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  #121  
Old 02-05-2013, 04:44 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default All caught up.

It's a lot to read, but then a lot has happened in the last three weeks or so.

Things are looking up for me. Airyn understands what I really want with him, and understands why I'm willing to be ok with him having a girl friend. That I do love him, and I want him to be happy, and that I've been trying to find a place for me to be happy inside of what he wants.

I'm still open to the possibilities, and I've told him the he and Chipmunk have burned a lot of bridges, a lot of possibilities. That it wasn't just one thing or one person, but a lot has happened, and lot has been damaged, and I'm still working my way through a lot of things. I told Airyn yesterday that I can see things getting better, that with things working better between eh and I all I can do is work on the rest of the issue stressing me out till they get better two. I told him that I figure something will take longer then other, but that over all i feel better.
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Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #122  
Old 02-05-2013, 05:35 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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I was on as a secondary owner of a bank account opened by my ex. She closed it but had some unpaid fees. As a result of my name being on the account, my credit which is overall very good had been badly dinged by the unpaid fees. Now I have to go prove we paid this fees and go through the entire painful process to fix my credit.

I could not tell if your husband did put his name on her bank account. And it doesn't matter what type of account it is. All can affect Chipmunk's credit which will affect Airyn's credit which will affect your credit since you two are married.

If she has any credit problems now or in the future it will hurt your credit.
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  #123  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:23 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
I was on as a secondary owner of a bank account opened by my ex. She closed it but had some unpaid fees. As a result of my name being on the account, my credit which is overall very good had been badly dinged by the unpaid fees. Now I have to go prove we paid this fees and go through the entire painful process to fix my credit.

I could not tell if your husband did put his name on her bank account. And it doesn't matter what type of account it is. All can affect Chipmunk's credit which will affect Airyn's credit which will affect your credit since you two are married.

If she has any credit problems now or in the future it will hurt your credit.

I've been thinking about this a lot. Just a Guy is going to Law school and I've been picking his brain on this as much as I can.

Months ago Chipmunk and I considered opening a checking account together, but we (or I wanted I should say) wanted to use an online back that I already have accounts with. This bank only allows one checking account, so I wasn't able to open it.

I felt that since I was originally ok with a joint checking account with Chipmunk that I couldn't very well be not ok with a a joint savings account.

I'm not sure how to have him remove his name with out causing serious stress. Right now Chipmunk feels like the apartment she'll be getting is "their" apartment. Airyn isn't going to be signing anything else as a co-signer with her, but he may have his name as an occupant on her lease. Like I have Wolf as an occupant on my lease. Not sure if that will work.

Basically I told him that anything he signs with her not only are they 100% financially responsible, but I am 100% financially responsible. I also told him that the flip side of this means that since he signed it and has 100% control, that I also have 100% control. I think saying it like that may make it easier to get Chipmunk to back down from wanting Airyn's name on everything she signs up for.

I may tell her that since they now have a joint account, and any mistakes she makes will now effect me that she has to show me everything that is going on with the account. Which is a level of control that I don't want, and she won't appreciate. I'll talk with Airyn more about it and see if we can get an agreement that once she has her apartment she remove Airyn from the account (or closes it). And save her money in an account that is just hers.

Sadly it's not just my decision to make.
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Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #124  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:24 PM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
I felt that since I was originally ok with a joint checking account with Chipmunk that I couldn't very well be not ok with a a joint savings account.
Of course you can change your mind.

