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  #131  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:32 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Texas
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Default a partial response.

I’m quoting the “disclaimer” portions of my first two posts.
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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
DISCLAIMER:
First off I have read a lot of negative things about couples "unicorn hunting" and while in a nut shell that maybe all some people see in what we were attempting. We went into this situation with a much more open minded approach then what I have seen described in such a negative light. So give me time to put the basics out there, and get my story together before assuming that we are unicorn predators.

As this is meant to be a blog of my Poly journey I'm not actively seeking advice; however advice is welcome when it is constructive. Tone of voice can not be conveyed in text, so consider your words carefully and realize that the emotional state of the reader will put tone of voice to your words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post
DISCLAIMER: This is coming from a place of sadness and hurt, so take what you read here with a heavy grain of salt. Remember that these are my words, my impressions, and do not necessarily reflect everything accurately (despite my best efforts I can not detach completely). Not all the details are expressed here. Some things may even be out of order.
I add the underlines for emphasis. Tone of voice is assumed by the reader, based on their emotional state at the time of reading, and the wording of a post. Yes several posters to this forum have had some “harsh” or negative comments, wording is important if a poster wants a reader to respond with a willingness to listen and understand.

I have also acknowledged that this is my view, and that I know it to be skewed, and incomplete. As “detailed” as my posts may seem many, many things are left out, and therefore are unclear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Hi Numina,
I am sorry for the harshness of my response. My reaction was only out of concern for you, so I am sorry for having been such a "doomsayer" about all this. I want to be supportive, but when I read what you wrote, I couldn't contain my incredulousness at what is transpiring. With the post about her moving out, I was very hopeful for you, and then when you wrote about him sharing a bank account with her and them handfasting, it blew my mind, like it is all going backwards again. Plus, I have been very suspicious of her motives since you started writing about Chipmunk. If Airyn didn't have a place for her to stay and offer some security to Chipmunk, I doubt she'd have stuck around in this relationship with him as long as she has. I am sorry if that upsets you. If we were face-to-face, I'd be buying you a drink!
*I am attempting to be clearer, to offer a cleaner picture. Yes I am stressed, and I feel that comes through in what and how I write. I am also at the moment calm and thinking about everything. From what is happening right now, to the responses I have received*

The talk of a handfasting, marriage, and kids has been going on since she moved in. It is part of why she struggles to wrap her mind around Airyn and I being married. We told her that while these things are not currently on the table they are potentially an option farther down the road. (At the time we were all dating) That it would have to be discussed at a later time (after figuring out if this would work out or not). She moved in with us saying that she wanted to be married before having kids. Totally understandable, Airyn was not looking to have any more children, so that wasn’t a concern for him other then finding out her views on birth control. The discussion was left with an ok, you want marriage and kids, that may be a possibility later, as in after Wolf is an adult.

So Chipmunk has been talking about getting married, and wanting a ceremony, that is where the handfasting idea came in. It’s a ceremony that can happen sooner then marriage or kids. Chipmunk has been looking at wedding dresses, wedding cakes and other wedding related things since moving in. She talks about wanting kids in the same conversation she says “reason # 46 for not having kids,” and pointing out that she can’t have a kid with Airyn because he can’t marry her and stay married to me. Chipmunk will say all this and then tells us she doesn’t think she’d be a good mom, and so doesn’t want kids.

Mostly Airyn and I had attempted to explain that our marriage did not mean that she could not consider Airyn her boyfriend, and me her girlfriend. We didn’t do a good job of that, that’s on us. Neither of us had considered our marriage a barrier, and we were unsure how to alleviate this worry for her. Some how I think this is still leaving a lot out and will not go over well.

Was I bothered that we had only been dating for a couple months and living together for a couple weeks when these conversations started coming up? Yes.
Did my discomfort mean she had no right to ask these questions? To test the waters so to speak? No, I just felt it was way too early to be talking about a more serious commitment then room mating. Kids are not an idle commitment, they are life long. Kids are a much bigger commitment then room mating and agreeing to try dating both of us.

When it comes to conversations about handfasting, I know and remember what was talked about originally, and what I was ok with at the time. I’m still deciding what I will be ok with now. Handfasting does not bother me over much as it is temporary, and is really just a verbal commitment with some pomp and ceremony if the couple wishes it. Airyn knows that Marriage between them is not on the table as far as I am concerned at this moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
You have more patience than I could ever have, and that says a lot because I am a very patient person. I did read and understand your posts - I know the handfasting won't be right away, and when I said she doesn't need her own apartment, I just meant it doesn't have to be in her own name - wouldn't it be quicker if she looked for a room somewhere and lived with a regular roommate (someone she isn't having sex with)? Then, at least, you wouldn't have to wait as long for her to save up money to do it, since an apartment share would surely be cheaper than getting a place on her own. The idea that she should have her own apartment right away seems rather unrealistic to me. Ultimately I just don't see how you can continue to put up with the situation you have now - I would have changed the locks and put her things out a long time ago, because isn't the important thing to get her out of your space? So, that's why I think she can just look for a share situation and not wait to get a lease.
This helps me understand what you mean and what you are trying to say. Yes I can see your suggestion as a quicker way to get her moved out.

