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  #31  
Old 01-04-2010, 04:47 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Really? See I used to think that but when I brought up that distinction elsewhere I was told that I was wrong to make that distinction.
I think when people attempt to make the distinctions mutually exclusive then there are problems. I've heard lots of people say that if someone is swinging, they're not poly. I honestly wouldn't know, because a swinging relationship isn't the same thing as poly relationship, so one doesn't inform the other.

There are poly people who swing and also have loving multiple relationships. If a poly person is also a swinger, I'm not going to assume that swinging defines their or my polyamory. It defines their swinging.

All of these can overlap and exist side by side without this idea of one "tainting" the other.
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  #32  
Old 01-04-2010, 04:56 PM
constlady constlady is offline
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ps as i have said i do understand your fear, and it is of course real and valid. however as long as you have access to high quality and supportive legal assistance i really doubt any court would take your children away from you without real evidence that the children were sufferering in your care, which i assume and trust they are not. unless i am missing something - is there a precedent in your state/area which i don't know about perhaps?
I feel fairly confident that should a court battle arise, I would end up prevailing, given the fact that I do have good resources to draw on and the fact that the kids are safe, happy, healthy and thriving.

That doesn't mean that the battle itself won't do damage, emotionally and financially at the very least.
The children involved really cannot be put through such a tumultuous event again.

Having experienced the reality that the agencies appointed to protect children don't always follow their own rules and that application of the rules and the determinations vary from caseworker to caseworker even within the same agency, I'd prefer not to have to fight the system again.

I also am aware that I do have resources available to me that others in my situation may not and without obtaining legal protection for all, any triumph I may have personally is small consolation to the larger problem.

Last edited by constlady; 01-04-2010 at 04:58 PM. Reason: typo ;)
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  #33  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:06 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I think when people attempt to make the distinctions mutually exclusive then there are problems.

There are poly people who swing and also have loving multiple relationships. If a poly person is also a swinger, I'm not going to assume that swinging defines their or my polyamory. It defines their swinging.
Ah gotcha - so if I understand you correctly you feel that polyamory and swinging are different, but that they are not mutually-exclusive (trying to paraphrase you to make sure I understand) when it comes to how people self-identify and that a person saying that they are poly and swingers is not a contradiction

Is that an accurate paraphrasing of what you are saying? If not, I would like you to help me refine this.

If that is what you are saying then I totally agree with you - I also know some people who have a foot in both worlds. This would be a relief for me, because I really though I was on a completely different page with you and others on here on this issue.
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  #34  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:17 PM
jasminegld jasminegld is offline
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
If work was done on a generally-accepted definition of poly for the legal rights issues surrounding families, what, in your opinion, is "child-friendly" enough to make it safe for you to still be poly and to have this issue become a non-issue? Or would any definition be good enough?
UUs for Polyamory Awareness defines polyamory as the philosophy and practice of loving or relating intimately to more than one other person at a time with honesty and integrity.

UUPA's definition includes both philosphy and practice, to be inclusive of people who identify as poly but don't currently have multiple partners.

UUPA's definition includes "relating intimately" to be inclusive of people for whom the term "loving" is problematical, such as people in the gray area between polyamory and swinging. If they choose to call themselves poly, that's fine. If they don't, that's fine.

The definition doesn't specifically state "between adults," because teenagers can have poly dating relationships with other teenagers, and 17 year-olds can have poly dating relationships with 18 year olds. Substituting "age-appropriate" doesn't solve it, because we have no consensus on what constitutes "age-appropropriate" age differences among consenting and legal adults. So it becomes entirely too complicated to address all of that in a brief defition that a person can actually remember.

The "honesty and integrity" phrase is intended to cover "adults don't abuse children," as well as "people don't abuse people."
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  #35  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:32 PM
dakid dakid is offline
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To answer Raven and Ceoli... I guess I thought I had stated my opinion in other threads before but maybe not well enough. I find that the current trend includes sex too much for me, in that it spends far too much time including swinging, friends with benefits types of relationships and open relationships far more than makes me feel comfortable. There is a fine line there, that is true, its just farther to thr sex side than I feel comfortable with. To me the definition of poly includes more loving of many partners in the form of boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse kind of relationships such as our monogamous friends identify. To me there is a coming together of two lives (many in this case) in terms of care of children in some cases but an over all connection of lives. I guess I want people to look at our family and see that rather than who I fuck, in order to make a judgment. I just feel more comfortable in that.Especially in terms of how they see my son being raised.
redpepper i hope you don't me saying this (i respect your views i just don't entirely understand them). why is it that you are uncomfortable about including sex to the extent you describe? you have, it is true, repeatedly said that you don't like this (or words to that effect) but what i am not understanding and am curious about is why.

i could to some extet understand if the state was threatening to remove your child, because of your sexual activities, but i'd like to seperate any fear you may around that from your general discomfort with the thought that someone somewhere might think you are having more sex, or sex in different contexts, to that which you are having.

i hope i am right in thinking that there is no current threat to your custody of your son, and that this is highly unlikely in the future.

would you mind helping me to understand this by explaining further along the lines i have described?

thank you

x

Last edited by dakid; 01-04-2010 at 05:38 PM.
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  #36  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:32 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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While people may have a foot in both worlds, it doesn't necessarily follow that both worlds have a clear divide. As was alluded to before, there are differing definitions of what constitutes a loving relationship, some are more conservative than others.