Did she finish paying the money back she put on your credit card? If not, that's certainly an extra strong reason to not co-anything with her until she's proved she is responsible. I'd sure be looking long term at any possible negatives it could end up having for you and Airyn and Wolf (like if there are college loans in the future and your credit has been affected by something she did or didn't do), and you were very right about it being a potential problem when it comes to buying a house.
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  #125  
Old 02-06-2013, 03:47 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Oh my god. Getting her an apartment? Helping her financially even more than you have already? Convincing her not to break up with him when that was your opportunity to be free of her? Handfasting? That is nuts! How can you be okay with any of that? Kick her out already. She needs to be on her own and to grow up. But she doesn't need her own fucking apartment, she can find a roommate situation and pay for it herself. Jeez, he even has to monitor all her reactions and talk to her about every single emotion she has. She may be immature and unreliable, but -- and I've said this before -- Airyn has serious control issues. How can you possibly tolerate this any longer, Numina? Seriously, I had the hardest time reading all of these latest posts, but your last few -- I am stunned. I worry for you!
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  #126  
Old 02-06-2013, 01:32 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Oh my god. Getting her an apartment? Helping her financially even more than you have already? Convincing her not to break up with him when that was your opportunity to be free of her? Handfasting? That is nuts! How can you be okay with any of that? Kick her out already. She needs to be on her own and to grow up. But she doesn't need her own fucking apartment, she can find a roommate situation and pay for it herself. Jeez, he even has to monitor all her reactions and talk to her about every single emotion she has. She may be immature and unreliable, but -- and I've said this before -- Airyn has serious control issues. How can you possibly tolerate this any longer, Numina? Seriously, I had the hardest time reading all of these latest posts, but your last few -- I am stunned. I worry for you!
Nycindie,
The majority of your post (on my blog, or in the other forums) that I read you a negative, or pessimistic view. Many times vastly different from how I read the same OP's posts, and also very off from how the other participants have responded. I find this odd, and bewildering.

First I am not getting her an apartment. She is getting her own apartment in her own name, with Airyn possibly on as an occupant, just like Wolf is on my lease as an occupant. That you think I am getting her an own apartment tells me you didn't hear me or understand me. (I feel like a broken record I've been tell Airyn this kind of thing for a long while)

I DID NOT talk her into not breaking up with Airyn. Airyn did that and told me about it later. That you think I talked her into not breaking up with Airyn shows me you did not read and understand.

Fandfasting isnít not legally binding, and if you took the time to read my post youíll see I told Airyn to wait 3-6 months after she has had her own apartment. Heís talking next Fall or Spring, and itís JUST TALK. It's a fantasy Chipmunk has had from the beginning.

She can find a roommate if she wants, but she DOES NEED her own fucking apartment, what she doesnít need is to be living with ME.

As far as this being my opportunity to be "free of her" you are very much wrong there. And have again shown a lack of understanding in what you've read. I have told Airyn what I want, and I have acknowledged that I understand what Airyn wants. I have talked with Airyn about find a place for me to be happy within what he wants. We talked about my want being an unreasonable request on him, and that some sort of compromise has to happen. That compromise was FORCED on Airyn by me in what could be viewed as an ultimatum. I told him that he has to decide what he wants. If what he wants is to have Chipmunk as his girlfriend then she has to move out, but if what he wants is for it to be ok for her to live with me then he has to break up with her. He chose to have her as his girl friend. I can not expect him to break up with Chipmunk I know he's in love with her, and I'm not willing to deal with regret, resentment, or the potential for them to continue their relationship in secret.

Airyn does not ďmonitorĒ all Chipmunkís reactions or emotions. He spoke to her about her moody, sadness making things uncomfortable in the house when he is spending the day with ME. Practically every time Airyn and I have time together when she is around she gets moody and depressive. He was telling her to be cool and that it stresses him out when she canít be cool. Itís not a control issue itís Airyn doing what he thinks he can to make life more comfortable. He's attempting to keep Chipmunkís bad moods from ruin our time together, or pulling his attention away from doing something with me to fix what ever is wrong with Chipmunk THIS time.

How can you call it "every single emotion" when Airyn talks with Chipmunk about her being ok at home on a day he is spending with me after reading all these months of her moodiness ruining what could have been a good day for Airyn an I. How many months now have I complained that a shitty mood of Chipmunks has pulled Airyn to her side while he attempts to cheer her up, or calm her down, or what ever.

I come to these forums to read other Poly's stories to learn from other people adventures, and to leave my story behind. If you don't understand, or have a question then ask your question. Please avoid pessimistic assumption I have enough of that within and around me.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #127  
Old 02-06-2013, 01:34 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
Of course you can change your mind.

