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  #111  
Old 03-10-2013, 04:58 AM
bella123456 bella123456 is offline
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Matt, it's completely ok to leave a relationship if it's not bringing you happiness.
If there is an aspect of your partner's personality that you simply can not accept, you are making the right decision.

Also, on her side... It's not nice or healthy to be in a relationship with someone who can not accept that very special part.

There's no point saying "I love every part of you except that big bit which is so very integral to who you are"

Icky for all. You both deserve unconditional love. If you can't give each other unconditional love and the cost of continuing to try is so painful.... You can stop.

That's a perfectly valid decision to make. Don't beat yourself up about it, if that's the decision you are making.. Be kind to yourself and accept that's the path you are choosing.

It's ok !
Having been through a break up that involves children, if you continue down the path you are choosing I hope you can pick up harm minimization sooner, rather than later.

If you can manage it... A few days of peace and self love would put you in a good position to manage the difficult times ahead.

Concentrate on basics if you can - sleep and a good diet.
Constant stress, lack of sleep etc... That stuff always reduces our capacity to make good decisions.

Get yourself first into a position where you are most able to make good decisions.

Wishing you all the best.
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  #112  
Old 03-10-2013, 05:15 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
People should not use the word "fine" for so many different things . . . When you say you're "fine" but you really mean "leave me alone", you send a message that messes with a person's perception of reality.
There's a saying in 12-Step programs...

When someone says "I'm fine," what they really mean is that they are:
Fucked-up,
Insecure,
Neurotic, and
Emotional.
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"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein
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  #113  
Old 03-10-2013, 05:38 AM
Matt Matt is offline
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Originally Posted by bella123456 View Post
Matt, it's completely ok to leave a relationship if it's not bringing you happiness.
If there is an aspect of your partner's personality that you simply can not accept, you are making the right decision.

Also, on her side... It's not nice or healthy to be in a relationship with someone who can not accept that very special part.

There's no point saying "I love every part of you except that big bit which is so very integral to who you are"

Icky for all. You both deserve unconditional love. If you can't give each other unconditional love and the cost of continuing to try is so painful.... You can stop.

That's a perfectly valid decision to make. Don't beat yourself up about it, if that's the decision you are making.. Be kind to yourself and accept that's the path you are choosing.

It's ok !
Having been through a break up that involves children, if you continue down the path you are choosing I hope you can pick up harm minimization sooner, rather than later.

If you can manage it... A few days of peace and self love would put you in a good position to manage the difficult times ahead.

Concentrate on basics if you can - sleep and a good diet.
Constant stress, lack of sleep etc... That stuff always reduces our capacity to make good decisions.

Get yourself first into a position where you are most able to make good decisions.

Wishing you all the best.
I'm not beating myself up about it. I don't need a few days, a few months, breathing space, or anything. Time isn't going to change this one. Does that mean I should just say forget this counseling thing? No, but if it's worth having, it must be worth fighting for right? Well, that's what they say. I'm not sure I'm in it to fight. I might renege before a fight even begins.

No part of it's going to be easy. I think the Mrs. is pissed off and like I'm taking the choice away from her. Nope because if asked to choose, I guarantee she would be pissed and resentful. Why should she have to choose? If I want to take the guess work out and leave her with just one option, that's my choice. She can't have her cake and eat it, too with this one. Live your life and do you. I just won't be part of it if that's what I decide is for the best. Like I told her, "I'm contemplating cutting myself out of your idea of a family and doing what I need to do before I start hating you."

No part of the custody situation will be easy. Especially seeing as how we have to different visions regarding the future of our children. I can't control that she's suddenly changed her mind about plans that have been in motion. It's not about her anymore, though.

I love her, but I have to love me more now. I'm taking care of myself. I'm away from her right now, and I am taking an extended private holiday. I need to be by myself and alone with my thoughts.

Last edited by Matt; 03-10-2013 at 05:43 AM.
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  #114  
Old 03-10-2013, 05:39 AM
Matt Matt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
There's a saying in 12-Step programs...

When someone says "I'm fine," what they really mean is that they are:
Fucked-up,
Insecure,
Neurotic, and
Emotional.
No doubt.
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  #115  
Old 03-10-2013, 02:54 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Well, Matt, since you're still here and talking...