I have no experience with a rent/apartment “shares” and do not know of any within walking distance of Chipmunk’s job. I think she could find something like what you suggest farther out, but that would require her to either have a vehicle, or be willing to learn our public transportation system. While I have offered to help her learn the busing/train system here she has not taken me up on this offer.

And it never occured to me to suggest she look for a non intimate room mate.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #132  
Old 02-07-2013, 03:48 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Default partial response #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
And I don't see why Airyn wants to be involved in her bank account, it just doesn't make sense to me at all if the goal is for her to be independent. It seems so... parental. My comments about him being controlling are not just about the last few posts, but an overall thing he seems to do, keeping her in check, wanting her to do certain things, asking you to say or not say certain things to her, it is all over the place and I am puzzled how you cannot see it -- but perhaps it is simply an interpretation of the written word and only coming across that way to me? You are very detailed in your writing and so maybe it just seems he is trying to control a lot because we are reading the details of so many conversations. I don't think you need to change how you write, I will try to change how I read it. However, there are glaring GLARING problems you seem to brush off in deference to Airyn and it seems so detrimental to everyone involved.
I think part of this is a misconception, and that is my fault. Perhaps you would consider it controlling, perhaps not. When I talk about Airyn not wanting me to say certain things to Chipmunk I am referring to my coming to him and using him as a sounding board for things I want to talk with Chipmunk about. He offers me advice. Often he suggests that I wait till I have cooled down so that I don’t come at her with my aggressive, hot-headedness. I choose to listen to this advice even when I feel she does need to hear what I have to say. Chipmunk would not handle my more aggressive approach to certain types of communication well. This is one of the things I have been working on for many month, I’ve learned a lot, and have reduced this tendency. I can see it in my communication with Airyn. More often then not Airyn tells me that what I want to say she needs to hear, then he councils me to avoid wording or tone that is over bearing and aggressive. This is hard for me, and that maybe what you are interpreting as him controlling what I can and can not discuss.

I do defer to Airyn a lot, he is the more calm and patient one in our relationship. We both know and acknowledge this, and so I bring him my issues and listen to his advice. As the more calm less aggressive person I see him as capable of pointing out when I’m over reacting and can’t see that for myself. However my emotions seem to come through just fine in my writing. NYCindie we'll have to PM and talk about this one more.

The bank account thing is being ironed out. His willingness to be a joint account holder stems from Chipmunks desire to feel connected. It also comes from their lack of understand of the financial pitfalls this can and does cause. Not that I'm at the top of that game. I had reservations, and uncertainty, but not any exact understanding of what could go wrong. Just generalities, and potential negative outcomes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
You still don't get it. If she is in a shitty mood, why does he see it as his duty to go and fix her? I don't have anyone ringing my doorbell when I'm in a bad mood and placating me to feel better. Who does? If she's in a bad mood and walks out the door, why can't he simply let her take a walk and cool off by herself? It's her mood, her life, her responsibility. Let her go. He consistently runs to her, coos in her ear, manipulates her into feeling better, but that is stunting her own growth and ability to manage her own emotions. Meanwhile, he is abandoning you to take care of this woman. YES she is a woman, not a child, no matter how immature or inexperienced she is. If he stops trying to fix her and she realizes he isn't going to leave your side to cheer her up anymore, she'll stop pulling that shit to get his attention. If she comes back still in a pissy mood, you just tell her, "Listen, your mood is souring everything and we can't even enjoy being in our own home with you here grumbling and having a tantrum. So please either change it, say what's on your mind, or go somewhere else and stay away from me." You know, like from one adult to another! And if she can't manage her moods and it is just too draining on you for her to live there, the answer is simple - kick her out. But your passive acceptance of Airyn's sharing an apartment and a bank account with her, and planning a handfasting, seems like sheer lunacy.
Again I see this as a misinterpretation.
When someone you care about is angry and making it obvious that you are the reason are you going to ignore that you’ve done something that has hurt them? Sure she should just come out and say what is bothering her, or at least ask Airyn for a private moment to talk about what ever it is. She chooses not to. It really bother Airyn when he thinks he did something, said something that has hurt, upset, or angered someone he cares about.

An example:
Say he’s renting a room from his mom and his mom is angry, or sad about something. She walks through the house showing Airyn her sadness in such a way that he “thinks” he has something to do with what ever is bothering her. In Airyn’s world that means he should go find out what it is, and correct his mistake, or explain his actions.

With this view, hearing you say that he should just ignore Chipmunk’s fowl moods as they are just hers doesn’t fit (for me).

