being understanding, being tolerant, and making sacrifices. I grew out of it. I grew tired of being so accommodating, always compromising, always making sacrifices, and always being understanding. In return, my concerns were ignored and my say was undermined.
Why were your concerns ignored and undermined? Is FoL that clueless or did you express your desires so mildly she didn't understand the depth of your feelings and needs? Since you told us you'd actually invite Si to stay for dinner (politely yet dishonestly, a social little white lie), and not tell her you wanted more time alone with FoL, I am guessing the latter.

Quote:
I guess none of that matters.
It matters! Everyone's feelings matter, but as we've been saying, especially in poly relationships, or even more in mono/poly, your needs have to be CLEARLY expressed. It's not fair to expect your partner, or her partner, to mind read.


Quote:
For me, polyamory is not part of my vision anymore. I lived with it for years, and then over time, I questioned whether I wanted to live contently with occasional bursts of happiness for the rest of my life, or did I want pure and true happiness? It reeks of settling. At some point, you get tired of only getting a fraction of someone you married. It got old. Especially as she started getting complacent and putting her other relationship before our marriage. Then, her other relationship and our marriage became a hybrid creation. It wasn't that I wasn't saying it. It wasn't heard. My wife didn't want to hear it because well she probably assumed that I would demand that she end her relationship. Presumptuousness in essence. I was tuned out because I wasn't saying the right thing.
Well, I guess you could say, "I didn't speak up ( and in fact said things I didn't really mean), or she tuned me out when I did speak up." We here can't know... That dynamic can be explored in therapy, and maybe, just maybe, if you tweak it, "this marriage can be saved."

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Initially, the good outweighed the bad, so I stuck it out. I had a wife and two children. I liked my life. It was good up until a certain point. Notice I didn't say loved. Was every moment of our lives filled with blissful joy, rainbows, and spinning around a campfire singing Kumbaya ? No. Come on now.
Well, no one's is, except maybe certain religious people who sit in a cave communing with their god non-stop, totally non-attached to the material plane. We all strive for happiness, pursue it even, and that is our right. Heck, it's in the US Constitution. I guess we all hope to be as happy as possible in an imperfect world. My bf actually states he is fine with mere contentment. Me, I like some ecstasy, although I am not in that state 24/7.

Quote:
I've been dying to say this. This isn't in a hateful way, but I don't really give a damn if her girlfriend's life has to be restructured. That's her problem. I have enough to deal with in my marriage. Let alone an issue with her. She's a grown woman. She's not part of my family or any part of my future. The end.
Here are the kinds of words that tell us you're angry, bitter. That is not "reasonable," though not unacceptable either. However, your metamour, your wife's gf, is a part of your larger family. My ex husband's gf ... I dont see her much, but I do consider her a part of my extended family because my/our son (age 21) lives with my ex, and the gf lives nearby and so they spend a good deal of time together. And your kids are so little, they consider Si their other mother.

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I care about my kids well-being. I know if push came to shove, my wife would be alright. With or without me. She has someone else to fall back on, and well, she's an integral part of her life, so if I left, what difference would it make?
Well, don't underestimate how much you mean to FoL. Poly people don't just take comfort in one lover when they lose another one. It hurts just as much to lose one as it does for a mono person.

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She wouldn't have to deal with a husband who doesn't want to be part of any of this. She could find one who has no problem with it.
Perhaps, but she loves YOU. It's going to be painful if you break up.

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You never want to do anything to hurt a loved one. I know that, and never would I ever do anything to intentionally hurt her or cause her pain.
And hopefully you will take action in such as way as to cause as little unintentional harm and pain as well, eh?
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #156  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:35 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Metamour. I hate that bloody word.
Out of curiosity, why do you hate the word? It just means your partner's partner. It has nothing to do with sleeping with someone (I'd venture a guess that most metamours NEVER sleep together). I mean, it's not the greatest made-up word ever, but then neither is "polyamory". Mixing Greek and Latin roots!!