However, I don't think diversity within a larger definition taints it. I think assumptions do.
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  #37  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:38 PM
dakid dakid is offline
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re - the questions about swinging/polyamory. for me it is fairly simple.

swingers self-identify as swingers and as i understand it do not experience the emotion of love for the people they swing with.

people who have polyamorous relationships/are polyamorous identify as such and do experience the emotion of love for their sexual and/or romantic partners.

i feel sexual and/or romantic love for multiple people at one time, i'm honest and open about this, and i identify as polyamorous/identify my relationships as polyamorous therefore i am and they are.

sadly it seems to me others in my supposed poly community feel ashamed or uncomfortable about potentially being linked to me and my kind in the minds of others. that for them is apparently more important than mutual understanding and community building between polyamorous identifying people. while i try to understand and strive to be forgiving it is nonetheless sad for me that they feel this way.

x
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  #38  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:45 PM
dakid dakid is offline
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Originally Posted by constlady View Post
I feel fairly confident that should a court battle arise, I would end up prevailing, given the fact that I do have good resources to draw on and the fact that the kids are safe, happy, healthy and thriving.

That doesn't mean that the battle itself won't do damage, emotionally and financially at the very least.
The children involved really cannot be put through such a tumultuous event again.

Having experienced the reality that the agencies appointed to protect children don't always follow their own rules and that application of the rules and the determinations vary from caseworker to caseworker even within the same agency, I'd prefer not to have to fight the system again.

I also am aware that I do have resources available to me that others in my situation may not and without obtaining legal protection for all, any triumph I may have personally is small consolation to the larger problem.
i understand and i apologise for forgetting momentarily about the lack of public funding for legal representation in the united states. here i was able to access advice and representation at no cost to myself.

i also understand and agree strongly with your desire to protect the children from such stressful situations.

above all i salute your final paragraph, and hope that soon we as a community can unite as a community, and with other threatened communities, to defend ourselves from state interference in our private lives. what i mean is that we need to get together and fight for our right to have whatever sex and/or love lives we choose without the risk of children being taken from us where we are providing good care to those children.

i think we are tactically more likely to acheive this in unity, rather than trying to evict certain types of people/behaviour from our community. we cannot and never will be able to 100% control use of the word polyamorous whether or not we would want to. therefore our only hope, in terms of protecting our children and ourselves, is to defend our rights to a sex life of whatever kind we choose, provided it is based on informed consent.

until we have the right to be as kinky and as slutty as we want, even for those who don't want it, the rest of us will never be free from the risk of incorrect accusations.

i cannot thank you enough constlady for your willingness to respond to my words with patience and clarity.

x
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  #39  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:48 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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I guess what it comes down to is that things don't have to look or even be entirely alike to have things in common. The definitions are only speaking to the elements that these things have in common. In the case of polyamory, love and multiple relationships. It does not specifically exclude the things that we don't have in common (the weight of sex vs love, the nature of how the love manifests) for a good reason. Because then it would also start excluding the things that they do have in common. It's a great way to specifically exclude people from a community.
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  #40  
Old 01-04-2010, 05:49 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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OK, then I am confused again, and could use your help to sort this out, Ceoli.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
That's interesting because non-monogamy by definition includes swinging and polyamory doesn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
While people may have a foot in both worlds, it doesn't necessarily follow that both worlds have a clear divide.
To me, the first statement says to me that you believe that polyamory does not include swinging - a clear divide - 'one thing does not include another by definition', and the second that there is no clear divide. I am obviously missing something in my understanding of this.

[Edit to add:]
Quote:
I guess what it comes down to is that things don't have to look or even be entirely alike to have things in common. The definitions are only speaking to the elements that these things have in common. In the case of polyamory, love and multiple relationships. It does not specifically exclude the things that we don't have in common (the weight of sex vs love, the nature of how the love manifests) for a good reason. Because then it would also start excluding the things that they do have in common. It's a great way to specifically exclude people from a community.
See, this makes a ton of sense to me - the distinction between saying "I'm not you and that's fine that we have differences and things in common" and "I am not you which makes us have nothing in common" - we should be looking for more things that we have in common between the various subcultures, rather than focusing on the differences.
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Last edited by CielDuMatin; 01-04-2010 at 05:53 PM.
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