You've finally let you true emotions surface. 12 years is a long time to hold them in! Even 10, if NRE pushed your discomfort with FoL's poly identity (I'd call it identity, not "lifestyle") underground for a while. I'm American but I understand repressing emotions is a long held English tradition. So, that might have been quite hard to overcome. Maybe having sex with Si a few times triggered the opening. Ironic.

So, in a "mouse that roared" kind of way, you've opened the floodgates and a decade of resentment has surfaced. Now you're thinking in black and white terms. Burning all bridges. Cutting Si completely out of your lives, or divorce, ugly custody battles, 12 years of investment down the drain.

I find it almost funny you're saying you "might" be hurting FoL. I am sure she's devastated. She's said here she's barely holding on.

There is huge room for COMPROMISE here. In fact, healthy marriages are full of compromise. FoL and Si could never compromise on time management before because you deceitfully acted like you were fine with Si being around as much as she was. Now that they (finally) know you want more one on one time with FoL, and more family time without Si around, as adults, y'all COULD compromise. Other poly families here can and do do this, every day.

It hasn't occurred to you that if Si came around LESS, or if FoL took the kids and went to spend the night at Si's place (just because she is a "homebody" does not mean she couldn't COMPROMISE in this way), you'd have free time and less of Si, and your wife wouldnt have to choose between her 2 loves? Why so black and white, why so all or nothing? Time management is one of the first topics in Poly 101. Heck, even if you met and married a mono woman, you'd still need to compromise in some ways. Why not start now, with your love, your wife, the mother of your children?

I hope this idea is discussed in therapy (you may not like it, but boy... it's needed here), once the venting is out of the way.

I am not asking you to be the only one compromising. FoL and Si, maybe they arent comfortable with spending less time together. You're seeming to suggest that, but I wonder if it's really true.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #116  
Old 03-10-2013, 06:40 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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I'm taking time away. Almost a month to myself. I'll be elsewhere, and my wife and children will be in London. I don't want to be away from my kids, but I'm in no shape to be around. It's not healthy for them to be exposed to any existing issues, so if it means taking a breather, it's what it is. If their mother and I aren't even talking, that's not good for them. I know that I have to take care of myself. Whether together or apart, we have to be strong for our children because they need us and depend on us.

NRE. Compersion. All just terms. Some would say I never experienced compersion. That overwhelming joy of her finding love and happiness with somebody else? I must have missed that boat and never looked for another chance to get on it. Blinded by love, passive aggressive, and so on? Alright. Add them to the list. Love makes you do stupid and questionable things. Love makes you accept things you wouldn't under normal circumstances. Especially at its purest and newest form.

My wife and I aren't exactly on the best of terms right now, and I'm not forcing her to talk to me. If she's hurting, I can only say I'm sorry. I don't enjoy hurting her. I don't want to see her unhappy or crying. It's not bringing me pleasure or some sick joy. I do know she's pissed off about me being gone right now. Don't tell me to take some time to myself and then get mad when I take you up on it. Who does that? I know it's Mothering Day, and I hate that my departure coincided with one of her special days. On the other hand. Why should she have to split her day up and celebrate it separately? Spend half with me and the kids and then the other half with her girlfriend and the kids? I'm pretty sure she wanted to and probably did spend a portion or all of the day with her girlfriend seeing as how she's a co-parent and second mother.

It's black and white because there's nothing else until my darling dearest wife accepts that the two relationships should have been two entirely different ones. She's not willing to accept that. Her girlfriend and I are two different people. Not one in the same. She has to accept the fact that if our marriage is something she values, she has to treat it like it's something special and unique on its own. It's like having a flawless diamond and not acknowledging its value. Do you really need the white gold or platinum band or sidestones for it to shine and stand out? Those stones enhance it, but they are not the focal point or even needed because a solitaire can standalone. I had to put it in terms that she could understand. She has to accept that our marriage can survive and thrive on its own without her other relationship being part of it. Until that is acknowledged, black and white it is.

Her girlfriend shouldn't have to be part of every thing we do or every decision that's made. Why is she part of our marriage? Should I just accept that, too? No two relationships are the same and no two relationships grow at the same rate, and what she has done is combine our marriage and her relationship. I'm surprised she didn't consult with her girlfriend before we decided to renovate our home. Then again, she probably did. She runs everything by her because she is so intertwined, involved, and enmeshed in our marriage. I might as well buy her ring, propose, and suggest that she change her last name to ours. That would probably send my wife to the moon. The relationships have always been separate in my brain.