As for the rest of it, it certainly seems like your time alone been used well. The way you write now, it seems much calmer and matter-of-fact. Yes, if you have been saying it over time but you weren't listened to, that isn't lying to yourself. I'm sorry it reached a point where you felt your only or best option was to leave (for now, anyway), but if your wife was not listening to you or giving your relationship what you felt it needed, then I can certainly understand you feeling backed into a corner and lashing out. I hope you guys are able to work together to find some sort of peaceable resolution.
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  #157  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:43 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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What would have happened if your spouse had not been accepting or on board with that idea? Would you have left, or would you have let them leave in order to pursuit your happiness?
I'll give you my answer to this, even though it sounds like it might be a rhetorical question. I considered this very thing before I brought up the topic with my Spouse after being together for... 9 years? My math isn't working right now.

First of all, MONOGAMY was never something that was a big deal to me, and marriage wasn't that big a deal to my Spouse (we did that so we ccould have the legal-next-of-kin established because I don't have any living relatives whom I trust to make decisions on my behalf should the need present itself, etc. So I didn't see it as some huge OMGBBQ-I-just-realized-i'm-poly-whoop-dee-doo-we-need-to-discuss-our-relationship event. But, I knew there were people from the past that I hadn't seen for years that might come back into my life, so I told Spouse about this, and they said "so, you want to try an open relationship?" If they had said "No, I don't want any part of that" I would have said "OK" and that would have been it. I am thankful that I have ONE good relationship, never mind two. Had Spouse responded with "no", then that would have established "real" monogamy, i guess. It isn't NECESSARY to "practice" more than one relationship just because you can have a feeling for more than one person.

By the way, you do know what "metamour" means, right? It sounds like you might have it confused. It sounds like you think it means "mutual partner", like the "third" person in a triad where all are involved with each other. Is that what you think it means, or not?
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  #158  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:43 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
Out of curiosity, why do you hate the word? It just means your partner's partner. It has nothing to do with sleeping with someone (I'd venture a guess that most metamours NEVER sleep together). I mean, it's not the greatest made-up word ever, but then neither is "polyamory". Mixing Greek and Latin roots!!
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post

By the way, you do know what "metamour" means, right? It sounds like you might have it confused. It sounds like you think it means "mutual partner", like the "third" person in a triad where all are involved with each other. Is that what you think it means, or not?



HA! I was typing the same thing as you were. Jinx!


ETA: Mags too.

Last edited by BoringGuy; 03-14-2013 at 04:45 PM.
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  #159  
Old 03-14-2013, 04:50 PM
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Out of curiosity, why do you hate the word? It just means your partner's partner. It has nothing to do with sleeping with someone
From my own introspection (not to speak for Matt, but I tend to not use the word, either), I think it's partly because of the way it sounds... "Metamour" implies a relationship with my partner's other partner by virtue of THEIR relationship. It has no bearing on what MY relationship to that person is, and if I don't feel a personal relationship with that person, I'm very hesitant to use words that imply such. It's the difference between calling a person "My sister-in-law" or "X's sister". One term does a better job of keeping a person (emotionally) at arm's length if you don't feel a connection (or if you feel animosity).
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:53 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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From my own introspection (not to speak for Matt, but I tend to not use the word, either), I think it's partly because of the way it sounds... "Metamour" implies a relationship with my partner's other partner by virtue of THEIR relationship. It has no bearing on what MY relationship to that person is, and if I don't feel a personal relationship with that person, I'm very hesitant to use words that imply such. It's the difference between calling a person "My sister-in-law" or "X's sister". One term does a better job of keeping a person (emotionally) at arm's length if you don't feel a connection (or if you feel animosity).
I don't think that was what happened in this case, but I know what you are talking about. "My father's wife" is not "my stepmother" because I never had that kind of relationship with her. I don't dislike her, in fact i like her better than my father, but I just never had a parent-child thing going on with her.
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