Did she finish paying the money back she put on your credit card? If not, that's certainly an extra strong reason to not co-anything with her until she's proved she is responsible. I'd sure be looking long term at any possible negatives it could end up having for you and Airyn and Wolf (like if there are college loans in the future and your credit has been affected by something she did or didn't do), and you were very right about it being a potential problem when it comes to buying a house.
Thanks for that Anneitherain. You are right I can change my mind. This is a subject I'm still working on. Something to discuss more with Airyn. He and I did talk about it last night, and have started working on a compromise, but I'll save the details till we iron things out.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #128  
Old 02-06-2013, 02:42 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
I come to these forums to read other Poly's stories to learn from other people adventures, and to leave my story behind. If you don't understand, or have a question then ask your question. Please avoid pessimistic assumption I have enough of that within and around me.
Hi Numina,
I am sorry for the harshness of my response. My reaction was only out of concern for you, so I am sorry for having been such a "doomsayer" about all this. I want to be supportive, but when I read what you wrote, I couldn't contain my incredulousness at what is transpiring. With the post about her moving out, I was very hopeful for you, and then when you wrote about him sharing a bank account with her and them handfasting, it blew my mind, like it is all going backwards again. Plus, I have been very suspicious of her motives since you started writing about Chipmunk. If Airyn didn't have a place for her to stay and offer some security to Chipmunk, I doubt she'd have stuck around in this relationship with him as long as she has. I am sorry if that upsets you. If we were face-to-face, I'd be buying you a drink!

You have more patience than I could ever have, and that says a lot because I am a very patient person. I did read and understand your posts - I know the handfasting won't be right away, and when I said she doesn't need her own apartment, I just meant it doesn't have to be in her own name - wouldn't it be quicker if she looked for a room somewhere and lived with a regular roommate (someone she isn't having sex with)? Then, at least, you wouldn't have to wait as long for her to save up money to do it, since an apartment share would surely be cheaper than getting a place on her own. The idea that she should have her own apartment right away seems rather unrealistic to me. Ultimately I just don't see how you can continue to put up with the situation you have now - I would have changed the locks and put her things out a long time ago, because isn't the important thing to get her out of your space? So, that's why I think she can just look for a share situation and not wait to get a lease.

And I don't see why Airyn wants to be involved in her bank account, it just doesn't make sense to me at all if the goal is for her to be independent. It seems so... parental. My comments about him being controlling are not just about the last few posts, but an overall thing he seems to do, keeping her in check, wanting her to do certain things, asking you to say or not say certain things to her, it is all over the place and I am puzzled how you cannot see it -- but perhaps it is simply an interpretation of the written word and only coming across that way to me? You are very detailed in your writing and so maybe it just seems he is trying to control a lot because we are reading the details of so many conversations. I don't think you need to change how you write, I will try to change how I read it. However, there are glaring GLARING problems you seem to brush off in deference to Airyn and it seems so detrimental to everyone involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post
How can you call it "every single emotion" when Airyn talks with Chipmunk about her being ok at home on a day he is spending with me after reading all these months of her moodiness ruining what could have been a good day for Airyn an I. How many months now have I complained that a shitty mood of Chipmunks has pulled Airyn to her side while he attempts to cheer her up, or calm her down, or what ever.
You still don't get it. If she is in a shitty mood, why does he see it as his duty to go and fix her? I don't have anyone ringing my doorbell when I'm in a bad mood and placating me to feel better. Who does? If she's in a bad mood and walks out the door, why can't he simply let her take a walk and cool off by herself? It's her mood, her life, her responsibility. Let her go. He consistently runs to her, coos in her ear, manipulates her into feeling better, but that is stunting her own growth and ability to manage her own emotions. Meanwhile, he is abandoning you to take care of this woman. YES she is a woman, not a child, no matter how immature or inexperienced she is. If he stops trying to fix her and she realizes he isn't going to leave your side to cheer her up anymore, she'll stop pulling that shit to get his attention. If she comes back still in a pissy mood, you just tell her, "Listen, your mood is souring everything and we can't even enjoy being in our own home with you here grumbling and having a tantrum. So please either change it, say what's on your mind, or go somewhere else and stay away from me." You know, like from one adult to another! And if she can't manage her moods and it is just too draining on you for her to live there, the answer is simple - kick her out. But your passive acceptance of Airyn's sharing an apartment and a bank account with her, and planning a handfasting, seems like sheer lunacy.

