Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-03-2010, 07:46 PM
vampiresscammy vampiresscammy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Michigan, United States
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post

What life values and beliefs do you feel you need to have present and shared in order for your relationships to be successful? And what is your personal definition of a "successful relationship"?

~Raven~
(quoting this part here as I'm seeing it as being the 'big question' te respond to)

for me, they would be the same regardless if your a perspective love or friend or somewhere in the middle

no lies - this to me is crucial and i define this as being no big/important info type of lies, big stuff being things that do effect the other person in the relationship, little whie lies being said to spare someone's feelings cause it simply doesn't matter what you say (like yes i love your dress even when you think it really looks hideous) is NOT the same thing to me

being GLBT friendly or non homophobic or however one chooses to phrase it, if you have an issue with folks being gay/queer/gender disphoric/confused/bi/trans or some variation there of we would not get along in any respect

being mean or abusive outside of set agreed upon ruled times or places like "playing" or "sceneing" during sex

when its pointed out someone has an issue with certain things like say men drinking whiskey in their presence, either an effort is made to not drink in front of said person or baby steps are taken to prove to said person that this individual is not an agry/abusive/scary drunk

both individuals agree to be willign to try to compromise on any other issues they may not see eye to eye on, or at the very least will refrain from aggressively picking on each other about said disagreeing

having some level of attraction, perhaps its just me, but i really have a hard time being a true friend or more with someone i'm not the slightest bit attracted to

to me the definition of a successful relationship would be one where those involved truly care for one another and encourage them and respect one another and are the best friend or lover to each other that they can be
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-04-2010, 12:59 AM
DrunkenPorcupine's Avatar
DrunkenPorcupine DrunkenPorcupine is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 175
Default

Quote:
Outside of wanting many partners and restricting partners to one, are there really differences between these mindsets?
I think yes, there are. Though, maybe there's something more specific there, the idea of "defaults" create differences.

Mono (on this forum) doesn't call himself a polyamorist but he recognizes that love CAN exist between two or more people without limiting or negating the love that those same people can have with OTHER people.

So Mono doesn't see monogamy as a "default"; it's just not his thing.

There are some people who see monogamy as a default, and it (in my eyes) taints their relationships.

The whole "sex thing" is a very, very small part of the development I've undergone since becoming poly and LIVING poly. What has really been amazing is how I no longer feel restricted, not socially and not internally, for letting relationships being what they will be.

I've had 'crushes' again, and felt great talking about them. I'm feeling that amazing "falling in love" again and it's something I once thought I'd never experience or share again without a tragedy first.

But that bothers some of my mono friends. To them, sex and love are so tightly tied to the "default" of monogamy that my very presence threatens them, or more so, makes them face their own insecurities.

For instance, I have a hetero-mono couple that are friends of mine. And I trust the lady quite a bit and by extensions, I've discussed some things in their company that are more intimate than I'd mention elsewhere to just 'a couple of friends'.

One of those things was that I no longer consider my personal relationships "capped". People I love and trust don't have to be sidelined for fear of making my wife uncomfortable. I no longer have to toss that "I'm married" disclaimer in when I flirt, because it doesn't matter. If the relationship MIGHT "go there", it CAN go there and still be a-okay.

But shortly after that discussion, the male friend of that couple became a bit guarded. To him, the idea that I don't INSTINCTIVELY cap the possibility of my relationship makes him feel threatened. This is an issue, since he's feeling insecure and that's not a poly/mono thing, but the reason behind triggering his insecurity DOES fall into the area I would consider "a value difference" between monogamy and polyamory.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-04-2010, 01:16 AM
LovingRadiance's Avatar
LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alaska
Posts: 4,807
Default

I have very few "deal-breakers" for a long term relationship. But I can say that the people who have remained in my life for years-all have common ground with one another.

I know for sure that I don't deal well with people who have an inability to accept gay/bi or other races or interracial people.

After that-there are many things I don't do-but the people whom I love do. Its certainly EASIER if they can accept that as well as I do.

That hasn't always worked out either but so long as I can see that they are working on themselves and progressing along the line of better-ment for themselves, I can generally accept most any "fault".
__________________
"Love As Thou Wilt"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-04-2010, 01:31 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post
There are some people who see monogamy as a default, and it (in my eyes) taints their relationships.
That's certainly true. And there are also a lot of people who don't see it that way.

Quote:
But that bothers some of my mono friends. To them, sex and love are so tightly tied to the "default" of monogamy that my very presence threatens them, or more so, makes them face their own insecurities.
And I have plenty of mono friends who are not bothered by such things yet are still very monogamous. They are not threatened by polyamory and have healthy thriving monogamous relationships.

