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  #41  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:02 AM
Icewraithonyx Icewraithonyx is offline
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My issue is that I'm asking about a situation that arose from a commited monogamous relationship. As Marcus has professed against monogamy and marriage, I find much of his input non-helpful. Like asking for advice on house-breaking a puppy and being told "Get a kitten". While logically valid, not very helpful to the original question.
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  #42  
Old 01-28-2013, 02:10 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Thanks for the reply!

I felt terrible for my mistakes and owned up to it. BF1 (now DH) at the time amazed me with his take on it. Firmly told me "I am upset. I do not think this is unreasonable to feel in this situation. I do NOT love this. I DO love you. We will manage." Then he kissed me went back to bed because he had work in the morning and needed to sleep, and the practical thing to do was to sleep and discuss later when he got home.

I wanted to vomit. I know now that part of all that is the initial "fight or flight" brain dump of hormones. It can take a few days to clear the system so yah -- I felt like crap. Like I was ill or something. I don't know how many days it has been since she came to you with crushy stuff... but perhaps knowing the physical/gut symptoms could help you weather out your feelings? Like make no major decisions until that's cleared?

Until the "new normal" BECOMES normal it's going to feel pretty weird. And in choosing to explore this with her -- you are off into uncharted waters on several counts. Recovering from the "pretty big violation" thing, and moving toward "a new relationship model" thing.

YOUR AREAS:
Quote:
I've accepted that Wife is more inclined to non-monogamy.
And you are willing to be in an ethical, non-monogamous relationship from this point forward? Of what open relationship shape? What are the agreements or personal standard that have to be upheld for you both to be in right relationship to each other in a non-monogamous arrangement? If it could help you b oth start talking about it, there's mine as a conversation starter.

Beyond the obvious of sex health things like birth control and lab screenings... what else do you need? Are you both in accord with your new agreement? Talked it all out and made provision for how to resolve the unexpected? (You can't predict every situation ever. Nor should you try. Focus more on HOW you want to be together weathering Life's Journey -- rather than predicting WHAT every situation life will throw at ya will be.)

Quote:
MY biggest issue is that when this all started (badly), there was no option of giving up (or even slowing down) New Relationship or Polyamory.
Has trust been rebuilt? Or is this "in progress" right now? What is being done to build trust back up?


THE COUPLE AREAS:

Quote:
So we're trying to move forward with being in harmonious, ethical non-monogamous relationship.
Ok... so what does the couple have left to do? Is the couple willing to read resources together?

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/do...documents.html
http://www.morethantwo.com/
http://www.serolynne.com/polyamory.htm
http://openingup.net/resources/free-...om-opening-up/

Improve their communication skills? Conflict resolution skills?

CURRENT SITUATION:

Quote:
More recently, she started developing feelings for a friend online and came to talk to me about early on.
Did you thank her for being more honest/forthright?

Quote:
MY fears were whispering that if I balked, she'd go forward anyways and that would cause a lot of damage.
What did you/ could you do to put down the fear so far? As your supportive partner person -- what has she done / could she do to reduce the "fear volume" other than come to you in honest, forthright fashion?

Have you both read up on jealousy? Doing the page 5 and page 6 things?

Take it one thing at a time as you sort yourselves out.

HTH!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-28-2013 at 03:39 AM.
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  #43  
Old 01-28-2013, 03:14 AM
sparklepop sparklepop is offline
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I have read through this thread and wanted to add a little something. It's going to be simple and it's going to relate only to your question.

I agree with everything GalaGirl just said.

Quote:
The big problem for us specifically is dealing with past hurts. On both sides. I should really get around to the post of how that first visit went as we were all three amazed at how it went. Especially with the surprises and problems we ran into!

So for us, and for those in the very beginning of all of this, the question is, how do you get over the bad treatment of the past? People say talk, we do, admit, and we both have, but feelings remain and as DH especially is a linear thinking, a how to is what he is looking for. Sadly, there really aren't really steps or guides on that kind of thing.
As humans, we learn from experience. We touch something hot when we are toddlers and we never touch it again. Sometimes, we learn things, but work to change our reaction, because we have a need to change it. For example, we get bitten by a dog. Our learned response is to feel nervous around dogs in future. Then, we fall in love with someone who has a dog. So we go to therapy, or do some research, and try to adapt our response. Eventually, we might be able to overcome the past and have that dog in our lap.

