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  #121  
Old 01-06-2010, 06:05 AM
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Ceoli, you voiced many of my views when I could not while at work. I would only end up repeating much of what you said so I won't backtrack too much.

LovingRadiance, point out where I said that poly parents should make one choice above another or that you had to declare yourself polyamorous.


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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I'm sorry, I don't understand who you are directing this too, me? and what you mean by this.... could you please clarify for us? Perhaps a definition of sex positive and negative? Your version?
My statements are based on comments from this thread and from others within this forum. From discussions where it is insisted that relationships where sex is prevalent cannot be considered polyamorous (sexless is fine and dandy) to discussions such as this where it is rationalized that accepting a sex-negative culture and disassociating from parts of the poly community who do not, is acceptable.

Simplest concisest definition. It is broader than the below.

Sex positive is accepting of sexuality and expressing it openly. Sex positive education would include teaching safe sex.
Sex negative is moralizing sex to be a vice. Something shameful. Something to be avoided or hidden or suppressed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
you are right, it is a choice. Did you hear when I said that I didn't like making that choice? Just wondering, cause I feel a little like you are telling me I am not a good parent. Are you directing this towards me? If you aren't, perhaps you could use a different way of stating your opinion that doesn't come across as judgmental?
My words were pretty exact. Where is the judgment and the statement that you or others who make this choice are not good parents? Did it seem a judgment because I said I would not make the same choice? It is a choice. I do find moralizing it as what makes a good parent questionable. What kind of parent is the one who makes a differing choice?

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
This seems very vague to me and again feels like it is in some way directed at me. Do you think I am clinging to ideals? Do you think I am hiding from reality? Do you think I am not associating with people as a way of hiding? to make it okay? If so, how? I don't get where you are getting this from.... I take this all personally and perhaps that is not where I should take it, but I do, so correct me if I am wrong in that.... If you are talking about people in general, some people in general, who are not writing on here, but our society/culture/country... then I would be more willing to engage in that kind of conversation as I think you are right in a lot of cases. I just need some clarification first.
My thoughts were not only directed at you. There are behaviors and attitudes in our society/culture/country which are replicated here on a smaller scale. Normative means what is generally accepted as normal and the morally right way to do things.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Yes and I was one of those queers fighting for what queer women take for granted now. My mother was one of those women, with her kids on each side of her. Ironic now isn't it that 30 years later we can't even talk to each other.... yet she raised the person I am, similar values coming head to head. I would go on and clarify what my childhood was like as the daughter of a women's rights activist, but I feel I have put myself out there too much and that it will only cause more judgment from you at this point.
Again what judgment are you referring to? Is simply not thinking as you do being judgmental?
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Again, directed towards me? Do you think I am blaming oppressed people for my oppression? Do you think I am trying to "pass" with everyone in my life? Yes, I go for passing sometimes... why? because that is how I have chosen to quietly make change that has worked in the past.... after I stopped yelling at people and being angry and frustrated about the world. I just shut people out with this approach, it didn't work for me.
My statement was that there is a taught mindset that oppression is the fault of those who are oppressed. Poly rights were spoken of in another thread and it was pointedly stated that oppression wasn't being spoken of. When questioned, the response was that a victim mentality was not the reality of those seeking poly rights and how sad it must be to have that reality. Insulting. Born of a privileged perspective. Victims don't choose victimhood yet when they do fight against it, calling an egg an egg (oppression and naming their oppressors whether people or structures) they are told they are wallowing in victimhood. So hey, if having one's kids taken away is not being victimized and treated unjustly, if that isn't oppression I don't know what is. Maybe it's a definitional problem No I think it's just a matter of disassociation again.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I have no idea what you just said here.... say again? Maybe my response above was enough? In a nutshell, I disagree with your last statement.... you sound like my anarchist friend... he talks like you do. Do you identify as an anarchist?
The pretenders don't usually contribute to the change which enables them to stop pretending. Not unless we're talking about espionage.

What is anarchy to you and what about my statements seem similar to his statements?

~Raven~
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  #122  
Old 01-06-2010, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Sorry to disagree my friend, but I think it is better to distance ourselves from the vagueness and large umbrella that certain terms cover. I am no activist but I am trained in other areas to achieve goals. I think tactically as a small unit to protect my own, not in a broader sense of furthering a cause or movement if such a thing exists. From that perspective it is best to simplify and reduce weight or weaknesses to better my position. Therefore I stick to hard and fast definitions and descriptions. Sorry to not be a part of something bigger..not my way.
I am an activist, and out in lots of places as poly and as a poly activist...which threatened to seriously complicate a custody dispute I found myself connected to not so long ago. Because of my work with UUs for Polyamory Awareness, I was pretty well tied to UUPA's large umbrella definition, presented it to the lawyer, and stood by that defintion. I had made my decision about being out years ago; there was no running and hiding at that point.