I can clear something up here I think:
On D-day, when Chipmunk woke us up to tell Airyn she was going for a walk. She knew Airyn got up, and that he was cleaning and doing laundry. There was at least an hour (probably closer to 2 hours) from when Chipmunk woke us up to tell Airyn she was going for a walk, and when Airyn gave in and went to talk to her. She chose not to go for her walk, and chose to not go to Airyn to tell him why she was pissed at him. Airyn had two choice let her stay pissed at him, and ignore it and spend his day stressed and worried about what he had done, or go talk to her and find out what happened. To find out if he had something to apologize for, explain, or compromise on.

Also I have spoken with Chipmunk about how when she's having a hard time removing herself from the situation before it explodes is a good idea. I told her that this is something I NEED TO WORK ON. That I should have, and didn't remove myself from a couple situations that I was not comfortable with, and made thing difficult for her and Airyn in the process. I gave her some examples of where I made this mistake. I told her I was working on it, and asked for her patients and understanding. I then ask that she try doing the same thing. That when something is too much or too uncomfortable that she remove herself, and talk with me, or Airyn about it later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I don't have anyone ringing my doorbell when I'm in a bad mood and placating me to feel better. Who does?
Reading this makes me sad. Are you saying that no one in your life cares enough about you to ask you what is wrong when you are having a bad day, when you are stressed, frustrated, or upset?

When I’m at work and my personal stress shows I have several work friends who ask me what’s wrong, and offer to listen if I need someone to talk to. I would hope that everyone has at least one person (a significate other, a friend, or a caring co-worker) who cares enough about them to be concerned when they can see that there is something wrong.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #133  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:00 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 139
Default partial response #3

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I have been very suspicious of her motives since you started writing about Chipmunk. If Airyn didn't have a place for her to stay and offer some security to Chipmunk, I doubt she'd have stuck around in this relationship with him as long as she has.
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
the answer is simple - kick her out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I would have changed the locks and put her things out a long time ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
In actuality, the person I've felt most sorry for in all this has been Chipmunk. She had all this expectation placed on her to satisfy both you and Airyn in your desire for a triad, and whenever she shows any sign of knowing her own mind, you are disappointed and lecture her.
These four quotes from your lastest post feel contradictory. Are you uncomfortable with Chipmunk's possible motives? Are you telling me to kick her out, to toss her thing out the door? or do you feel sorry for her? I'm guessing that all three are correct depending on what you are reading or responding to, however this comes across to me as confusing, and contradictory.

I'll go with your last sentiment.
Chipmunk chose to move in. Then she has chosen over and over to continue living with us. She could have said at any time, "I've had enough of this, I don't like this, I'm moving out" and then actually moved. She chose to stay and live with us versus moving back in with her biological mom, or find a room for rent like you previously suggested. There were expectations, hopes, ideals about what could be. When these didn't pan out Chipmunk could have spoken up, she could have said, "hey this isn't working like we talked about, now what?" Both Chipmunk and Airyn could have spoken up when they realized it wasn't going to be. Instead I figured it out, and brought it to them. Yes I'm disappointed. Who wouldn't be? Have I lectured her about this failure at an intimate relationship? Have I pointed my finger at her telling her this is "all her fault" or that she's a "home wrecker" (both of which I have read about happening in other triad situations gone wrong)? No, I have not.

What I did was talk with her asking her to work with me to find some level of intimacy that we could both be comfortable with. This could have turned towards a very unique friendship. It did not. Was she open to the idea? I do not know, she never said, never came back to me with any ideas of her own for what she and I could try. I came to her with ideas, most of them she shot down. I have only shared the ones that were very hurtful to me, the ones that felt most like a rejection to me. It's not as if she wasn't making me an offer. She was very clear in letting Airyn and I know that she was only interested in me, that she was unsure of Airyn, uncomfortable with Airyn. When she explained that she was unsure of Airyn, I asked if she would be willing to spend time with us getting to know Airyn better to see if this was something she was interested in trying or not. After they started hitting it off better it came out that Chipmunk had a crush on Airyn when she first met him in class, but decided to consider him no more then friend material once finding out he was married. Some how the same thing did not happen in her mind where I was concerned. *shrug* Once she decided she was comfortable dating Airyn, then she let on that she would be interested in trying out the poly lifestyle we were suggesting. It is very disappointing, and hurtful to be offered something you want over and over again only to find out that the offer wasn't real. I'm sure the first offer (or two) were real, but the last several were not. I am not an uncaring person who lacks compassion and understanding. Instead of treating with me as if the wants and desires of each member of my household are important to me I was ignored. My desire for something that was not to be was ignored, and not talked about other then to tell me that I was seeing things wrong, that I should work harder at it. Realising this is a disappointment, how can I express it as anything less.