Quote:
But shortly after that discussion, the male friend of that couple became a bit guarded. To him, the idea that I don't INSTINCTIVELY cap the possibility of my relationship makes him feel threatened. This is an issue, since he's feeling insecure and that's not a poly/mono thing, but the reason behind triggering his insecurity DOES fall into the area I would consider "a value difference" between monogamy and polyamory.
I'm going to disagree there. I would tend to think that the reason behind the triggering is a lack of understanding of a perspective that is very different from his. I don't see a fundamental value at play in that situation. As I said earlier, I know plenty of people who identify as monogamous or live monogamously who do not feel threatened by relationship styles that don't resemble theirs. Does this fact mean that they must not holding to some monogamous value because they don't experience this?

I would generally think no. I don't know of any value tied to monogamy that involves being closed-minded or threatened by other relationship styles or any monogamous value that would lead to such feelings. Now it could very well be that there are a lot of closed-minded people who are threatened by other relationship styles who happen to be monogamous, but it is not some monogamous value that makes them so. It could be that their closed-mindedness results in them considering monogamy as the only way and causing them to dismiss or be threatened by any alternative relationship style, but that is not their monogamy that causes that.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-04-2010, 01:39 AM
MonoVCPHG's Avatar
MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Redpepper's heart
Posts: 4,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post
Mono (on this forum) doesn't call himself a polyamorist but he recognizes that love CAN exist between two or more people without limiting or negating the love that those same people can have with OTHER people..
Absolutely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post

So Mono doesn't see monogamy as a "default"; it's just not his thing...
Just a slight correction my friend. Monogamy definitely is my thing and although I don't see it as a default for all people, I do see it as a default for most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post
To them, sex and love are so tightly tied to the "default" of monogamy that my very presence threatens them, or more so, makes them face their own insecurities.
Sex and love are definitely tied to monogamy for me as well. The difference in perspective between mono and poly is that where one sees insecurities the other does not. I don't see someone wanting sexual exclusivity as an insecurity or weakness. I see insecurities in people who fear the mere thought of their partner having a Friend of the opposite sex, not in them wanting their partner not to have sex with that friend. Monogamy is founded on exclusivity not insecurity. To me it is the core of monogamous commitment although I recognize that this is not the case for non-monogamous relationships such as my own

I also recognize that sex means different things to different people. Where one person can see it as a pinnacle of communication, another can see it as play, no right or wrong, just difference.

Peace and Love
Mono
__________________

Playing the Game of Life with Monopoly rules.
Monogamy might just be in my genes

Poly Events All Over
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-04-2010, 01:41 AM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I don't know of any value tied to monogamy that involves being closed-minded or threatened by other relationship styles or any monogamous value that would lead to such feelings. Now it could very well be that there are a lot of closed-minded people who are threatened by other relationship styles who happen to be monogamous, but it is not some monogamous value that makes them so. It could be that their closed-mindedness results in them considering monogamy as the only way and causing them to dismiss or be threatened by any alternative relationship style, but that is not their monogamy that causes that.
I absolutely 100% agree with you there, Ceoli. I have seen intolerance in monogamous and poly circles towards a particular love-style - I don't think that it is a monogamous trait at all.

Starting to attach those sorts of highly negative traits to monogamous relationships is dangerous, because not every monogamous couple is the same in terms of their relationship style or their outlook towards people who are different. It also can lead to broad, sweeping generalizations that would naturally put anybody on the defensive.

When I come across a lack of acceptance I always see it as the individual not accepting it, not as a monogamous thing.
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-04-2010, 02:18 AM
DrunkenPorcupine's Avatar
DrunkenPorcupine DrunkenPorcupine is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 175
Default

Quote:
And I have plenty of mono friends who are not bothered by such things yet are still very monogamous. They are not threatened by polyamory and have healthy thriving monogamous relationships.
You're certainly a contrarian, Ceoli. I say that as a compliment.

Thanks for challenging me on this. I thoght I'd made it clear, explaining "the talk" but perhaps I'm not. My friend isn't challenged by polyamory. I think he's challenged by how polyamory for me has caused me not to limit my relationships. I don't mean this to imply that monogamous folks CAN'T have fullfilling relationships or anything like that.

But my "poly awakening" and the change in how I view relationship boundaries are innately connected. It's my stance on those boundaries, which I connect to my own polyamory, which I think he's threatened by.

