why "poly women" are bisexual ???

[SchrodingersCat]

Originally Posted by BreatheDeeply

Men aren't very manly if they have sex with other men (this is an opinion I have seen here in this forum)

I've followed the threads you're referring to with this comment, and you've misconstrued it. What those women specifically said is that they are not attracted to men who have sex with other men, even when those men are in fact manly. Although they've been accused of it there and again here, they did not say that men who have sex with men are not manly. Merely that no matter how manly a guy is, if he has sex with other men, then these women are not sexually attracted to them.

I think we (in this forum) should be exceptionally good at not insulting others. Why? Because we ourselves (polyamorists) are on the butt end of bad public opinion, so we should be the last people to make any kind of negative remarks about any group of people.

I've heard this belief before in a lot of scenarios. It's very idealistic. And like all idealistic beliefs, it's unrealistic.

Sure, we have this thing in common that a lot of people frown upon. But that doesn't make us any less human, ignorant, or self-centred than the general public. We are part of the general public with, by and large, all of its prejudices and beliefs.

Last time I checked, Neo-Nazis counted as "any group of people." I reserve the right to make as many negative remarks about them as I want. And before you tell me "that's not what I meant," realize that there is no "absolute truth" about which groups are "bad." What I see wrong with the Neo-Nazis could be exactly what TiMCbyats sees with straight males. And so, lest someone tell me I'm not allowed to judge Neo-Nazis, I'm going to go ahead and let TiMCbyats judge straight men. Doesn't mean you or I have to agree with his judgment, but it is his to make. And it is mine to make of him because of it.

[ThatGirlInGray]

While I see your point, SC, there's a difference between judging someone (or a group) for their sexuality (or race, or gender, or anything that is part of who we are) versus judging someone because they have built their life and belief structure on the idea that another group of people is "inferior" to them and taking actions against that group.

I agree that TiMCbyats is allowed his opinion, but I do not agree that he's allowed to spew his opinion wherever and however he wants, nor to try and convince others that his opinion is "correct" and "valid" (not saying he's done this, just a common occurrence). The laws against hate speech exist for a reason, because extremely negative opinions lead to thinking someone is "less" for one reason or another, which then leads to violence against them.

[MrFarFromRight]

Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray

While I see your point, SC, there's a difference between judging someone (or a group) for their sexuality (or race, or gender, or anything that is part of who we are) versus judging someone because they have built their life and belief structure on the idea that another group of people is "inferior" to them and taking actions against that group.

I agree that TiMCbyats is allowed his opinion, but I do not agree that he's allowed to spew his opinion wherever and however he wants, nor to try and convince others that his opinion is "correct" and "valid" (not saying he's done this, just a common occurrence). The laws against hate speech exist for a reason, because extremely negative opinions lead to thinking someone is "less" for one reason or another, which then leads to violence against them.

I read SC's comment and I agreed. Then I read TGIG's and I agreed even more.

I took part in a huge Anti-NeoNazi demo in London at the end of the 70s. We were demanding that they not be allowed to enter local government, that their party be banned. Shortly afterwards, I thought again about those demands and discarded them. I think that people SHOULD be allowed to hear hate-filled rants. Let the violent arseholes reveal themselves for exactly what they are. If people REALLY listen to them, maybe they'll be disenchanted. Of course, it's up to the rest of us to provide an open, caring alternative which is more attractive than the hate.

I agree with TGIG in this VERY important point: a value judgement against someone because of what they intrinsically are DOES NOT EQUATE MORALLY with a value judgement against people who CHOOSE to believe and expouse hate and discrimination. I objected to TiMCbyats' comments because he used words like "make me puke", "disgust me", and "end of conversation" against people who have no CHOICE about being male and straight. I offered him the benefit of the doubt in case he meant that he felt disgusted by people who choose to define themselves in those terms [wear them like badges of honour]. But if people are ASKED to define their gender and sexuality - and this thread deals very intimately with that theme - and they do so, I find the ensuing attack on them to be offensive.

That said, TiMCbyats, fleurisseur (who seems to have abandoned this can of worms that he opened up), et al have all the right in the World to be as offensive as they wish. But they shouldn't attack us and accuse us of misinterpreting them when we understand them very well.