Let's talk in a linear way, then.

Using the analogy above, we know that our learned response can be worked on. You (hubby) are still hanging onto some fear and resentment, because you think history might repeat itself. But you know that you need (and want) to work on your learned response. That's why you're here. You want to comfortable stroke the dog in your lap.

You know, my GF and I fell into that trap. We actually went one step further. We would constantly move in circles, pulling each other up on past behaviour; judging each other by past behaviour; acting with a motive of "well, you treated me this way 6 months ago, so surely it's ok for me to be just as inconsiderate now, right?"

This is what helped me/us:

Who you were *then* is not who you are *now*.

I am a Poet. I thought the first Haiku I ever wrote was the best Haiku any Western woman had ever written. A few years later, I read more about Haiku and realised I'd made a lot of mistakes. I wrote a new one - and it knocked the socks off my first. Of course, now I've accepted that every time I write a Haiku, it won't be perfect. It will be the draft, until the next draft, and the next draft. It will keep getting better. Occasionally, I might write a shit one again. Because writers mess up. But I'll find my groove once more.

Relationship behaviour is like that. Your wife made some mistakes. It was her first draft. She thought she was doing the right thing at the moment; for herself.

In terms of how your poly situation came out, you have to take the positives from that situation. Your wife did the right thing in the end. She told you about it. She's human. She wanted what she wanted - that included you, or you would be divorced by now. I don't know the details, but maybe she even acted like a kid in a candy store - greedily taking what she wanted and not noticing anyone waiting in line. We do that sometimes. I've been there. My girlfriend went wild when we first became poly - she wanted what she wanted and it didn't matter what anyone else said.

You have to try to forgive human behaviour, because we are all shits sometimes and we all make mistakes.

In simple, linear formation:
- understand that she had a weakness: it's human
- understand that she felt completely torn
- understand that if she didn't want you, she wouldn't be here
- accept her apology - empathise with her guilt
- listen to what she's saying now
- let her prove herself
- every time you are scared, say so
- every time a mistake is made, talk about how you can do it better next time
- remember that everything is the draft before the next draft

Good luck to you guys. I really hope that you can find peace, security and happiness.
__________________

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Serious long-distance relationship with GF (40f)
Casual FWB with Descartes (27f)



“Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without." ~ Buddha

Last edited by sparklepop; 01-28-2013 at 03:17 AM.
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  #44  
Old 01-29-2013, 05:11 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Since the definition (which isn't mine, I just pulled the top one I found first from a Google search) leaves the loophole in the end it does open up the word to any and all applications in which "some form of pressure" is applied. Taken to it's extremes (which I believe it has been in the current example) this does indeed make the word useless and can mean *literally* any decision in which one of the choices is undesirable enough to apply "pressure".
Not at all. There are two "choice" concepts at play here. One is where there are two options, both inevitably sucky, and one must be chosen. The other is where there are two choices, and one of those need not be sucky but is deliberately made sucky by an outside entity. It's implied that in order for a decision to be coerced, there must be a human agent doing the coercing.

The pressure is not inherent in the choices (poly or mono). The presure is applied by an agent dictating negative consequences if one of those options is chosen. Mono is not an inherently undesirable option, but negative consequences are attached as a rider by the person offering the choice. It's coercive because the agent knows that attaching this rider makes that option unacceptable.

To put it another way, the wife did not say "Hey, I'm poly. Let's discuss what that means for our relationship and whether we are still compatible as partners." She said "Hey, I'm poly. If you don't want to be in an open relationship, there's the door."