And the custody issue? Here's why it is going to be a clash. We discussed it. We had already agreed on where our daughter would go to school. We went through the months long admissions process, interviews, tours of the school, and now, she has been accepted and slated to begin in September. We were preparing to move over the summer. Everything was set until her girlfriend recently decided, "I'm not sure if I want to move." Then, my wife's second thoughts kicked into play. Why the hell should everything have to stop because her girlfriend doesn't want to move? How is that fair to our children? Am I mad about that, too? Yes. This just came out. I remembered why everything has to stop. My wife views her as being part of this marriage and family, so we have to stop whatever was planned and possibly make new arrangements because she's an integral part of her--not us. Would it even matter if I put my foot down on this issue? Where is the compromise in this? The girlfriend could stay where she is, and then her "family" would move away. Some way I'd be the bad guy in that, too.

It wouldn't matter if she came around less. She's not around me at all right now, and what has that solved? My wife and I aren't talking. We're growing apart. She's pissed off at me.

If we can't come to some type of agreement that doesn't involve one or both being miserable, I would simply be "removing" the option for her to have to choose and making the decision to do what's best for me. I don't necessarily believe in divorce. I believe in fighting for what you want, but sometimes you have to pick your battles. She's poly. She doesn't have to give that up, and I'm not expecting her to. Isn't that what poly people are always saying? You don't put somebody in the position to have to choose or change themselves, but you always have the option to leave if it's not working for you. I don't think I'm being unreasonable. If I'm not happy, I have the right to seek happiness elsewhere and find somebody who can give me what I need. Just like she has the right to find somebody who can be what she needs.

We're still going to continue the sessions with the shrink. I'll be participating remotely. Perhaps this time away will make me rethink some things. Hey. I'm aspiring to be open minded and partially receptive.

Last edited by Matt; 03-10-2013 at 06:47 PM.
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  #117  
Old 03-10-2013, 07:44 PM
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YouAreHere YouAreHere is offline
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Okay... So it's not just the "Si is around all the time" and "I can't do the poly" thing, then, that brought you to your breaking point? It's the "my wife and I have discussed and agreed upon what was best for our children and now Si has put that on hold" thing as well?

Honestly, I can better understand your "butt out" mentality on your second point rather than your first. Seems to me, then, that the move had been discussed with everyone, that you and FoL made decisions with respect to your kids, and Si balked against that decision, tossing your actual plans up in the air. Do you feel like you have been undermined as a parent (or as a partner in this marriage in general?) by someone you don't feel is a co-parent or co-partner?

Yes, please do continue the remote counseling and continue to try to get at the root of your anger - if one of the roots is feeling undermined - that any decisions you made can be undercut by a word and not supported - then maybe you should work on that to start?
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  #118  
Old 03-10-2013, 08:15 PM
Matt Matt is offline
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Okay... So it's not just the "Si is around all the time" and "I can't do the poly" thing, then, that brought you to your breaking point? It's the "my wife and I have discussed and agreed upon what was best for our children and now Si has put that on hold" thing as well?

Honestly, I can better understand your "butt out" mentality on your second point rather than your first. Seems to me, then, that the move had been discussed with everyone, that you and FoL made decisions with respect to your kids, and Si balked against that decision, tossing your actual plans up in the air. Do you feel like you have been undermined as a parent (or as a partner in this marriage in general?) by someone you don't feel is a co-parent or co-partner?

Yes, please do continue the remote counseling and continue to try to get at the root of your anger - if one of the roots is feeling undermined - that any decisions you made can be undercut by a word and not supported - then maybe you should work on that to start?
It just added fuel to a fire that was already going strong. That tidbit emerged during and in totality after the argument had occurred. It was what lead to me needing time away before I did get upset and run the risk of things becoming even more intense.

I couldn't be upset about that before because it wasn't known. I know now, and it's an issue that must be addressed and will be addressed. I made the fateful decision to back away from other issues, but I will not tolerate being undermined.

We will decide what's best and not just one person pulling the strings like a puppet master.
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  #119  
Old 03-11-2013, 05:53 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I'm not beating myself up about it.
Good. I am glad. You have the right to meet your own needs.

