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  #131  
Old 03-12-2013, 12:08 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Ugly custody disputes with divorces that drag on are NOT a normal part of life.

My parents got divorced when I was a teenager. It was amicable and relatively painless. They both agreed that the marriage was unhealthy, they both truly wanted what was best for me, and they both made sure to upset my life as little as possible. That's what loving parents do.

Parents who treat their children as pawns in their "I'm going to get you before you get me" bullshit don't deserve to be parents.

You signed up for a poly relationship. Take some fucking responsibility for that and don't drag your kids into your tornado of misery. They didn't sign up for any of this. So you fucked up and made a mistake? That's fine, you're human. But now that you know better, start acting like a grown-up and drop the selfish "I'll do what I want, no matter who gets hurt" crap.
I disagree. Maybe not normal life, but they are apart of life. Somewhere in the world somebody's sitting in a family law courtroom trying to either make modifications to a custody arrangement, clashing over custody, or trying to find a solution via a mediator. The difference is you were a teenager, and you were probably given the option to say where you wanted to be or who you preferred to be with. Was that taken into consideration? After a certain age, you can be asked. Our children aren't old enough for that, so it would be out of our hands and based on a number of factors or solely at the judge's discretion.

I don't have to stay somewhere that I don't want to stay. Part of being an adult is owning up to things. I signed up for it and outgrew this bullshit. No different than falling out of love with somebody. Yeah, you try to get that old feeling back and do everything possible to remember that feeling, but if it's broken, sometimes you have to let it be. No matter how many ways you force something or try to make the pieces fit, sometimes it just doesn't work. I fell out of "contentment" with this arrangement. In a relationship, shouldn't you be a little more than content? It's not her job to make me happy. I'm responsible for my happiness, but this marriage is part of my life and should evoke some happy thoughts and feelings. People change every day, and I'm no different. There's no crime in that. Kids or not. I'm not staying in a marriage to JUST keep the family together because it's painless or the easy thing to do. I said I would try everything from A-Y. That's flexible and at minimum open to compromise. Z or divorce is the last resort.

I know what I'm up against with my wife. I'm not a fool. Nothing will be amicable or painless because she won't let it be, and you know how I know with certainty? The words came from HER mouth. Is she just pissed off because I'm wanting to remove a choice from her? I'd imagine so. She can't have her cake and eat it too, this time. The only thing amicable will be splitting finances, properties, and anything acquired during our marriage. The only reason? A prenuptial agreement that spelled everything out, and postnuptial agreement that reaffirmed was routinely modified to accommodate any changes. You never plan for a divorce, but you can't be stupid or blindsided if the time comes.

Last edited by Matt; 03-12-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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  #132  
Old 03-12-2013, 01:15 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is online now
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I hear, Matt, that you felt pressured almost from the get-go, to be a part of this V. First couple years, NRE, swept off your feet, new gf could do no wrong because you were hot for her. But after that, you felt pressured to be a "nice guy" and accept Si in your lives... "in your marriage."

I even read FoL to say she's been "encouraging" you all along to get with Si sexually and romantically, to make your V into a full triad. After so many years, a few months ago, you gave this a go. Somehow when that didn't work out, you did the 180 and are now completely disgusted with Si (and your resentment of FoL has come fully to your consciousness as well).

Some people feel disgusted with a sex partner after the orgasm. This is like a post orgasmic disgust writ large and mega.

I am glad to see you write you'll try everything from A-Y to create a new dynamic with these women. However, you seem to be clinging to the divorce life raft quite firmly... the ultimate threat! You feel your true power lies in your ability to abandon both women and let the chips fall where they may for your young children. This idea of filing for divorce instead of focusing on less drastic measures gives you some comfort. It's early days, you're out for revenge. Perhaps more time and calmer negotiations will eventually ensue.
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  #133  
Old 03-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
I hear, Matt, that you felt pressured almost from the get-go, to be a part of this V. First couple years, NRE, swept off your feet, new gf could do no wrong because you were hot for her. But after that, you felt pressured to be a "nice guy" and accept Si in your lives... "in your marriage."