Quote:
I don't get called polite in online forums like this very frequently. I'm adding this one to my sig so I have proof for all of the future times in which I am a complete douche nozzle.
Don't push it. If you become a complete douche nozzle, you will automatically cease to be polite. Funny how that works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
My issue is that I'm asking about a situation that arose from a commited monogamous relationship. As Marcus has professed against monogamy and marriage, I find much of his input non-helpful. Like asking for advice on house-breaking a puppy and being told "Get a kitten". While logically valid, not very helpful to the original question.
No where has Marcus said "I disagree with monogamy and marriage, so obviously the solution to your problem is to get divorced and become non-monogamous." He has merely questioned your assumptions about marriage and partnership. Why does that make you so insecure that you need to try and shut him up? Do you deny that it's at least theoretically possible that you could grow apart as individuals?

Hey, I don't happen to agree with him either. But last time I checked, this forum is moderated for a variety of reasons, none of which is disagreement with one's opinion. We all come here with different backgrounds and beliefs. He's not holding a gun to your head, forcing you to adopt his opinion. In my experience, people have the strongest reactions to things that hit a little too close to home. If he's way off base, why not just roll your eyes and keep scrolling? The fact that you want to shut him up because you don't agree with his world view tells me more about your own relationship than the applicability of his opinions to your situation.
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Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

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  #45  
Old 01-29-2013, 02:56 PM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
To put it another way, the wife did not say "Hey, I'm poly. Let's discuss what that means for our relationship and whether we are still compatible as partners." She said "Hey, I'm poly. If you don't want to be in an open relationship, there's the door."
As I see it the options are still basically the same.

She had a radical worldview shift (which happens, and is perfectly ok). This shift will necessarily change her relationship with her husband. Sooner or later one of the people involved is going to either have a new shift in their worldview (putting them both on the same page) or they will have to live with a situation that is antithetical to how they view relating romantically. The short version is: in the monogamous format from which he seems to be functioning, one of them just sucks it up or leaves.

What you are talking about is courtesy, which I also find to be important but does not change the fact that the choices are essentially the same on his end. Nor does it create a coercive situation, it's just that the options were presented by someone who doesn't seem to care about the others feelings.

** To be honest I really didn't get that impression from what he'd said. It seemed to me that she wanted him to share her new poly life with her, not that she just threw it on the table and shrugged at his discomfort. I might have skimmed through the relevant part though
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  #46  
Old 01-29-2013, 05:46 PM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post




No where has Marcus said "I disagree with monogamy and marriage, so obviously the solution to your problem is to get divorced and become non-monogamous." He has merely questioned your assumptions about marriage and partnership. Why does that make you so insecure that you need to try and shut him up? Do you deny that it's at least theoretically possible that you could grow apart as individuals?

First of all, isn't it absolutely ridiculous how when someone disagrees or does not just automatically accept another's opinion they must feel insecure or threatened? Should I assume everyone who is disagreeing with poly is insecure about it? Same with sexuality? Come on, that was a childish move and you know it.

No one is denying that we grow as individuals in different directions. No two people are going to be the same. Even if they are both religious it doesn't mean it's in the same way or speed. That's not the point. For those of you consistently missing the point here's the simple version of it.

We are two people, we have, however, decided that we want to share our lives. We get that it makes life a bit more difficult at times, especially when one of us is hitting a 'growth spurt' of any kind. We get that others dont' necessarily agree with our decision to be married or continue our relationship. It's a null point, THAT decision has been made. So any advice that starts with, "Well that decision you made? Undo it and THEN you can make others" is not going to work for us.

You can keep explaining your POV but if we've already said, or decided, that isn't going to work for us, what good does it do to keep hammering people with it? We are open to any advice, and discuss it between the two of us. It does not, however, mean that we MUST take every thing everyone says under advisement. If something is easily dismissed as not working for us, then that's our choice. Calling us 'insecure' isn't going to change that. Any more than telling someone they are insecure about the openness of poly or non monogamy is going to stop them from wanting monogamy.
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DH: My husband of 19 yrs and father of 3 teen girls.
DC: LDR of +4 year

Last edited by Vixtoria; 01-29-2013 at 05:49 PM.
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  #47  
Old 01-29-2013, 06:14 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
You can keep explaining your POV but if we've already said, or decided, that isn't going to work for us, what good does it do to keep hammering people with it?