If that is not the lecturing you are talking about then I'll have to assume you are talking about the email I sent Chipmunk? If that is so then are you telling me that I have no right to expect respectfulness of myself, and my space? Airyn and I both made subtle suggestions that she should participate in keeping the household chores under control. Airyn came at me over and over for 3 months with his anger and stress over the state of our place. I pointed out over and over that I am maintaining my things that it is not my mess, or Wolfs mess he is upset about, and that he should talk with Chipmunk about this. He chose not to. In my tired of all of it state over the "she's a roommate" comment I sent that email. And I acknowledge that it was me telling Chipmunk in essence that she has to clean up behind herself, and think about more then just herself. Sure she can go around calling Airyn her boyfriend, but she can not do so and ignore the fact that Airyn is married. Sure she can live how ever she wants in her own home, but she does not live in her own home. She is sharing space with a family, and should at least be considerate enough to pick up behind herself, and not always be expecting me and Airyn to pick up and wash her laundry and dishes for her. Her response (to the room mate comment part) was that I should never have expected her to go around and not call Airyn her boyfriend. I told her that this was not the problem, the problem occured when she chose not to allow me a place by Airyn's side because she and Airyn are dating. I could easily have said the same thing to her, she should never have expected me to go around and not call Airyn my husband. And to keeping the household chores under control, she got angry telling Airyn that the "only" space she has is the closet, and that she is just going to move out. Sadly for all of us even that closet is shared space. There had not been any space that was just one persons, that was "private", until we curtained off a section of the living room. It's not much, but it does help to some degree. It's not "private", but it is a space Chipmunk can call "hers" and live in however she wants. It was also her idea, and we started setting it up the very next day.

The email tells Chipmunk to clean up behind herself. It is up to her when, and how often. We may joke about making her clean up, and yes I have told her that I "should" or "could" use the same "tough love" suggestions she was throwing in my face over how Wolf takes care of her laundry and dishes. But this has NEVER been done. It was said in jest, and yes it was also meant to point out the absurdity of treating her an adult like a child. Those comments from me are more to point out that the issues she had with Wolf are the very same things she does, and to point out that I could take her parenting advice but use her "touch love" approach on her. Did it make a difference? Nope. Her laundry is piled up right now in the living room, and the bed room. Both the washer and dry are loaded with her things. This has been the case for over a week now. I have twice talked to her about my need to do laundry, to wash work clothes, and school clothes, asking her to clear her things from the washer and dryer. Maybe this weekend I'll get to do my laundry. I could very easily fall into treating her as I do Wolf, like a child. Some times it is very difficult for me not to, I stop and think about what I'm going to say so that she will be less likely to feel threatened by me, and won't feel as if I am treating her poorly. Mostly I am successful, but if I'm not I'm not sure I'd even know it. I do not think she would say anything to me about it, and I'm not sure she'd say anything to Airyn about it either.

If she would just talk to me. On her own, or when I am trying to talk to her. A lot of these things wouldn't be a problem, but she won't. When I attempted to get her input on how much she should contribute to household food, paper, and gas expenses she was unable to suggest any value. I suggested a value for gas based on the miles/per gallon we get in my car versus the driving for Chipmunk. Several months of Chipmunk and I grocery shopping together, and talking about how much different household staples cost, and she could offer no value that she would be ok with. I made a suggestion and she accepted it with out discussion, or complaint, or asking any questions. It makes it very hard to talk to her about extra expenses, like contact solution. I don't not wear contacts, but her and Airyn do. At the time I made my suggestion this was an item only Chipmunk used. Now Airyn wears contacts too. So I purchased solution, and told them that this is an extra expense, and that the next set Chipmunk would have to cover the cost. This news received no comment from her. No, Oh ok, yeah that makes sense, or but shouldn't my contribution already cover this expense?

The rest I'll leave out.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #134  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:47 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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I'm sorry if you find it harsh, but I think everything everyone is saying is right on target.

I don't see any contradiction at all in NYC's suspicion of Chipmunk's motives at the same time she feels most sorry for her in all of this--for the simple reason that we, as human beings, are not all good or all bad. There are thousands of shades of gray.

What I have seen, following this blog from the start, is a young girl from a messed up home who doesn't believe she can take care of herself. A much older couple takes her in, with the understanding that they both want sex from her. She takes the opportunity to escape a bad home life, but in truth isn't very comfortable with sex with another woman.

Apparently she was dishonest about what she really wanted, in order to get what she felt she needed. I don't condone that at all. At the same time, some of the early descriptions of trying to get her comfortable with you sexually or telling her what you want, I'm sorry to say, felt like 'grooming' behavior. Isn't Chipmunk only about 18 or 19 and you and Airyn in your mid-30s? I don't think you'll find many parents of 18/19 year old daughters out there who would like knowing this is their daughter's situation.

At the same time, it's insane that Chipmunk is having an issue with Airyn being with his own wife or showing affection to his own wife. It's insane that you're being told to clear out of your own bedroom for hours on end for them when you apparently don't get the same in return. It's insane that you're being expected to revolve your life around Chipmunk's schedules and wants or that you were expected to pick up after her.