I even read FoL to say she's been "encouraging" you all along to get with Si sexually and romantically, to make your V into a full triad. After so many years, a few months ago, you gave this a go. Somehow when that didn't work out, you did the 180 and are now completely disgusted with Si (and your resentment of FoL has come fully to your consciousness as well).

Some people feel disgusted with a sex partner after the orgasm. This is like a post orgasmic disgust writ large and mega.

I am glad to see you write you'll try everything from A-Y to create a new dynamic with these women. However, you seem to be clinging to the divorce life raft quite firmly... the ultimate threat! You feel your true power lies in your ability to abandon both women and let the chips fall where they may for your young children. This idea of filing for divorce instead of focusing on less drastic measures gives you some comfort. It's early days, you're out for revenge. Perhaps more time and calmer negotiations will eventually ensue.
As stated before, I'm realist, and I don't like being blindsided by surprises. I'm not clinging to the divorce as a control mechanism or even a threat. It's what I will do. If none of the solutions work out, then yes, I'm still going to leave my marriage. Nobody needs to stay in a marriage or relationship where they aren't satisfied or happy. Poly minded people say, "Never try to change a person, but YOU always have the option to leave if you know you can't do it." I'm willing to try to do it, but if at any point it becomes a fact that I can't, I'm going to leave. That's that, and it's firm and within my own right. Why sit around and wait for her to ask me for a divorce? I'm the only one who didn't want to be part of a poly "family," and if I so desire, I should be the one to leave. I'm not out for revenge. I'm thinking clearly and with my head for the first time since this bullshit has started. Not from the point of a bruised ego or whatever else might be suggested in the future. I'm in control of what I do with my life. Yes, I have kids, but it's not benefiting them to see what a marriage shouldn't be like. Mother and father aren't talking, and there's a hostile silence. We can't just exist, share a house, and share expenses. That's not a marriage or any type of relationship I want to be in. I can't be the only one willing to change, and if I am, all these efforts will be in vain.
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  #134  
Old 03-12-2013, 01:26 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default Matt, forget what everyone here says

These aren't the people you need to be talking to, if they aren't your wife or her girlfriend who gives a fuck about what they say.

But seriously, ugly divorces never do any families any good, not ever. Regardless of whether or not you stay together, you have children together. The topics that led you to where you are, are some of the hardest topics to talk about, it sucks that you had to vent here, but you did finally speak up, and while it would have been better to figure out a way to be more assertive earlier, that didn't happen.

Give yourself some credit, you obviously care about your wife, you obviously felt too uncomfortable to hurt her lovers feelings by being honest, so before all this went down you did at one point care about her feelings.

You have to realize what it's like to be close friends with someone, spending as much time as she did with you guys, to suddenly be told that you really didn't want her around, is some serious shit to deal with. That whole time you didn't speak up, and all that frustration that has slowly built up with you, was unleashed all at once. It really does a number on a person's psyche to think back over all the time she thought you genuinely enjoyed her company, but she was oblivious. Not picking up on it at the time, makes you question everything you thought you knew, it makes you suspicious of everyone's intentions and what they may be hiding. It makes life a living hell.

I know you have had enough of it, the frustration you have felt for so long, the never feeling like you could ever get a moment to yourself with your family, was also a living hell

let yourself deal with all that you haven't dealt with, and then make decisions. This forum probably isn't the best place to find support, but for God's sake do NOT let things people comment here cause you to lash out, and posture for an ugly divorce

Please remember that you love your wife, or at least there was a time when you did. And so when you love someone, and you honestly understand what it means to Love someone, you will not be able to follow through with anything to hurt that person in anyway, no matter what they do, no matter if they totally screwed you over, because that's what Love is, the people who can follow through and actually do something to harm another, even emotionally, they don't really understand what means to love.

And you do understand what Love means

And it hurts, it hurts bad, and from what I have read nobody has intentionally or maliciously screwed anybody over. Especially not your wife, it sounds like she fell in love, due to a situation that you took part in with full knowledge.

I know it feels like her girlfriend is trying to hurt you, it honestly doesn't sound like she is just trying to spite you. I don't want to trash talk you and add fuel to fire, but it sounds like you and her girlfriend really do understand what it means to love someone, and because you both really do love your wife, you won't hurt each other.

