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  #91  
Old 01-05-2010, 02:00 PM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
I'd suggest those without children go back and re-examine this line of thought if and when you have children. You might find the decisions you will be willing to make will be drastically different that those made as a non-parent/guardian.
I love a "suggestion" like this. The assumption that I would make the same decisions as the ones stated here in the same situation therefore I should re-examine my current stance is an argument lacking any sort of logic and ignoring a myriad of variables. It is quite an arrogant view to think everyone would act like you in the same situation.

Just taking a gander at the women in my family and the history and approach to dealing with adversity... I think not.



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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I have to call this out because this line of thought often sits beneath a lot of misunderstandings. People who don't have children are perfectly capable of understanding the implications, obligations and challenges having a child brings to any dynamic. We may not understand what the actual experience feels like, but we can certainly get a good idea.

I've had poly friends raise their children in open sex positive environments while directly addressing the prejudice attached to such. I've had poly friends raise their children in such a way as to protect themselves and their children from such prejudices. Both choices are valid and both choices carry their own consequence.

But really, it's a bit insulting to to be told in effect "You can't possibly understand because you don't have kids". The subtext of that, whether intended or not, is "Your opinion is not valid in this area".

I've worked closely with children for most of my professional life and I've had that line dropped on me more than once when a parent disagreed with me on something. It's fair enough to disagree and and since it's their kid, I respect that. But respect the fact that not having kids does not automatically mean ignorance of all the issues that go along with having them.
Thank you. Some might be grateful I didn't say it was a "bad" decision. Oooh.

And imagine the assumptions being made in regards to the role children play in my life and my family's life. Amazing really.

~Raven~
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 01-05-2010 at 02:03 PM.
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  #92  
Old 01-05-2010, 02:08 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Default Possible Legal Definition of Poly in Canada soon

As some of you know there is a move a foot by a group in Vancouver BC to challenge Canada’s anti Polygamy law .
I believe it is this week that the issue comes before court.

A call for intervenors was put out with clear requirements:

Qualifications of an Intervenor

If you are a Canadian Resident:
1) currently living with multiple partners in a conjugal (marital or marital-like) relationships, or
2) have engaged in polyamorous relationships either in the past or currently AND have a desire to live with multiple partners in a conjugal (marital or marital-like) relationships in the future
then we ask you to email us.
While we are interested in hearing from ALL people who fit the above criteria, we are especially interested in having at least one female in a MFF (male-female-female) grouping.

So in this case, based on the qualifications desired, the face of polyamory has been somewhat chosen. I would assume the courts will ask for a definition of what polyamory is and it will need to be specific but I could be wrong. In that case it will be the submission of this group that potentially could establish the meaning of the word throughout our courts and country.

So, there is the possibility that at least from a legal sense, polyamory could get its official definition in Canada soon. I believe this would be the first court recognized legal definition of polyamory in the world if it is put forth?
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  #93  
Old 01-05-2010, 02:42 PM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
As some of you know there is a move a foot by a group in Vancouver BC to challenge Canada’s anti Polygamy law .
I believe it is this week that the issue comes before court.

A call for intervenors was put out with clear requirements:

Qualifications of an Intervenor

If you are a Canadian Resident:
1) currently living with multiple partners in a conjugal (marital or marital-like) relationships, or
2) have engaged in polyamorous relationships either in the past or currently AND have a desire to live with multiple partners in a conjugal (marital or marital-like) relationships in the future
then we ask you to email us.
While we are interested in hearing from ALL people who fit the above criteria, we are especially interested in having at least one female in a MFF (male-female-female) grouping.

So in this case, based on the qualifications desired, the face of polyamory has been somewhat chosen. I would assume the courts will ask for a definition of what polyamory is and it will need to be specific but I could be wrong. In that case it will be the submission of this group that potentially could establish the meaning of the word throughout our courts and country.

So, there is the possibility that at least from a legal sense, polyamory could get its official definition in Canada soon. I believe this would be the first court recognized legal definition of polyamory in the world if it is put forth?
I did not see anything in your quote about establishing a definition. A politically active group is seeking Intervenors and they defined what that was, adding a preference as to the type of relationships involved. The preference is also heterosexually biased. They will be representing many poly people in the fight against the anti-polygamy laws which is a positive. But unless they are taking a sample from every form of polyamorous relationship, I don't see how their actions could establish a legal definition which reflected polyamorists without a skew in any one direction.

~Raven~
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~Open up your mind and let me step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
When you know the rules.
It's so easy. All you have to do is fall in love.
Play the game.
Everybody play the game of love. Yeah...~
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  #94  
Old 01-05-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
I did not see anything in your quote about establishing a definition. A politically active group is seeking Intervenors and they defined what that was, adding a preference as to the type of relationships involved. The preference is also heterosexually biased. They will be representing many poly people in the fight against the anti-polygamy laws which is a positive. But unless they are taking a sample from every form of polyamorous relationship, I don't see how their actions could establish a legal definition which reflected polyamorists without a skew in any one direction.

~Raven~
There is behind the scenes stuff occuring (including a possible definition) that everyone will be kept up on as new info comes in, Raven. I simply don't have the info for you right.
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  #95  
Old 01-05-2010, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
The preference is also heterosexually biased.
I did not see anything in the quoted text or any of the articles I have seen to imply that it is heterosexually biased. They talk about "marriage-like" (which in my mind would include same sex, given my understanding of the laws in Canada), and say that they would like at least one MFF configuration.