And it's outrageous that Airyn is monitoring her computer activity with a keylogger without her knowledge. I'm liking Airyn less and less as he clearly disregards how this situation is hurting you. I find myself concerned about the shared bank account both for the damage that could end up being done to your credit and wondering if Chipmunk is in danger by letting her bank account and money be totally accessible to a man who monitors her computer without her knowledge or permission.

I'm also concerned, as I read this blog, how is all of this affecting Wolf? I go out with my boyfriend only twice a week, only when my kids' dad is with them, and it affects my kids, but your daughter is living 24/7 with this non-stop drama of you and Chipmunk being upset with each other, and Chipmunk's moods, and you struggling to maintain the situation, and letters being written among the three of you trying to get everyone to change, and you and Airyn arguing or disappearing for long, long conversations trying to iron this out--all on top of watching her father go in and out of the bedroom with two different women, including one who's of an age to be her big sister, rather than a step mother. Wolf has been subjected to Chipmunk making meals and telling Wolf she's not welcome to eat them!

And now she's facing her father moving out for half the week. I know your daughter is not mine, but I can tell you having your father move does affect kids. I thought she (my daughter) would be fine, as her dad lives within walking distance and is here 3-4 days a week while I'm at work. Turns out she wasn't, she certainly did notice and was hurt by seeing him less than before he moved out. He's now over here even more, even hanging around making dinner while I'm at home--because his kids need his presence; because kids need their parents around. Kids do notice and are affected when a parent just disappears for half the week. I fear you may be fooling yourself that Wolf sees her father getting a new apartment with another woman as some great opportunity to have two homes to hang out at.

I hope you can see in my post and all the others, that there is also a concern for you. This situation is clearly hurting everyone, except maybe Airyn. I believe that nobody here intends to be harsh or cruel, but is speaking out of concern for you.

Last edited by WhatHappened; 02-07-2013 at 04:51 PM.
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  #135  
Old 02-07-2013, 05:12 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post
Are you saying that no one in your life cares enough about you to ask you what is wrong when you are having a bad day, when you are stressed, frustrated, or upset? . . . I would hope that everyone has at least one person (a significate other, a friend, or a caring co-worker) who cares enough about them to be concerned when they can see that there is something wrong.
Well, you're being very literal here. Yes, of course I have people in my life who care about me and say comforting things to me, but no one is trying to get me to change how I feel or petting me until I am feeling better. It's up to me. Besides, it isn't always constructive to try and comfort people beyond offering your presence if they want it. When someone is in the midst of difficult feelings, a word or touch that tries to dissipate what they're feeling often only submerges it and doesn't allow them to move through and experience the emotion. I'm saying that it seems Airyn runs to placate her and manipulate her into being in a more acceptable mood that all of you can tolerate, rather than letting her be. That is disrespectful, in my eyes. Why can't she have her own experience? If her moods can't be tolerated in your space, let her find somewhere else to go where her moods are welcome.

In addition, I haven't read much, or anything really, about any other friendships of hers. Are you and Airyn allowing her the space to nurture friendships with other people, classmates, her peers? When does she go out and socialize with girlfriends, and other guys? The whole situation seems very limiting to her freedom as an individual. There is something pretty icky about the dynamic you and Airyn have created in order to make him happy and to keep her around.

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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
These four quotes from your lastest post feel contradictory. Are you uncomfortable with Chipmunk's possible motives? Are you telling me to kick her out, to toss her thing out the door? or do you feel sorry for her? I'm guessing that all three are correct depending on what you are reading or responding to, however this comes across to me as confusing, and contradictory.
Yes, I do feel sorry for her because of all the expectations that were piled up on her to be a gf to both of you, and how her life is micromanaged by both you and Airyn. That is just how I have seen it running through your thread. AND I also see that she is young, inexperienced, and hasn't found her voice yet. She needs to step up and grow up, and stop depending on you two to run things for her. I suspect that she only moved in out of fear of having nowhere else to go, because you two made it easy for her in that respect, and she convinced herself she is in love to deal with it. I don't think that her motives are intentional, but rather unconscious.

She is in her early 20s, correct? I'll admit, I have very little patience with young people who don't have a clue how to stand up for themselves. I grew up in the 70s when independence was the goal. At her age, I had already moved out of my parent's place to NYC with very little money and squatted illegally in an apartment until I convinced the landlord to give me a lease the next year. I had been working since I was 14, and contributing money to my mother's household since I was 16. When I moved out to live on my own in a scary, expensive, big city, I budgeted myself using envelopes to save the cash I made as a waitress to pay my bills. I lived without a phone for almost two years, and asked the owner of a candy store to take messages for me on his payphone. I was resourceful and strove to be independent, so I get frustrated when I read how complacent and indecisive Chipmunk is. Still, I do feel sorry for her.

While, yes, you can say she chose to try being in a relationship with the two of you, even though she wasn't really bisexual, and she chose to move in, can't you see that she did it all because she was desperate and didn't think she had many other viable options? So, she had a crush on him, and thought it would be cool to hook up, but she needed to get out of her bad home situation more than anything.

