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  #11  
Old 02-07-2013, 10:09 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
Yeah, I don't think it's right if she's going on dates with guys who think she's a real female, then she later reveals she's not.

It's like coming out of a shop thinking you've purchased one product when in fact they've sold you something else.
If a woman is born with a hormone problem and deformed genitalia, which she corrects with hormone pills and surgery, should she be expected to explain her medical history on the first date? Is it "not right" if she waits until she knows if she even likes someone to bring up that sensitive piece of her past?

This isn't any different. Women, whether cis or trans, are nothing like commodities you purchase from a shop.
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Last edited by AnnabelMore; 02-08-2013 at 04:28 AM.
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2013, 03:58 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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It's like coming out of a shop thinking you've purchased one product when in fact they've sold you something else.
Your analogy is quite demeaning! Jeez.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:30 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
If a woman is born with a hormone problem and deformed genitalia, which she corrects with hormone pills and surgery, should she be expected to explain her medical history on the first date? Is it "not right" if she waits until she knows if she even likes someone to bring up that sensitive piece of her past?

This isn't any different. Women, whether cis or trans, are nothing like commodities you purchase from a shop.
Of course it's different.

Many men would consider a woman from birth to be completely different to a woman who has gotten there from surgery and hormones.
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:32 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Your analogy is quite demeaning! Jeez.
I don't see the problem. Would you like to explain?
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  #15  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:00 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I don't see the problem. Would you like to explain?
Your analogy places the woman as a product for you to own. A date is not you "acquiring" someone, it's two people getting to know each other. Being trans is, in my opinion, something that a partner should know about yourself, and part of getting to know each other, but there certainly is no obligation to wear it as a label like a product in a store would have.

While you're dating, you get to know each other, but that can't all happen at once, and of course it can be tricky to know exactly when the right time is to say each thing.

On top of that, you have done it again: you have insinuated that trans women aren't women from birth. They happen to have a penis, but that doesn't mean they're not women (well, they'd start up as girls, obviously, but you know what I mean).
Excluding the case of genderfluid people who might switch from male to female, or people who do not have a gender at all, generally people have the same gender from the get go. What their genitals look like, if irrelevant in one case, should be irrelevant in the other, too.
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  #16  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:13 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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On top of that, you have done it again: you have insinuated that trans women aren't women from birth. They happen to have a penis, but that doesn't mean they're not women (well, they'd start up as girls, obviously, but you know what I mean).
Im not insinuating it, I'm saying it explicitly: trans women aren't women from birth. I don't see how anyone can dispute the fact that a baby born with a penis is not a woman from birth.

My point was that some men are fine with this and some aren't, but you should have the right to know something as fundamental as gender before you meet someone.

The analogy wasn't meant to be about is ownership, but about expecting one thing and getting another.
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  #17  
Old 02-08-2013, 10:34 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Nobody is a woman from birth. A woman is an adult female. You're not adult from birth. Just repeating that part because it annoys me.

You don't seem to know what gender means, otherwise you wouldn't talk about people having the right to know a person's gender. Trans women's gender is female, same as cis women's. Assigned sex at birth might be different, yes, but that's not gender.

I do agree that people should know what someone's private parts look like before they have sex with them, and since sex is an expected component, it should come up at some point. And I do think the sooner the better so you don,t end up getting emotionally attach to someone who's only going to end up rejecting you. But it's not lying or hiding anything when a trans woman doesn't say "I have a penis" the first second she meets someone. There is some level of privacy to be expected, and it's a matter of respect not to demand women explain what their genitals look like to people who are still strangers to them. The same would go for men, obviously.

I should probably stop here, as I don't seem I have any chance of convincing you. You seem extremely transphobic and I don't think a conversation between us is likely to get anywhere.
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  #18  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:09 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
Nobody is a woman from birth. A woman is an adult female. You're not adult from birth. Just repeating that part because it annoys me.
This is simply semantics, and I don't know why it would annoy you. Obviously I'm talking about a girl, rather than a woman. It doesn't score you any points in the wider debate.

When a birth is registered, there are 2 options - boy or girl. If the baby has a penis, it is a boy.

To say I'm transphobic because I disagree with you that a person has the right to know something fundamental like gender, or whether a person has changed gender in their life before meeting them in a dating scenario is ridiculous. It's nothing against trans - it's just that people have certain preferences, and they have a right to know this stuff before getting romantically involved, in my opinion.

Also, you've taken my point about meeting people for a date and tried to make it sound like I'm saying that a trans person has to announce this to every single person in every single social situation. Not true. I'm just saying that if you meet someone under the context of it being a 'date', where at some point there may be some romantic interest, that's the point when you have to tell them this.

When you make a point and say things like 'you obviously know nothing about gender', 'this annoys me' and then attempt to take the higher ground by saying you won't enter into the debate any further - it just shows that you're struggling to express yourself in either a mature or calm fashion.
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  #19  
Old 02-08-2013, 12:23 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I got the semantics part out of the way because it annoyed me because I'm a grammar Nazi (although this isn't grammar). Of course it has nothing to do with the issue.

Gender is an identity that has nothing to do with what genitals you currently own or have ever owned. That's why I say you know nothing about gender when you state that people "deserve to know the real gender". Their real gender is and always has been female.

The options at birth are not just boy and girl, there is also IS, but that's beside the point. What a doctor decides based on genitals he or she sees at birth is not gender. It's assigned sex. It's an important distinction, and since it seems you didn't get that from my previous post, I felt I had to at least clarify that last bit.

The reason I call you transphobic is because you have been repeatedly stating that trans women "aren't real women" or that their gender is not female, or that they have "changed their gender". These statements are transphobic and disrespectful.
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  #20  
Old 02-08-2013, 12:44 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Don't mention it if it's not relevant. It adds nothing to the debate.

Same as when you talk about 'sex' and 'gender'. You can talk about definitions all you want, but my belief is this:

If someone is meeting someone that he believes is a woman for a date, he deserves to know if she was once classified as a boy or a man.

I'm not saying that trans women aren't 'women' as such, but there is a difference between a trans women and a woman who was born as a woman (sorry, I mean girl...very important that).

Your definitions of sex and gender imply that a person can be classified sex male, but gender female. Is that what you're getting at? If that's the case then you can replace all my previous versions of the word gender with sex.

You seem to like to debate details that make little difference to the overall argument, almost as a smokescreen to make your initial point more correct 'see, if I'm right on all this other stuff, then I must be right on everything'.

I will restate the point - just because my understanding of every single definition around (of which there are many) may be slightly out of kilter with what's in the dictionary (or indeed, your dictionary), does not make me 'transphobic'.
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