I agree that just because a person decides something is irrelevant, it does not have to mean that person feels "threatened" by it. However, since this thread is posted in a public forum that allows open discussion and debate, anyone may write their ideas and respond to anything even if it is not relevant to the real-life issue(s) as experienced by the OP. In a thread like this, no one person "owns" the conversation, not even the person who started it. The reason it's like that here is because other people reading or participating might benefit from the "superfluous" content.

If an individual desires more control over the flow or direction of conversation, or wants to limit the scope of discussion to certain areas, it's suggested that they start a thread in LIfe Stories and Blogs. The environment in that sub-forum is more about "support" rather than about criticism and debate.
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  #48  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:04 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
First of all, isn't it absolutely ridiculous how when someone disagrees or does not just automatically accept another's opinion they must feel insecure or threatened? Should I assume everyone who is disagreeing with poly is insecure about it? Same with sexuality? Come on, that was a childish move and you know it.
Agreed. If I posted certain theological or political views here, it's safe to say I'd get strong reactions, and nobody would for an instant believe it's because they're threatened or insecure.
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  #49  
Old 01-30-2013, 05:49 PM
onoma onoma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Which is one of the fundamental issues I have with marriage specifically, and monogamy more broadly. The concept that two humans are sharing a life together is interesting in poetry, but if we step back and think about it even for a moment that idea is obviously bunk.
I think you need to define "obviously."

Quote:
Humans grow and change intellectually and emotionally according to their own genetic makeup and the prominent stimulus of their environment. Who they are in a relationship with only alters that in that they probably are prominent stimulus in the others environment.
Yes, and given that a partner is a prominent stimulus, they are likely to have a large impact on that growth. What, you've never seen a guy suddenly get into country music because he's dating a girl who loves country music?

Quote:
Just because they are in a relationship, however, does not change the way human beings develop. There is no genetic relationship switch which somehow now joins the path of two (or more) people simply because they say they'd like it that way.
Oddly, humans are a bit more complex than our genetics. Genetically most (if not all) men are pretty much programmed to screw everything in site. Yet many devout Christian men will actually put off sex until they are married, and never sleep with anyone else. Environmental stimuli (such as a religion or a relationship partner) often trump genetics.

Quote:
With the exception of Siamese twins who are literally sharing organs, we develop entirely as individuals. So, if there are major changes in a persons outlook, intellect, or emotional development, their partner is only going to share that change with them if they miraculously came to the same decision at the same time. It happens, but if these boards have a story to tell, it happens less frequently then people would like to think.
Miraculously? It's miraculous when 535 different people come to a similar decision in Congress, but it happens. If two people can't discuss things and come to a workable, collaborative decision then those two people have serious problems.

Quote:
Coercion (pron.: /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force

If someone saying, "My autonomy is important to me. I need you to be ok with not having control over me when it comes to what I do with my time and body" is coercion, then that broadens the definition to the degree that it is a useless word.
Except that that's not the statement entire statement in this discussion. The entire statement is:

"My autonomy is important to me. I need you to be ok with not having control over me when it comes to what I do with my time and body and if you're not on board with my decision then I'm ending the marriage."

So the guy loses his wife, it will hurt his kids, the courts will likely hand half his income to his ex-wife and he's left with nothing rather than sharing. How is that not "threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force?"
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  #50  
Old 01-30-2013, 06:33 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx
Right now, I'm struggling with overcoming some resentment from feeling that I was hijacked into this new relationship model.
Ice, how are you doing on the resentment front at this point in time?

What kinds of "reassure" behavior (in words or actions) are you needing from spouse? From yourself? Are you getting that behavior from spouse/yourself? Behaviors that demonstrate things like loving, kindness toward you? Considerate, thoughtful? Respected or worthwhile?

Since the resentment stems from feeling like you were not considered at all maybe new behaviors that demonstrate things like the above could help assuage.

I don't know you so I don't know what your personal "action things" ARE. Maybe spouse shows "thoughtful behavior" more toward you by starting small. Maybe remembering you like cream and sugar in your morning coffee and setting it out at breakfast time. Then building up to "bigger action things" as your willing to trust comes back and the resentment fades?

Work that out with spouse. They live there and know your habits/comfort things better than I would.

You've been quiet over there. I am hoping you both are sorting things out and moving into a better space.

Namaste,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-30-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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