However, I don't see all the hand-holding and micro-managing you and Airyn do, as being very helpful to her. Very often, the only way we can help those we care about to stand on their own, is to let them fall down and figure out how to pick themselves up. We can be there for them without doing it all for them. So, yes, I think the best resolution is to say, "This isn't working. Please move out as soon as possible." Don't find an apartment for her, don't give her the bus schedule, make suggestions but let her do it. She can still be in a relationship with Airyn and live on her own in a room she rents from someone sharing their apartment or house, and she can learn to manage her own money. If she wants the relationship with Airyn to continue, and be a self-sufficient adult about her life, it is on her to be proactive instead of waiting for solutions from him and you. And if she can't handle that, oh well. It won't be the end of Airyn if he loses her.
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"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

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  #136  
Old 02-07-2013, 05:46 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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What I have seen, following this blog from the start, is a young girl from a messed up home who doesn't believe she can take care of herself. A much older couple takes her in, with the understanding that they both want sex from her. She takes the opportunity to escape a bad home life, but in truth isn't very comfortable with sex with another woman.
In the beginning it was dating no sex involved, she was the agressor, and instigator of the first sexual encounter. I am actually more of a lets date for a good long while kind of person. I feel I made a mistake within me and my own comfort to have moved so quickly to a physical, sexual relationship (guilt for it? yes). Left to my own devises without the pressure of another persons desire it could have been 6 months or a year before sex. Unrealistic perhaps, but Airyn and I went much longer then that when he and I first started dating, with more sexual tension between us. She chose this as much as anyone. When she realized she wasn't ok with that, she could have talked with me. I was blind and continued trying to date her to find some balance between us. To put Airyn in the middle where she and I could perhaps just enjoy being in each others company and loving (sex) Airyn together. Her reactions left me feeling she had no interest in that, but that she still wanted to be able to kiss me, to act as if she and I were going steady, but not interested in more then necking, kissing. And really that was only of interest to her when she had been drinking. (there is a lot of sadness, disappointment, and anguish in the above from me: it hurts to think someone whats to be with, and then be turned down over and over again. I can be sexually agressive with Airyn I know him well. I was not so with Chipmunk, I was very very timid. Airyn found it humorous compared to he and I.)

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Apparently she was dishonest about what she really wanted, in order to get what she felt she needed. I don't condone that at all. At the same time, some of the early descriptions of trying to get her comfortable with you sexually or telling her what you want, I'm sorry to say, felt like 'grooming' behavior.
Erm what? I was grooming her? how. She tells me she doesn't know what I want, tells me she doesn't know what to do with me. I have no Idea how to respond to that. I gave her no directions other then to do what she enjoys, she tells me she doesn't know what she likes. And this is grooming her for what? *confused*

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Isn't Chipmunk only about 18 or 19 and you and Airyn in your mid-30s? I don't think you'll find many parents of 18/19 year old daughters out there who would like knowing this is their daughter's situation.
22 and 34, and it would not surprise me if most parents would be uncomfortable knowing about the polyamours relationship their children are part of. As a matter of fact the disclosing of poly lifestyles to ones parents has caused all sorts of rifts in parent/child relationships no matter the age of the child(18-55). I have read many threads on these forums documenting the anguish of one person telling their parents about the poly life they lead. It also happens when parents find out that their child is gay.

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And it's outrageous that Airyn is monitoring her computer activity with a keylogger without her knowledge. I'm liking Airyn less and less as he clearly disregards how this situation is hurting you. I find myself concerned about the shared bank account both for the damage that could end up being done to your credit and wondering if Chipmunk is in danger by letting her bank account and money be totally accessible to a man who monitors her computer without her knowledge or permission.
Its not actually what you think, although I did use the key logger in conversation with Airyn this way. It is actually a data retrieval tool that he uses when ever Chipmunk contacts him wanting information from her computer. She has shared the majority of her logins with Airyn out of her inability to remember them. I don't knwo if she has shared all most or just a few, i haven't asked. I suggested that she get and keep a book of web address and her logins, I showed her how Airyn and I keep up with them. She chose to share her info with Airyn. I do not know her logins and have no interest in knowing them. I do not know how they keep up with them.

Airyn does not read her email, instant messages or cell phone messages. He uses other tools that in the 70-90 were considered "hacker tools" that are today used and considered tech support tools. Things like key loggers, browsing trackers, and remote acces are used all over the place. Including by employers.

Airyn is actually totally dependent on me to keep the financial things in order, he has no head for the financial side of life. He keeps up with hom much money he has for his spending and that it. He's not looking to take Chipmunk for whatever money she has. It was something he didn't think all the way through. The account will either be closed or his name will be removed once she has moved out. They are shooting for the end of March. The account they were setting up was ment to be a saving for moving out, getting furniture, and making deposits. He was never supposed to be on a checking with her. Other things were not considered, and opening a joint account where she already has an individual account the bank required both names on both account.