Standing tall, confidently, and unashamedly works wonders. Nobody expects it. It confuses them.

At the same time, this was my decision and my family's decision. Each person and each family has to make their own decision, which is competely dependent on their own circumstances. Some of us can be out, and some of us can't risk it. No one else can judge.

Those of us who do choose to be out will make the world a little safer for everyone else every time we are visible. And things keep getting a little bit better.
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  #123  
Old 01-06-2010, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
Like I said…radical interpretation. If I made any assumption at all, it is that you are not a parent…yet, and the part of your post I was responding to was simply your assertion that you would not make a certain decision if you were a parent.
Indeed it is an assumption. At least quote what was said and not what you created. I simply stated it is not a decision I would make.

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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
Not sure why this was a necessary comment...I made no such assumptions.
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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
In response to the assertion (from a currently non-parent) that they would (as a prediction in the present, about their own actions in the future) not make a certain decision if they were a parent...
You made an assumption as to the role children have in my life and the choices I have made in regards to them. Unless you're secretly my mother and can also tell me the color of the onesy I wore that night when I was 18 months, you have no knowledge of this and can only presume.


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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
To paraphrase, I merely indicated the possibility that their decisions (any decisions, and the way they make them) might...operative word might…be very different to those that they would make now.
It was not a “suggestion”…it was just a suggestion. It’s a subset of the larger suggestion that I would make to anyone who considers themselves conscious and sentient…to go back to re-evaluate and reassess from time to time. Their decisions, their assumptions, everything about themselves. People change over time.
So you made an unnecessary universal statement? Just to make it. No purpose. People change. Like "fire burns." I see.
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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
Age, life events, education, relationships, society, our own development, all serve to affect us over time. Some events can change us in fundamental and significant ways. Puberty, developing the ability to think in abstract ways, passing into adulthood, the list is extensive. I have a hard time imagining anyone going too far wrong by doing some reassessments, soul-searching or what have you from time to time.
People change.
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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
Becoming a parent is one of those experiences capable of such change.
Similar to puberty, it can involve not only physical changes, but psychological, and physiological changes. There are chemical and hormonal devices to bond children to their parents, particularly the mothers. These devices, these bonds are natural, instinctual, base, a product of our evolution, and they sometimes defy the rational mind. Yes, parents can be a little crazy…especially the mothers. There is a reason you don’t mess with a bear cub in the mountains...because Mother Bear is a force of nature not to be trifled with, and fundamentally humans don’t differ a huge amount in this respect.
No mention of parents who are not biological? What of non-normative families where the parents are not there and it is other relatives who raise the children. Adoptive parents? And extended families where childcare is shared. Where do they fit? How do they bond?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
As far as I’m concerned, this is one of those experiences that cannot be fully known to those who have not experienced it. It can change people in very fundamental ways. The way in which decisions are made can be significantly different than before hand. As such I believe it would be virtually impossible for anyone (short of inventing clairvoyance or Vulcan mind melds) to truly know or predict exactly what decisions they would make after such an event. I know I’ve made this transition, and there are many areas where my thinking and mindset have shifted dramatically. There are areas where my thoughts with regards to my children do not fit in the realm or reason, logic, or rational thought. And even while I understand that I have these thoughts as a parent, I also know that my wife’s experience is different on a level which I can never understand as another mother could.

This is what I’m talking about when I say that non-parents may be very surprised what decisions they will make and why, if and when they become parents. And that was all I was saying. It’s an experience like puberty, like losing a loved one to sickness, or another loved one to violence, being in a combat zone, being stranded in a survival situation, growing up on the streets of NYC...many others. These are situations where no one can be fully sure of their reactions until they are faced with it. They can prepare for it as much as they want, think it through, plan, read, research, whatever...but in the face of reality, the actual actions can…operative word can…be very different than the plan.
People change. Yes we know this. No points to be made at all it seems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
Raven, If you believe that, and end up living that reality, more power to you. Seriously...no where did I say that decision would be different. If between your own will, your role models, and your own experience as a parent you decide to carry on your course in spite of the obstacles you would get nothing from me other than respect and admiration for that. The same respect and admiration I would give LR or RP for being true to themselves as parents.