[SchrodingersCat]

Very good points. In my defence, I was only countering the argument that making negative remarks against "any group of people" is always wrong.

And I do agree, and hope I didn't imply otherwise, that hate speech is wrong and should be censored. I see a difference between privately making judgments, which is an internal process, and publicly spewing hatred, which is an external process.

More than anything, I was just trying to reinforce the idea that hateful thinking is always judgmental. You can't arbitrarily apply a different label to something and thereby make it non-judgmental.

It doesn't bother me one bit if the guy next door thinks homosexuality and polyamory is disgusting. I have no right to tell him how to think. I couldn't enforce it even if I wanted to. However, I do think that the guy next door should be discouraged from coming up to me and calling me disgusting on the basis of my polyamorous, homosexual relationship. And by no means should he be allowed to bar me from using the public side walk in front of his house.

[BoringGuy]

I may have said this somewhere already, but there is a difference between "judging" people on a discussion forum when drawing conclusions from what they say and making assumptions where one has less than complete information, and "judging" people in a way that assumes they should be forced to think or behave according to one specific set of criteria.

This is why i laugh when people come on here and wail that they're being "judged" when all that really happened was someone gave them some free advice that they don't have to follow.

[BreatheDeeply]

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

I've followed the threads you're referring to with this comment, and you've misconstrued it.

Well no, I haven't misconstrued it. The thread in question has been removed from this forum. I do retain email proof of its existence.

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

I've heard this belief before in a lot of scenarios. It's very idealistic. And like all idealistic beliefs, it's unrealistic.

That's a false statement. And I might add a slightly depressing one as well! Ideals can come true, and it always starts with people willing to speak up against injustice. It is then up to society to judge the relative merits of their arguments.

[gomugirl1656]

Just for the record. I am female, I am bi. I am not disgusted by anyone's opinion on this board. I enjoy all kinds of porn and am not imaginary, going through a phase, or doing it for a man. I think whatever makes you happiest you should do, unless it causes harm to someone else. If it's not sane, safe, and consensual with a legal adult it's not a self preserving healthy behavior. It would be nice if moral superiority for any reason were not an issue. People are people and nature beautifully and dutifully expresses every possible combination. Some survive, some don't. It is not our business to determine rightness or non rightness based purely on our puny and mostly limited information. The best any of us can do is experiment until we find where we feel most at peace with ourselves and leave others to do the same. Anything else is a waste of good air. This is me.... stepping down.

[nycindie]

Originally Posted by BreatheDeeply

Well no, I haven't misconstrued it. The thread in question has been removed from this forum. I do retain email proof of its existence.

Well, I think this statement helps pinpoint the problem. I assumed, and perhaps SC did also, that you were referring to a thread that has not been removed, and one in which I participated. That thread still exists, I just checked. In actuality, I thought you were referring to things I'd stated. How about you explain which thread you meant? What was it about?


(as an aside, it is rather odd that a thread was removed - are you sure about that? The mods don't usually do that. They tend to just lock threads.)

[BreatheDeeply]

Originally Posted by nycindie

Well, I think this statement helps pinpoint the problem. I assumed, and perhaps SC did also, that you were referring to a thread that has not been removed, and one in which I participated. That thread still exists, I just checked. In actuality, I thought you were referring to things I'd stated. How about you explain which thread you meant? What was it about?

I probably just didn't search hard enough. I clicked through my own statistics page that links to all threads I've been a part of and it was missing from there.

To paraphrase the thread (or that part that was offensive), a writer equated homosexual behavior with lack of manliness. As I speak my mind pretty easily (it's part of my work life), I had to say something back, so I did.

I don't remember seeing anything you wrote in the thread, but then I wasn't looking at names, just the content really.

Anyway, I'm sure people are reading this and thinking why I'm making such a big deal out of this, sooooo, I'm not going to say anymore on this and slowly exit this thread without anyone seeing.....(quickly exits stage left)...

[undefinable]

Originally Posted by fleurisseur

it is very funny

whatever I write here, in this forum, there is always someone that comes to say that I am stupid.

Or, in the opposite, is it "the stupid" (= the person that only understands his/her own brain) that comes to show he/she is the stupid one ?

big philosophy problem.............

I don't believe it to be a philosophy problem. Possibly a language issue. Just a thought..........