Quote:
I'm going to disagree there. I would tend to think that the reason behind the triggering is a lack of understanding of a perspective that is very different from his. I don't see a fundamental value at play in that situation. As I said earlier, I know plenty of people who identify as monogamous or live monogamously who do not feel threatened by relationship styles that don't resemble theirs.
I'm not sure where I wrote this, and not even sure I have on this forum but... I can't speak of something "authoritatively" unless it's my own. So when I mention differences between polyamory and monogamy, I'm speaking of my experience with them, not with the nebulous thigns that are "poly" and "mono". I mean, at the very core, both poly and mono revolve around how INDIVIDUALS relate and I'm very much an individualist. So I ALWAYS imply an "in my experience" or "my opinion is" in every statement I make. There are exceptions to every rule when it comes to complex people, and I fully recognize that. I don't mean to paint all people in a collective with the same brush, I merely mean to share my experiences on the subject.

Quote:
Does this fact mean that they must not holding to some monogamous value because they don't experience this?
To kind of mesh up your point, my point, the "no such thing as poly realtionships" thread, and to reveal an additional detail this might matter to this specific story. She was introduced to me as "poly". I've gotten to know her a lot better since then, but... She's very sexually and emotively open, and I think SHE identifies as poly in a mono relationship. This kind of adds to (and makes it all the more important) in my mind. She doesn't feel I'm hitting on her, but HE does. She self-identifies as poly, but he does not. The insecurity may very well be at the root of the relationships (stripping any terms from them) - she's getting close to me and I close to her while I'm NOT getting close to him in the same level or manner as I am with him AND she identifies as being open to multiple love interests while he does not.

I think I've lost my point right now, but meh... You can ignore lines if they bore ya.

Quote:
Now it could very well be that there are a lot of closed-minded people who are threatened by other relationship styles who happen to be monogamous, but it is not some monogamous value that makes them so.
I'll agree, though refer back to the "my experience" disclaimer. I've never had a mono couple that I liked feel uncomfortable by the fact that I'm poly. So no, "poly" doesn't cause mono minds to melt. But every time I've loved someone who is in a mono relationship, there has ALWAYS been some form of issue. In some, we've been able to work them out and re-assure each other. But there's always been that moment where hackles raise. Again, I'm only speaking of my experience, not intending to paint folks with broad brushes.

Quote:
Just a slight correction my friend. Monogamy definitely is my thing and although I don't see it as a default for all people, I do see it as a default for most.
Sorry, that was actually a typo. I think you got my drift, thanks for helping clarify.

Quote:
Sex and love are definitely tied to monogamy for me as well. The difference in perspective between mono and poly is that where one sees insecurities the other does not. I don't see someone wanting sexual exclusivity as an insecurity or weakness.
Agreed. And that you say this, perhaps I should explain a bit more. I've had frank sexual discussions with the female friend in this couple. She's my best friend, for so many reasons, and I think it would be very odd not to go there at some point. But we're not sex partners. I understand FULLY that she's committed to her relationship with her boyfriend and that that puts sex off-limits for us. I respect her values, though I don't respect the "default". I wouldn't have sex with her because I know she'd regret it as long as she's committed to that relationship. But I don't respect that "you shouldn't because she's dating him".

In this specific case, I'm INTIMATE with her, but I'm not sexual. And in my point, I tied the "sex, love and monogamy" thing. In his eyes, intimacy is a stop towards sex and sex is a step towards infidelity. He's made this known indirectly, and said things that make me think that my INTIMACY with her is threatening what he sees as their fidelity. That's why I linked the sex and intimacy thing. I link them one way - sex is always intimate for me. But I don't go the other way, intimacy does NOT imply sex. I think for him (and others that I've had experiences with) he DOES link them.

Quote:
I have seen intolerance in monogamous and poly circles towards a particular love-style
That's an entirely different subject. My first joining a poly community resulted with me being fairly quickly told to "move along" because I wasn't interested in forming a poly "family".

So yeah, it's not reserved to one or the other. :P
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-04-2010, 02:27 AM
MonoVCPHG's Avatar
MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Redpepper's heart
Posts: 4,742
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post

In this specific case, I'm INTIMATE with her, but I'm not sexual. And in my point, I tied the "sex, love and monogamy" thing. In his eyes, intimacy is a stop towards sex and sex is a step towards infidelity. He's made this known indirectly, and said things that make me think that my INTIMACY with her is threatening what he sees as their fidelity. That's why I linked the sex and intimacy thing. I link them one way - sex is always intimate for me. But I don't go the other way, intimacy does NOT imply sex. I think for him (and others that I've had experiences with) he DOES link them.