All of this you endure because "they're in love?" I wouldn't call any of what is going on with them love, in my book. In actuality, the person I've felt most sorry for in all this has been Chipmunk. She had all this expectation placed on her to satisfy both you and Airyn in your desire for a triad, and whenever she shows any sign of knowing her own mind, you are disappointed and lecture her. And you both then try to micro-manage her life so she can fit better into yours. She likely will never fill the role that Airyn wants for her, either. Neither one of you have treated her like an adult nor individual in her own right. It's all been about you or him. It's like you both find reasons to get upset that she doesn't function in your life the way she was supposed to. But what about her life? And what does this teach Wolf about adult relationships? The biggest problem for both you and Chipmunk is Airyn. He clearly comes across as one of the most controlling spouses I've ever read about in my almost three years of participating in this forum.

Some of my posts may have been hard for you to read, or seemed that I was misunderstanding you, but I've actually been contacted by several other members here privately about what I have written here in your thread. People have told me they would have written what I posted if I hadn't, but that simply reading your story exhausted them, wore them out, and that the situation seems like such a train wreck, no one knows exactly what to say. Please know that my "negativity" is meant to save you from disaster. I'm sorry. I do have compassion for you, but I'm just trying to shake you because it seems like you're not able to see what so many others here do see. But I won't post here anymore, if that is what you prefer.
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Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 02-07-2013 at 02:31 AM.
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  #129  
Old 02-06-2013, 04:25 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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You know, I read something on this board, have a strong reaction to what I've read, decide not to post my strong reaction for various reasons, and then NYCindie goes and says what I was thinking. Just happened again.

I didn't post my reactions because I've said some brutal things to you in the course of this thread. You've been gracious enough to consider them. But you are a grown woman who makes up her own mind and I figured, at some point, there is little point in posting my rants on your situation. It's not my life, you're the one who has to deal with the consequences, etc.

So here's the rant. I completely understand if you ignore it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post
Airyn: As I recall I was angry about more then one thing. Like you reading my letter before I gave you permission. And she is moving it's the plan, it's a done deal.

Me: I'm sorry you were angry, are you still angry?

Airyn: I guess not, I'm trying not to think about it.

Me: Hmm. I know that feeling. Not thinking about the things that bother you.
Tell me does Chipmunk know that you have a key logger on her computer?

Airyn: Are you trying to justify reading my letter early?

Me: No Just asking a question.

Airyn: No not specifically, but she knows I can see everything she types, just not how I do it.

Me: Do you still feel that you have nothing to hide?

Airyn: silence

Airyn and I have always had access to each others informations. Logins and passwords to everything. We have one book with all our login and passwords saved in it. We've talked about this many many times. Airyn has always maintained that he has nothing to hide, and I have said the same thing. When we were teens I used to write things and leave it in places for him to find. He used to go through my things and read the notes I left him. I think this was the first time that Airyn truly realized there is a trust issue between us. It's an issue that has been building for months. Starting back when Chipmunk was working much farther away, and getting worse when he obviously deleted messages he sent her from my phone back in November. As well as a few other incidents.
WTF with the key logger!! That is not normal. Do you realize that is not normal? Did he do that to you in the course of your relationship? Why does he have a key logger on her computer? Do you have a key logger when Wolf uses the computer? While I don't agree with that, it is more understandable - you want to monitor what your child is doing online.

CHIPMUNK IS NOT A CHILD. And it doesn't matter she kinda sorta knows about it. She doesn't have a clue what a healthy relationship looks like. And I am really starting to believe that Airyn, at least with Chipmunk and maybe with you, doesn't either.

It's one thing when a couple shares their log-ons and passwords with each other. But actively monitoring a lover's computer activity via a key logger is at best controlling and at worst abusive. What is he looking for? Is he checking to see if she is cheating? Even if he is justifying this by trying to save her from herself somehow, this is unacceptable behavior by a loved one. I would not tolerate this in any relationship. It really bothers me that you do, and that Chipmunk does. This is never, ever something you would do with a trusted partner, a loved one, in a healthy relationship.

Also that thing about reading his letter before he gave you 'permission'. That reeks of control issues too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post
I'm not sure how to have him remove his name with out causing serious stress. Right now Chipmunk feels like the apartment she'll be getting is "their" apartment. Airyn isn't going to be signing anything else as a co-signer with her, but he may have his name as an occupant on her lease. Like I have Wolf as an occupant on my lease. Not sure if that will work.

Basically I told him that anything he signs with her not only are they 100% financially responsible, but I am 100% financially responsible. I also told him that the flip side of this means that since he signed it and has 100% control, that I also have 100% control. I think saying it like that may make it easier to get Chipmunk to back down from wanting Airyn's name on everything she signs up for.