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I'm also concerned, as I read this blog, how is all of this affecting Wolf? . . . And now she's facing her father moving out for half the week.
Wolf is in school from 8am-4pm I go to bed after picking Wolf up from school She see very little of the drama you have read about. She does feel the tension, and stress and will ask whats going on, and I answer her as honestly as I can. She was raised different from me, different from Airyn or Chipmunk. Marrige before sex, sex is dirty, being gay is a sin, NONE of these things were spoken or suggested as normal and ok at home. She asked if the three of us were dating I told her yes. Then she asked if that was normal so we had a discussion on what society considers normal, and what people chose for themselves. She prefers to be different to being normal and is more understanding then I give her credit for.

Airyn talked with her briefly she's excited about having more then one place to call home. She doesn't see it as her father moving out. Airyn would not not see her 2-4 days a week. She will see him every day. Some days he will pick her up from school some days I will, but she will always be able to see her dad. It's something Airyn and I have talked about. I'll not get into the details, but he intends to spend as much time with Wolf after Chipmunk moves out as he does now.


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This situation is clearly hurting everyone, except maybe Airyn. [/B] I believe that nobody here intends to be harsh or cruel, but is speaking out of concern for you.
What I see is that everyone is struggling, Airyn is effected as much as I am, as much as Chipmunk is. We are all effected we all handle it differently.
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Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #137  
Old 02-07-2013, 10:14 PM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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You still don't get it. If she is in a shitty mood, why does he see it as his duty to go and fix her? I don't have anyone ringing my doorbell when I'm in a bad mood and placating me to feel better. Who does? If she's in a bad mood and walks out the door, why can't he simply let her take a walk and cool off by herself? It's her mood, her life, her responsibility. Let her go. He consistently runs to her, coos in her ear, manipulates her into feeling better, but that is stunting her own growth and ability to manage her own emotions. Meanwhile, he is abandoning you to take care of this woman. YES she is a woman, not a child, no matter how immature or inexperienced she is. If he stops trying to fix her and she realizes he isn't going to leave your side to cheer her up anymore, she'll stop pulling that shit to get his attention. If she comes back still in a pissy mood, you just tell her, "Listen, your mood is souring everything and we can't even enjoy being in our own home with you here grumbling and having a tantrum. So please either change it, say what's on your mind, or go somewhere else and stay away from me." You know, like from one adult to another! And if she can't manage her moods and it is just too draining on you for her to live there, the answer is simple - kick her out. But your passive acceptance of Airyn's sharing an apartment and a bank account with her, and planning a handfasting, seems like sheer lunacy.


Again I see this as a misinterpretation.
When someone you care about is angry and making it obvious that you are the reason are you going to ignore that you’ve done something that has hurt them? Sure she should just come out and say what is bothering her, or at least ask Airyn for a private moment to talk about what ever it is. She chooses not to. It really bother Airyn when he thinks he did something, said something that has hurt, upset, or angered someone he cares about.
d go find out what it is, and correct his mistake, or explain his actions.

With this view, hearing you say that he should just ignore Chipmunk’s fowl moods as they are just hers doesn’t fit (for me).
I do feel compelled to respond to this. I am not sure you realize how many times (and it might be more clear especially if you reread your recent posts and add them up) that you've said Airyn has to stop what you're doing because he thinks he is supposed to go make her feel better

And Airyn is not DOING things to make Chipmunk upset. You're both training him that its appropriate to drop everything (including your too rare private time alone) when she is having a bad day, so there is no reason for her to work through her feelings like an adult, or with other friends. I don't call up my husband at work or when he's on a date to tell him I'm unhappy and expect him to drop everything.

Chipmunk is upset because you two are married. Chipmunk is upset when she doesn't get what she wants. Chipmunk gets upset for a lot of reasons, but that part I bolded up above? Do you actually think that each time he walks out to go comfort her, that he has done something bad that he has to fix? If so he must be a horrible partner, and in that case it's certainly not a relationship that makes sense to continue for her. Being that needy is just not healthy. I highly advocate (and I don't get that Nycindie was suggesting other than this too) him going to be with her if there is an actual issue, or a serious problem, but if she cant learn to be with her thoughts for a bit, and wait til their date time (or for two hours) or to send an email summarizing that there's something she wants to talk about.... until they are both free and available to discuss it, then she won't be able to grow into a mature individual.
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  #138  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:46 AM
Livingmybestlife Livingmybestlife is offline
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I have often thought and probably am very wrong here that chipmunk came into this not confused but lying about wanting you. I think her intent all along was to be with airyn.

I think in the beginning alot of the hurt and disregard was due to NRE. I also things got out of control due to Airyn, not regarding your boundaries. You said you needed time. He didn't regard it, maybe because of NRE. I have blamed alot of their behavior on it.

I see Chipmunk as a very immature and manipulative. I remember one occasion where you and airyn had time planned and she went where he asked her not to etc. He spend his time with you worried about you. I see that happen alot. Seems like anytime there is time with you or wolfe there is a problem with chipmunk.