Quote:
I don't need a few days, a few months, breathing space, or anything. Time isn't going to change this one.
That's not what I suggest the space for.

If the decision you are at is you removing yourself from a situation where you cannot thrive, because you are no longer willing? You have that right. If you are looking at divorce then... the space/time is to let the other people digest the news and cool off and consult with their professionals --lawyer, mediators, etc. Ditto you -- get your thoughts together for proceedings with your professionals.

Hopefully so all can be able to move through the divorce proceedings in a calmer zone as a result of a break and not be all "hot head" about it. Divorce proceedings sometimes are extremely difficult because people's emotions are running high.

You are already away taking a holiday so -- good for you for meeting your own needs. You have to put your oxygen mask on first.

However it is you all arrived at this place, however it is that all players helped create the situation, it is clear you all cannot STAY here if various players are just NO LONGER WILLING. (The husband, maybe the GF too from the sound of it.)

Not good for any of you to stay stuck there.

So could get on with the business of disbanding then. As quick, clean, and fair as possible. Get everyone to the healing place faster.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 03-11-2013 at 08:45 PM.
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  #120  
Old 03-11-2013, 05:54 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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I'm the type of person who addresses whatever it is and leaps into action right then. I'm not for the talking game and let's find a happy-go-lucky resolution
My husband has a very bad habit of doing this also. If I brought up a problem, he would just assume that means I need him to fix it. So he would "fix it" without ever discussing it with me and then get all bent out of shape because I would question his efforts. Basically he took our PARTNERSHIP and said the hell with it. It was going to be fixed his way and my opinions be dammed. After years of this, I stopped asking for his input on anything.

Quote:
It's not something from childhood. It's something that started later in life. I used to be pretty selfless and went along with quite a bit. It starts with one thing. Usually my wife's non-verbal insistence. A look or whatever it is she does to suggest things without saying them out loud. "No, I don't mind that you're poly. I guess I can live with it because I love you, and loving you means accepting or learning to live with certain things." You know what that turned into? This. I guess I really couldn't live it, and this was this moment for it to come out. "I guess I don't mind if she's part of doctor's appointments, if it's that important to you." This turned into being in the delivery room, being a co-parent, and the oldest calling her mom #2, so I can't severe that relationship. I could, but it would be traumatic for her. "I guess I don't mind if she joins us on this particular vacation, if it would make you happy." See the trend? A good old fashioned psychological ploy called emotional bulldozing. You want to say no, but due to pressure or duress, you say yes.
This is not poly bulldozing, it pure and simple you being afraid to have anyone think you aren't willing to be accommodating ("Dear, if it makes you happy, then I'm happy" - Can't even tell you how those words make me ill). To most of the outside world you appear "selfless", which is utter bullshit, because deep down you are stewing in resentments and it comes out in years of passive-aggressive behavior. Only to be followed up with massive explosions and dramatic un-yeilding proclamations and resolutions that make you king of the hill instead of part of a partnership. In your mind this is justified, because you spent years as a martyr for the cause and now you want to turn the tables, because you feel you are a victim of a situation you helped create.

This too is my husband and he will also deny that his passive-aggressiveness has anything to do with his childhood, then again he likes to deny he is passive-aggressive at all, but after arguing with the therapist, he finally accepted it to some point. However, looking back at his parents, his sister and brother, I see the correlation clear as day. Having contrary opinions to his parents and showing anger was definitely frowned upon, so it all comes out in passive-aggressive ways instead. There's obviously much more that fueled it, but he gains great satisfaction, especially to those outside the family, to make it "appear" that he is easy going and selfless. All the while he is harboring years worth of resentments.

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I'm trying in therapy. I don't like therapists. I'm trying to be open minded. I can't say that it's going to help this situation, but I'm giving effort. That's all I can do.
Good for you. I don't like therapist either, most of the time, but when my marriage had no other option, I was the one who finally forced the issue. "You show up (I don't care what else you have going on - cancel it), or I will file divorce papers the following day." It helped. The minute I thought we would be okay without the counselor, we crashed and burned again. It was a long process with a lot of ups and downs, but worth it.

When you have been neglecting yourself for years because it was what you thought you were "supposed" to do for the good of the family (wife, kids, marriage, etc), everything you thought you were "protecting" suffers.

Last edited by SNeacail; 03-11-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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