I may tell her that since they now have a joint account, and any mistakes she makes will now effect me that she has to show me everything that is going on with the account. Which is a level of control that I don't want, and she won't appreciate. I'll talk with Airyn more about it and see if we can get an agreement that once she has her apartment she remove Airyn from the account (or closes it). And save her money in an account that is just hers.

Sadly it's not just my decision to make.
You will have even more serious stress when your credit is downgraded and you can't get a car loan at a decent rate, or refinance your home without extra points and higher interest, or Wolf can't get a college loan through her parents. This can all happen. I'm struggling to refinance in part because of the credit ding (there are other things going on there too, like the huge drop in the value of my home but it is a factor).

Also this business about you having 100% control over Chipmunk's finances, and seeing everything. That will never work. She won't agree to that, nor should she. My ex is mature, stable, and manages her mental health (she is bipolar). Chipmunk is none of that. (I hope she grows into that. I do. But she ain't there now.) What happens if/when her and Airyn's relationship flames out?

Suck it up and cause stress now, before your financial future is harmed.

This whole thing about opening a bank account and having him on the lease in some way allows her to play house and have him as her 'husband' for a few days a week. She does not need a bank account in both their names to be Airyn's girlfriend. Having his name on the lease in some way does not make him more of a boyfriend. They will still have 'their' space because, well they will spend time in that space being boyfriend and girlfriend. Someone more emotionally mature would know that but she is not clearly not there.

Why is Airyn supporting this? Does he not see the financial risk he is putting you and Wolf in? I suspect it is because he does not think she will stay with him unless he takes care of her in some way. And I believe he is right - she may well dump him if he stops being so unbelievably codependent and treats her like an actual adult. He can be her boyfriend and support and love her - and allow her to make mistakes, maybe learn from them and grow up.

This whole thing is so disturbingly parental - and not in a good way. This is how messed up parents act when they want their children to remain dependent. This probably seems normal to Chipmunk but it is really worrying that it seems normal to Airyn. Does he realize this is harmful to her? And him? And you? How he is acting now helps to keep her dependent, needy and moody. He is spending a buttload of time managing and massaging her moods. This prevents her from learning to manage her own moods. Yes, he should be supportive of her - this shit is hard to learn for everyone. But he is externalizing the work she needs to do internally. He can model good emotional behavior for her - except he does not seem to know good emotional behavior right now.

He likely enjoys being her white knight and saving her from all the bad things but it is terribly destructive. It damages him, her and you and might well end up costing your marriage, as well as their relationship.

As for it not being your decision, yes, technically true. But there are consequences when the actions of a partner may cause harm to you, your marriage, your future and your child's future.

He can choose not to remove his name from the account. And you can divorce him. Extreme yes. Not what you want, yes. I know he does not want to leave you either. Maybe you can divorce and still be partners and parents together. Maybe re-marry when he recovers from losing his fucking mind. But this situation may come to the point where you may need to chose to protect yourself and your daughter first.

I was also hopeful when I read that Chipmunk had decided to move out. I am glad you put your foot down on that. Moving out will help with many of the issues. However, it won't solve the fact that their relationship is a destructive, unhealthy one and that he is codependent and controlling. And this reality will continue to negatively impact you and your relationship with him. If he is not willing to face his behaviors and decisions, well, you may have unpleasant choices to make.
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  #130  
Old 02-06-2013, 05:25 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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I haven't chosen to respond here lately because I haven't been up to reading all the posts, so, while things I've noticed here and there have seemed worrying in ways not dissimilar to what Nyc had to say (a lot of parental-type involvement in her life, would probably be healthier to step back significantly and NOT be on her lease, etc.), it seemed like a mistake to comment without the full picture. But I have been glancing, and just noticed the key logger thing thanks to Opal pointing it out above. I just wanted to agree that, yeah, that doesn't seem at all ok to me. Like, that borders on emotional abuse in my book. People deserve some level of privacy, and do NOT deserve to have monitoring devices and/or software on their devices without their full knowledge. Either she's an adult, and this is a violation, or she's a child, in which case having a relationship with her at ALL is creepy and wrong As Opal said, her being sort of aware of it doesn't make something that intrusive ok. I wonder if he'd leave it on even after she left your house (again, not that it's ok just because she's in your house!). :[
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