However, I would bet that if you became a parent, …active, raising the kid in your home 24/7 parent, something about the way you make decisions will change. Seriously…if you make it to the kid’s 5th birthday, do your soul searching, and can’t find any decision you’ve made as a mother that you wouldn’t have made, or evaluated differently when you were not a mother, I’ll buy you dinner.
ImaginaryIllusion, interesting post saying many things that are generally known yet not addressing the topic of the rationale behind these choices that is not exclusive to poly parents. What are non-parents Imaginary? Do you wish to exclude them from discussions of children within poly situations?

~Raven~
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 01-06-2010 at 07:31 AM.
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  #124  
Old 01-06-2010, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
Along those lines, if it sometimes feels that parents react badly to the suggestion that they should make decisions more like you, or that they donít think you understand, some of that may be a result of a not so delicate approach...but in a few places like this thread, I think some of it comes from a place of envy. Just like some people grow up and get into the working world and long to be back in school again sometimes, so do some parents sometimes long to be able to make decisions for only themselves. To be able to enjoy a former life they might only vaguely remember where there was no responsibility, no babysitters, no minivan, or clothes covered in dried up pabulum.

As opposed to your suggestion, no one here suggested what anyone else should do in regards to their children. If that is what some decided to hear, how they decided to interpret it, there is nothing we can do about that.

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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
Itís not that non-parents donít have something to contributeÖand I would never assume that they have nothing to contribute just because they arenít a parent. I had plenty of good ideas before I was a parent that are still good ideas after too. However, having been a non-parent, while I believe itís possible, itís few and far between the individuals who are not parents who would truly understand the full mindset, and decision making of those who areÖand that can exist across time as well. The mind as a non-parent may be very different than a few short months later when they become a parent, and that one is different again than the mind after another couple years or raising a child.

The full mindset... Is there only one Imaginary? The one parent full mindset? The decision making of those who are parents.
Do parents differ at all Imaginary? Or is it the same mechanism?

Hmm, so with all these general statements I suppose it wouldn't hurt to add a few more.

Once one becomes a parent, they may not change.

Once one becomes a parent, they may change, they may become more radical than they were.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
In this particular context of addressing non-parents (and I would gladly remodel this for dozens of contextsÖitís that versatile), I would simply paraphrase it to say, [I]who do you think understands the experiences and challenges of being a parent? You, or those who have time-in as parents?
Ok, I see what this is. An elaborate thread hijack.

Do you have an opinion on disassociating sex from polyamory and/or individuals disassociating from polyamory because it encompasses the more sexual aspects as well as the less sexual? Do you think it's an issue? Do you think it may effect the success of campaigns to gain poly rights?

Any thoughts?

~Raven~
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  #125  
Old 01-06-2010, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by jasminegld View Post
I am an activist, and out in lots of places as poly and as a poly activist...which threatened to seriously complicate a custody dispute I found myself connected to not so long ago. Because of my work with UUs for Polyamory Awareness, I was pretty well tied to UUPA's large umbrella definition, presented it to the lawyer, and stood by that defintion. I had made my decision about being out years ago; there was no running and hiding at that point.

Standing tall, confidently, and unashamedly works wonders. Nobody expects it. It confuses them.

At the same time, this was my decision and my family's decision. Each person and each family has to make their own decision, which is competely dependent on their own circumstances. Some of us can be out, and some of us can't risk it. No one else can judge.

Those of us who do choose to be out will make the world a little safer for everyone else every time we are visible. And things keep getting a little bit better.
Brava. And thank you for sharing that.

~Raven~
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  #126  
Old 01-06-2010, 12:08 PM
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"Calling out" is the phrase that is most often used in multiple communities I've participated in when something is said by someone that creates ripples in others that the original person may not perceive. It has nothing to do with gunfights in my cultural background.
Interesting...I've not seen it used that way before.