And you will both realize what that means, to be honest and not do anything to hurt a person you don't love, because you both understand what it means to have ever truly loved someone. I am sorry you have found yourself in the position to really test your understanding of love, but you do know what it means. And so does her girlfriend.

So regardless of whether your marriage actually gets stronger for this, or you get a divorce, you all know love well enough to surrender

because I promise you even if you are the only one to surrender, it will turn out better no matter what happens. And if two of you surrender, the pain will not feel unbearable, regardless of whether or not you salvage your marriage

If all three of you surrender, I promise you, you will all recognize who you are, and where you live

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 03-12-2013 at 01:38 PM. Reason: typos
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  #135  
Old 03-12-2013, 01:45 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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I hear you. I still care about my wife's feelings, but I can't live my life to suit her needs anymore. I have to live for me. Do I love her? That's up for debate. That love is hidden right now. If I tell her I love her, it would be a formality. Coming out of my mouth but not from my heart.

As far as Snowflake, I can't really acknowledge how she feels. She's not in my thoughts at all. I only acknowledge her when something pertaining to her comes up or when somebody mentions her. That lasts all of a few minutes. Then she goes back that nonexistent place in my thoughts. Give me some more time and the chance for a glimpse of compassion to rear its head. Then, maybe I might feel something. I don't resent her. In order to resent her, that would require her to actually be a part of my thoughts outside of this situation.

I understand what love means. Part of loving someone means knowing when to let go, too.
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  #136  
Old 03-12-2013, 02:23 PM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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Right so my husband and I started on other lists. Particularly lists for poly/mono relationships. Now I'm not on those lists anymore, long story. However, we saw way too often where the mono partner just stopped. It wasn't a gradual thing. They tried, they put in the effort, they really did want it to work. Then one day, they just realized it wouldn't. That they couldn't do it. So there would be a simple goodbye message. "Hey guys, can't do this anymore. Thank you for your support."

So I get it, and it's valid. Just as someone wakes up and decides poly is for them and they just can NOT wait any more to express that part of their life. I'm not arguing that you leaving is not valid.

What I'm concerned about is the lack of concern for the kids. Now you wrap it up in concern. "Oh we had a deal, it's for their education, I dont' want them exposed, blah blah blah."

I could argue with you that you don't have the right to say they can't be around your wife's lovers. Just as she doesn't have the right to say that should you marry again your new wife isn't allowed near the kids. That's so just a drop in the bucket.

Kids, smarter than you think. Pick up more than you think. I won't go into details of the messiness my parents put me through. Let me just say, I DON"T REMEMBER. I'm 37 and I have maybe three memories of my childhood. Before age 13, that's it. I've been in and out of hospitals, on medication. Did you know, that mental illness can be CREATED. It screws with the brain chemistry, these events, and there's not really a way back. Three months old, thirteen, it affects kids. Babies, of only a few weeks have been shown to not cry, even when in pain, because of already learning that to do so is to meet with dire consequences.

So yeah, the kids are probably too young, they'll forget all about this mess and this anger and frustration you have and are refusing to put a leash on. Yay for forgetting?

Hubby and I have had those talks. That should it just get to the point that we can't do it. For any reason, poly, my mental illness, whatever, we do NOT let our anger, or hate, or hurt from or for each other affect what we do with the kids. We do whats' best for them. We AGREE on what's best for them. He doesn't want to be some part time dad where he only gets weekends or visitation any more than I want to be a part time mom. But guess what, we are adults, we can handle dealing with the consequences of our decisions.

And we can be adult enough to realize as much as it hurts, as much as it's 'unfair', it's better that it hurts US, is unfair to US than to our kids.

So let go, let go of your wife if you have to, know it hurts, find a place and time to let that hurt out. THEN make decisions WITH your wife on those kids. Trust me, it might not happen until they are adults on their own but those things they will 'forget' because theya re so young, will come back, either in memory or in learning about it from a third party and saying "I did the best I could with what I had." will be of no comfort at all.
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  #137  
Old 03-12-2013, 02:45 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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I should just take divorce off the table until they're 18 and away at university. I can't do that. That's like another spin on staying for the kids.