What have you seen to make you feel that this is hetero-biased?

Quote:
But unless they are taking a sample from every form of polyamorous relationship, I don't see how their actions could establish a legal definition which reflected polyamorists without a skew in any one direction.
I think that would be very very hard to do, since everyone does poly differently (and should) - how do you split the poly community into representative groups in order to pick a sample from every form of polyamorous relationship? Who decides how those groupings should be laid-out? Doesn't defining those groups cause an automatic skewing or over-classification?
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Last edited by CielDuMatin; 01-05-2010 at 04:00 PM.
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  #96  
Old 01-05-2010, 04:05 PM
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It seems to me that somewhat of a division is forming here which if you think about it, is detrimental to what the commonalities are that are shared.
Being a veteran of a few campaigns of activism myself I would only like to remind everyone that all the soldiers are equally important and have a role to play.
We need the bold and brave, willing and capable of standing on the front line and taking the hits. Making all the noise. Creating important distractions. But no less do we need those in a position to "walk softly and carry a big stick". To operate quietly from the inside, pulling out the supporting pins and planting the timed charges.
For the two different groups to be belittling each other, potentially affecting unity, only comes from a place of ego.
Everyone remember we're all on the same team and encourage each other to do all they can when they can. All efforts in the long run are equally important.



GS
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  #97  
Old 01-05-2010, 04:11 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
For the two different groups to be belittling each other, potentially affecting unity, only comes from a place of ego.
Everyone remember we're all on the same team and encourage each other to do all they can when they can.
Very well-said, GS. On my way back from my morning dental appointment (yup., start the day off on a high note, I know!) I was thinking along these same lines. I have some ideas and will start a new thread on it, rather than taking this one off in another different direction....
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Last edited by CielDuMatin; 01-05-2010 at 04:31 PM.
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  #98  
Old 01-05-2010, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
Everyone remember we're all on the same team and encourage each other to do all they can when they can. All efforts in the long run are equally important.



GS

Good points by everyone....I need to get back to working on and sharing the day to day aspects of my realtionship as that is where I am in life. Definitions and legal issues, while important, are not my primary concern. Finding ways to continue growing is. Setting an example and opening minds by doing is my contribution.

Peace and Love
Mono
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  #99  
Old 01-05-2010, 07:07 PM
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Perhaps -- and this is a guess based on knowledge of polygamous communities here in the US, so it may be completely wrong (fancy that!) -- perhaps the request for female intervenors living in an MFF(FFFFFFF... etc) configuration might be to show that such an arrangement is possible, by choice, without being inherently abusive, and that the problems seen in the aforesaid polygamous communities stem from the people involved, not the mere presence of multiple wives.
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  #100  
Old 01-05-2010, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post

An oversight when it comes to that poem which has been made by nearly everyone I've read so far is this: when they come for you, having cut yourself off from those who would have supported you, or having offered them up first, who will protect the children then? The persecutors?

Change has never happened quietly or by acquiescing to oppression. Any identity that you can put ahead of "rights" has had battles whether they were battles of philosophy or battles where blood ran in the streets. Some speak of ideals here with such contempt all while hiding from the reality. Clinging to *gasp* an ideal that if you just keep your heads down and not associate with "those people," not draw too much attention to yourselves, it will be ok. Patting each other on the back as if modeling that behavior is showing children independence and how to stand up for their rights as people.

Members of the queer community stood up one year and said fuck this shit. Women did the same. People of color did the same. People the world over have done the same. They stood up and said "this is who we are and it is not who you are but we are human. We demand equal rights."

The ones who choose to pass are not usually the ones instrumental in bringing the changes that end up benefiting them and allowing them to stop pretending.

~Raven~
Raven-the part here that intriques me is that the three of us who have talked about protecting our children, are also the the same who have pointed out that in our REAL LIFE communities we are SIGNIFICANTLY involved ON HAND in fighting for the rights of the minority-even if we feel we can't pick a name to be our "umbrella" tag word to describe us in order to protect our children.

I'm not saying in any way that you aren't on the right track for you-but the truth is that you don't have a clue what we do or don't do.
One of my CLOSEST friends is a 16/17 year old who just "came out" as gay. I'm not only "privately" behind this young man-I'm up front in people's faces about it. Likewise for the young man who came out at church a few years back (his parents were the pastors). My first sexual experience was with a young man whose older brother was voted "king" of the local gay mens society and the man voted "queen" was a very good friend of my mom's and our family. I am involved in fighting for the rights PUBLICLY of these people and when I was dating a woman (at barely 18 years old) and someone got in her face and managed to get one hit in before I could get between them not only did I fight back, but I took it to court and won.

You seem to presume that because we are fighting against being labeled as something we aren't-that we aren't fighting for anyone-including ourselves. But that is a HUGE (and incorrect) assumption to make, especially when we've said otherwise.

What did I miss that makes it so impossible for you to accept that I don't need to tell the world I'm Polyamorous-in order to tell them I have a husband, boyfriend and sister whom live with me and help me raise my kids
AND
continue to fight for equality publicly and openly across the board for EVERYONE?
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