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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
To call something out is to bring the issue out into the open so that everyone involved can better understand what happened. I also like to have my ideas challenged and examined. They are worth more to me if they've been examined that way. If it annoys you, then feel free to ignore me.
All fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I find it interesting that you previously mention that I should consider that how I phrase something can raise other people's hackles and speak to how it's my choice to have my hackles raised in this situation. So I'm confused as to which advice should be followed when and by whom. I'm honestly ok with either situation. I explained how what you said was insulting to me, you explained that's not what you meant and we could probably go back and forth about it, but frankly, I don't find it worth my time to do so.
Also fair enough. Both parts of advice can be followed often by everyone. (edit: that is both figuring out what might trigger others to avoid misunderstandings, and to not be triggered)

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I have never spoken to the experiences and challenges of being a parent. I've merely spoken to the effect that certain choices have on other people, despite the fact that they are probably valid choices being made as a parent. I have never said that they should or shouldn't make those choices or presumed to say or know what is best for them.
I know. The only thing I was trying to communicate was a better understanding of parents, and why sometimes leaps into misunderstandings that defy logic happen.
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  #127  
Old 01-06-2010, 04:28 PM
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I am an activist, and out in lots of places as poly and as a poly activist...which threatened to seriously complicate a custody dispute I found myself connected to not so long ago. .
I'm sorry to hear this..did you manage to effectively protect your child? Can you tell us more about it?
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  #128  
Old 01-06-2010, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jasminegld View Post
I am an activist, and out in lots of places as poly and as a poly activist...which threatened to seriously complicate a custody dispute I found myself connected to not so long ago. Because of my work with UUs for Polyamory Awareness, I was pretty well tied to UUPA's large umbrella definition, presented it to the lawyer, and stood by that defintion. I had made my decision about being out years ago; there was no running and hiding at that point.

Standing tall, confidently, and unashamedly works wonders. Nobody expects it. It confuses them.

At the same time, this was my decision and my family's decision. Each person and each family has to make their own decision, which is competely dependent on their own circumstances. Some of us can be out, and some of us can't risk it. No one else can judge.

Those of us who do choose to be out will make the world a little safer for everyone else every time we are visible. And things keep getting a little bit better.
I would love to know more too. Being on the brink of taking my/our "coming out" and flying with it I certainly would like some tips on how and what worked for you.

Apart from coming out to my parents, as I have said in other threads, I have come out to just about everyone else, including on FB, where a lot of my friends are from many years gone by. It feels great and I get a lot of admiration for sticking to where my happiness is. I also get support from Nerdist's (my husband) mum who has opened her arms to Mono and has welcomed him into her side of the family.

My side is very struck and this is a first for me. All my life they have told me they are proud of me and that they think I chose people well in my life. Now they tell me that they are disappointed and have been deceived. They have also told me that I am not very bright all my life and I have felt abandoned by them many times when I make choices that they don't agree with but this is HUGE abandonment and brought up my childhood traumas to the point of my freezing and/or exploding in anger about their reaction to it all....

Do you have any pointers on how to deal with my feelings so as to stand tall and be as confident as you are? Just doing it doesn't work for me when my confidence is low and I am feeling threatened. I have been told to just ignore them, it's their problem, start doing things without them and I know all that, but it hurts like hell right now. We were very close, they live only five houses down and we used to spend time together everyday. We did everything together. I am getting there. There are things I will and can do, intervening in court being one and continuing to make my poly queer presence known at various public events on various levels, including pride and family picnic days at local parks. I just want to feel safe when I am out there. Before I had my child and it was just me I couldn't care less how safe I was, I could handle anything I thought. That has changed and is still something I adjust to, especially where activism goes. Perhaps this is unique to me?

I guess the biggest thing I can do right now is to gather my community around me and rely on them to help me feel stronger. I have made some good friends on here and at home and they have been loving, kind and we support each other to know end. That feels really good. I cherish them for that as I hope they cherish me. It sounds like you have created the same for yourself. I commend you in that and thank you for giving me hope..... please tell us more?
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  #129  
Old 01-06-2010, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
Ceoli, you voiced many of my views when I could not while at work. I would only end up repeating much of what you said so I won't backtrack too much.

LovingRadiance, point out where I said that poly parents should make one choice above another or that you had to declare yourself polyamorous.


My statements are based on comments from this thread and from others within this forum. From discussions where it is insisted that relationships where sex is prevalent cannot be considered polyamorous (sexless is fine and dandy) to discussions such as this where it is rationalized that accepting a sex-negative culture and disassociating from parts of the poly community who do not, is acceptable.

Simplest concisest definition. It is broader than the below.

Sex positive is accepting of sexuality and expressing it openly. Sex positive education would include teaching safe sex.
Sex negative is moralizing sex to be a vice. Something shameful. Something to be avoided or hidden or suppressed.


My words were pretty exact. Where is the judgment and the statement that you or others who make this choice are not good parents? Did it seem a judgment because I said I would not make the same choice? It is a choice. I do find moralizing it as what makes a good parent questionable. What kind of parent is the one who makes a differing choice?