P
Now I got it! Totally agree and it ties into my idea of insecurity I think. I have a friend who is fully aware of my relationship but does not want his wife to find out because he is sure she will not be happy with him hanging around with me. I also find some of my monogamous friends threatened by the mere thought of non-monogamy which does imply something amiss in their own relationships. I think this also ties in with why some men are very homophobic...they question their "straightness" so to speak and therefore they are threatened by the presence of gay/bi men. I'm straight but have no issue with bi or gay men (I'm not completely without experiences).

Thanks for clarifying my Friend..take care
__________________

Playing the Game of Life with Monopoly rules.
Monogamy might just be in my genes

Poly Events All Over
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-04-2010, 02:53 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post
My friend isn't challenged by polyamory. I think he's challenged by how polyamory for me has caused me not to limit my relationships.
I'm not sure I understand this distinction you're making.


Quote:
I'm not sure where I wrote this, and not even sure I have on this forum but... I can't speak of something "authoritatively" unless it's my own. So when I mention differences between polyamory and monogamy, I'm speaking of my experience with them, not with the nebulous thigns that are "poly" and "mono". I mean, at the very core, both poly and mono revolve around how INDIVIDUALS relate and I'm very much an individualist. So I ALWAYS imply an "in my experience" or "my opinion is" in every statement I make. There are exceptions to every rule when it comes to complex people, and I fully recognize that. I don't mean to paint all people in a collective with the same brush, I merely mean to share my experiences on the subject.
I've often seen abuse of the "in my experience" qualifier as a way to absolve ideas from being examined or questioned because it comes from their experience (I'm not saying that you're doing that, though). However, many times the ideas that are generated by an experience seek to define what lies beyond that experience. You offered your experience that lead to your reasoning for why you think there may be mono values. So in a way, you're seeking to use your experience to define something beyond your experience.

A simplistic exaggerated example would be something like this: "In my experience, men have always been the cheating type." That kind of statement implies that men are prone to cheating as evidence of my experience without lending credence to the fact that my experience is very limited in that situation. If that got questioned, it would be the idea that men are prone to cheating that gets questioned. I wouldn't be questioning whether the person making that statement actually really experienced being cheated on by a man. Certainly some men are the cheating type. But one person's experience isn't sufficient to define the nature of men in general.

There's nothing wrong with using our experience to draw conclusions since that's how we as human beings live and learn in this world. However, even though the genesis of the idea may be in your experience, it can still be examined when it starts defining that which goes beyond it. In fact, it's great that it can be, because experiences are limited by their very nature. To question and examine that offers a broader view that goes beyond one's own experience and that can only add to the strength of an idea.

Oftentimes, examining such ideas is seen as trying to subvert an experience or an opinion. I appreciate that you're seeing this as a dialogue.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-04-2010, 08:48 AM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,632
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
Outside of wanting many partners and restricting partners to one, are there really differences between these mindsets?
There are differences I think, but one similarity is the fact that their is love there that both parties wish to protect. In any relationship there is a beginning stage where there is a struggle to protect it as much as a relief to find that it is protected. For both parties alike, the path is the same, it's matter of figuring out whether the person that is the object of that love loves you back and that the way that small ember can be protected in order to grow is negotiated.

For mono folk that comes with a set of rules that can be relied upon... that is a difference. Sure those rules can still be made ones own, but they are rules that have been passed on for generations with only slight changes having been made. For poly folk those rules are negotiated far more, but even still there are still some that are becoming more evident the more people realize they are poly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
What life values and beliefs do you feel you need to have present and shared in order for your relationships to be successful? And what is your personal definition of a "successful relationship"?
I used to think that my values were complicated. Same as my beliefs, but I think they have simplified the more I go through relationships and the older I get in the ones I have. I don't think that I have compromised my values, but have categorized them more.

Lets see, what are the categories

I value people that are passionate about their values. They can be different than mine, but I admire that.

I value people who are willing to bend and change with time as as they learn. They are more admirable to me when they can see that they are changing and are willing to say that they are not who they used to be but are this way now and that they don't think what they used to think and here is why.

I value humbleness, people who step down from their entitlement and ego and take a look around them at those that are in the back ground from them in some way... even if they don't know how to approach them, just trying to is enough for me... taking the journey to understand those who are not as fortunate. Because I truly believe that it is those that think they are fortunate really aren't.

I value people that make an effort not to hurt the planet and all that is on it. In every way. I realize that some are in different stages of learning how to accomplish this and that it is not always possible, but to be aware of how we effect others and our planet is a huge value of mine.

They kind of all relate somehow, and I find it hard to articulate that, but I cannot be in a relationship where the person stands still.... there is so much to do and so many ways to learn. I value that as a general thing...I think.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
relationships, shared values

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:01 PM.