I could see if I was the one calling all the shots as far as their education and their futures, but I wasn't. I could see if I had went behind her back and decided we would move and there was nothing she could say, but I didn't. Everything was discussed between us. We put a year's worth of research into it. In the end, we mutually agreed on a school that would best suit our child's personality and her needs. If she had any doubts, she should have voiced them before we had set everything in motion to move. Don't change now because somebody you view as being part of the family (her girlfriend) has doubts when in reality nobody asked her to uproot her life. That's my issue with that situation.

My kids come first in everything. That's the biggest driving force for me even trying to find a solution that would allow the family to stay together. If my wife and I didn't have kids, I probably wouldn't be there now. I'd still try to save my marriage, but I wouldn't have two little people who I'm responsible and accountable for. I owe it to them, if no one else, to put forth effort to attempt to save this. I have to take their feelings into account and remember what's best for them. Mummy and daddy arguing or not even talking to each other? That wasn't what was best for them, so I removed myself from the situation to give everyone some breathing room.
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  #138  
Old 03-12-2013, 03:08 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Matt, I'm not trying to get rid of you, but why are you still posting here? I mean, what are the reasons you continue to come here and post, post advice in other threads that the person needs to slow down, etc.

Why do you not take your own advice as you gave to someone else in another thread?

What is the reason you keep posting here if you are so sure you know what's best for you and are ready to "leap" into action?

I'm glad for you that you figured out what you want and have a plan in place to achieve it. The reason I had a problem with your situation at first was because you were saying certain things when you meant the exact opposite, expecting people to KNOW that you meant the exact opposite of what you said. It seems you have stopped that and can move forward now.

But I will ask again - if you are sure of everything now, what is the reason you continue to post here? If you DO NOT WANT TO BE IN A POLY RELATIONSHIP (ELEVENTY!!11~), then why are you on a forum for people in poly relationships, or for mono people who want to work it out with their poly partner? I am not telling you you shouldn't, I just want to know what your reasons are, and am certain other people are wondering the same thing.. I have seen people ask this a couple times already and you have ignored the question (or maybe I overlooked it, if so, would you link to the answer? I get people mixed up sometimes).
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  #139  
Old 03-12-2013, 03:22 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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BoringGuy, I am responding to people. That is all. I have taken my own advice. This is my last post. Wish you all well in everything you do. Bye.
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  #140  
Old 03-12-2013, 03:22 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Well, there was a lot of initial "heat of the moment" stuff to get through. He did take a time out to cool off and be with his thoughts and feelings. That left him in a different place in his willingness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
I'm thinking entirely different now and searching for solutions that won't make everybody miserable in the end.

Now, that I have started the process of doing that, I can think of things that need to be addressed in therapy and find ways of communicating them the right way to my wife. I can't force her to be receptive or make any changes, but I can try to come up with ideas and solutions that aren't unilateral. That's the best that I can do from my end.
So me it seems that while he's still sorting things out for therapy he could be here in his wants, needs and limits:
  • I cannot be in a triad.
  • My wife and I have different ideas about how involved her GF could be in our marriage. My wife wants an "interdependent model" with her very involved in our parenting life, married life, etc.
  • I want something more "separate but equal." I do not want to be married to her GF too -- in spirit or otherwise. I want time apart from GF and some boundaries more clearly drawn.
  • I am willing to see a counselor.
  • I am willing to talk about other options. The biggest driving force for me even trying to find a solution that would allow the family to stay together in a shape that meets most people's needs and respect their limits is the kids.
  • If no solution could be found, I am willing to think about a divorce to remove myself from the equation. Even for the children, I cannot stay in a place that breeds more resentment or fighting or unhappiness.

I could be wrong in how I perceive that. It's been a lot to read and keep up with.

But I do hope they keep on moving it forward though and if they need to air out in the thread during the process... go ahead. Air out. Do what you gotta do.

Hang in there -- Matt, FoL, and Snowflake. Whatever the outcome shape needs to be to bring each of you inner peace again, I keep hoping for that healing for all of you. Nobody deserves endless suffering.

GL!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 03-12-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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