My thoughts were not only directed at you. There are behaviors and attitudes in our society/culture/country which are replicated here on a smaller scale. Normative means what is generally accepted as normal and the morally right way to do things.

Again what judgment are you referring to? Is simply not thinking as you do being judgmental?

My statement was that there is a taught mindset that oppression is the fault of those who are oppressed. Poly rights were spoken of in another thread and it was pointedly stated that oppression wasn't being spoken of. When questioned, the response was that a victim mentality was not the reality of those seeking poly rights and how sad it must be to have that reality. Insulting. Born of a privileged perspective. Victims don't choose victimhood yet when they do fight against it, calling an egg an egg (oppression and naming their oppressors whether people or structures) they are told they are wallowing in victimhood. So hey, if having one's kids taken away is not being victimized and treated unjustly, if that isn't oppression I don't know what is. Maybe it's a definitional problem No I think it's just a matter of disassociation again.


The pretenders don't usually contribute to the change which enables them to stop pretending. Not unless we're talking about espionage.

What is anarchy to you and what about my statements seem similar to his statements?

~Raven~
Thanks for replying Raven, I have some clarification I think. I hear you when you say that you are not directing all your comments to me. I also hear that sometimes you are. Would you be so kind as to actually include my name in those posts so that I can answer directly and comment directly? Perhaps this will help sort out who you disagree with better.

I think a lot of the time the use of language that people use is confusing and comes across as confrontational. I myself try and remember that it is not going to make anyone feel safe if they are spoken to in such a way as to put them on stage so to speak. In my education this can be seen as a form of bullying and is not what I have learned about good group dynamics. I had a manager once that someone brought up on charges in my company because they continually showed up staff in front of their co-workers. Maybe it's the field I work in or the education I have, but I find that I feel more safe when someone couches (I like that word, I'm stealing it ) their words in respect and love. That doesn't mean that you have to agree with me, but that the words of disagreement don't point a finger at me as if to remove me from the group but rather are about curiosity about who I am and interest in my perspective. More along the lines of folding me into the group rather than shutting me out because I am different than others. Does that make sense? It just seems to be better communication to me and as we are all trying to work on being poly and as we pretty much all agree that good communication is a must, then why not we all try and work on thinking of our words in terms of how we would talk to those we love, rather than those we disagree with and are different from. Even when I disagree with my partners I try to practice ways of telling them that come from concern, respect, caring, empathy and love....

I am not trying to point fingers, as but just a thought. thanks for your consideration.
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  #130  
Old 01-06-2010, 08:30 PM
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I would love to know more too. Being on the brink of taking my/our "coming out" and flying with it I certainly would like some tips on how and what worked for you.

Apart from coming out to my parents, as I have said in other threads, I have come out to just about everyone else, including on FB, where a lot of my friends are from many years gone by. It feels great and I get a lot of admiration for sticking to where my happiness is. I also get support from Nerdist's (my husband) mum who has opened her arms to Mono and has welcomed him into her side of the family.

My side is very struck and this is a first for me. All my life they have told me they are proud of me and that they think I chose people well in my life. Now they tell me that they are disappointed and have been deceived. They have also told me that I am not very bright all my life and I have felt abandoned by them many times when I make choices that they don't agree with but this is HUGE abandonment and brought up my childhood traumas to the point of my freezing and/or exploding in anger about their reaction to it all....

Do you have any pointers on how to deal with my feelings so as to stand tall and be as confident as you are? Just doing it doesn't work for me when my confidence is low and I am feeling threatened. I have been told to just ignore them, it's their problem, start doing things without them and I know all that, but it hurts like hell right now. We were very close, they live only five houses down and we used to spend time together everyday. We did everything together. I am getting there. There are things I will and can do, intervening in court being one and continuing to make my poly queer presence known at various public events on various levels, including pride and family picnic days at local parks. I just want to feel safe when I am out there. Before I had my child and it was just me I couldn't care less how safe I was, I could handle anything I thought. That has changed and is still something I adjust to, especially where activism goes. Perhaps this is unique to me?

I guess the biggest thing I can do right now is to gather my community around me and rely on them to help me feel stronger. I have made some good friends on here and at home and they have been loving, kind and we support each other to know end. That feels really good. I cherish them for that as I hope they cherish me. It sounds like you have created the same for yourself. I commend you in that and thank you for giving me hope..... please tell us more?
Sorry I quoted my whole post, I'm on my phone, its just easier.

I was just thinking, this summer when we all went to pride I felt strong and proud and full of confidence. I'm bound and determined to be so again and I will be! Damn it!
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