I gucess maybe I am just going to be blunt. Yes, I think you ask if someone is upset. But, when this happens time and time again when do you stop and see the dysfunction, that it is codependence.

I also think that Chipmunk, will never be happy as long as you or anyone else is in the picture.

I really admire you and support you and I hope you keep posting. I also agree with you if you say veto on this airyn will resent you. Sorry to say but I think he is very caring towards her and in a fog with his head up his ass in regards to chipmunk.

You are a smart cookie and you have tried to make boundaries. They are broken or disregarded time after time. I think what airyn takes for granted is he is wearing away at your relationship with him. Maybe you don't see it. I have been in a similar situation. It sucks and right now my primary and I are separated because of it. He needs to understand that.

Big Hugs!
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  #139  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:11 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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I have often thought and probably am very wrong here that chipmunk came into this not confused but lying about wanting you. I think her intent all along was to be with airyn.
That is basically what i told Airyn's mom this past weekend. That Chipmunk wanted Airyn, and that Airyn wanted her after they met in class. Chipmunk may have been interested in "experimenting" like a lot of 20something College students do, but really it has all been about the two of them.

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Originally Posted by Livingmybestlife View Post
I think in the beginning alot of the hurt and disregard was due to NRE. . . I have blamed alot of their behavior on it.

I see Chipmunk as a very immature and manipulative. I remember one occasion where you and airyn had time planned and she went where he asked her not to etc. He spend his time with you worried about you. I see that happen alot. Seems like anytime there is time with you or wolfe there is a problem with chipmunk.
Yes NRE was a big part of the problem in the beginning, but that is no longer an acceptable excuse to me. I think your similar situation lets you see things more clearly.

Immature, and manipulative yes, intentional? maybe. She apparently wants to talk to me today, we'll see how that goes. I'm willing to consider that this is all just her learning and that she doesn't realize that she is as manipulative as her parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Livingmybestlife View Post
I gucess maybe I am just going to be blunt. Yes, I think you ask if someone is upset. But, when this happens time and time again when do you stop and see the dysfunction, that it is codependence.

I also think that Chipmunk, will never be happy as long as you or anyone else is in the picture.

I really admire you and support you and I hope you keep posting. I also agree with you if you say veto on this airyn will resent you.
You are right, Asking after her over and over is co-dependent on him, and her continuing to act out in this way, and expect Airyn to do everything for her is co-dependent on her. I have gone back and forth. I have asked Airyn to let her be, let her decide to participate, or to sit out and pout, and I have allowed him to run to her when she has pouting. So I'm giving mixed messages. Really thought it is more my being tired of fighting, of telling him that he should not do this thing, and him choosing to do it any way.

I agree that Chipmunk will not be happy while I or Wolf are apart of Airyn's life. What Chipmunk seems to want is someone to take care of her, to do everything for her. Someone who will allow her to lounge, and be the couch potato/hermit she calls herself.

I will continue to post, and I am still leaving Airyn's relationship status with Chipmunk up to him. He has to decide that for him self. We are currently negotiating the possibility of a lease (for Airyn and I). If we co-sign with each other again it will be a new engagement period. A chance to start over, and see if we want to live together again as married, or as roommate, or not live together at all.

And to everyone who has pointed their fingers at me, and attempted to call me an abuser, and manipulator. F U.
You are reading the hurt, and feeling I have in this, and assuming that how I feel is how things actually are. I AM NOT A MONSTER! And the posts that say otherwise are making it harder for me to heal my own wounds.

I have admitted that I have made mistakes here, that I have regrets, and guilt. We all created this senario together. No one is wholly to blame, no one is completely innocent. Making choices and decisions from a place of safety, or a place of desperation, or anxiety is still each person decision to make. I am willing to take responsibility for my poor decision, I am not willing to accept the blame for someone else's poor decision.

I have been treated by Chipmunk as if I am a monster, someone to be feared, not someone to talk to, to consider a friend. This treatment as fueled my feelings of being an abuser. Abuser don't feel remorse, and cry on their friends shoulders, they look for more victims. I know what abuse is, and I have been emotionally/mental abused in this. Perhaps not intentionally, but that is still what has been happening (I am not saying that I am the only one either). I am working through it, and deciding where I will go and what I will do from here.

If this situation had been one where I had changed my mind, and had decided that I wasn't Bi you would all be reacting very differently to this blog.

And to those of you who ave helped me weither I wanted to hear what you had to say or not. THANKS. You know how you are, and I appreciate it.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married

Last edited by Numina; 02-11-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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  #140  
Old 02-11-2013, 04:40 PM
Livingmybestlife Livingmybestlife is offline
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Is airyn. Aware of how fragile your relationship is at this point. Have u spoken to him. About codependence. Perhaps that book codependence no more may help.


I hate to say this but this reminds me of a case of marrying young and not appreciating what you have. I. Wonder if he can be present with u and while chipmunk is at. Her place.

Hugs
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