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  #31  
Old 01-27-2013, 09:08 PM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
What about the simple concept of partnerships. An agreement entered into.
Well as I said, I think there is a difference between a clearly stated agreement or an assumed agreement.

In neither case though, would I accept anything being "forced" onto me, and I don't see why anybody would, that's not very loving, why would people choose to stay in a relationship where their partner had become a hostile force? As it seems pretty clear from thousands of debates on the subject, people arent interested in polyamory for "amusement or recreation" or they would just be saying they wanted an open relationship, wouldn't they? It's too bad I see so many people not clear about what they want, and in some cases I think people just think it sounds more PC to say poly when they just want to have other sex partners, or think just the act of falling in love with somebody else means they get to hold up a poly bannerof entitlement.

I can't imagine it's easy for most people to bring the subject up after years of their partner presuming monogamy is working just fine for everybody. It's not exactly a walk in the park. Nevertheless I think when something is sprung on somebody, there was some lack of communication and/or honesty going on for a long time. If you don't share those desires with your partner when they first start and are relatively small and benign you lost some closeness along the way. Putting off the discussion until you have spent months thinking about it, falling in love with somebody else, or deciding that you want your life to take a whole new direction and not letting your cherished partner have any insight into your heart is not a positive for any relationship.

If you pull a dick move and present it as a fait accompli, in most cases I can't see why people want to try to salvage a relationship that screwed up in the first place. Realizing one day your partner is a self centered entitled jackass doesn't really make you feel warm and fuzzy. You can only make so many allowances for the fear and shame people have for making crap decisions, and each person has to draw that line for themselves.
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  #32  
Old 01-27-2013, 11:37 PM
Icewraithonyx Icewraithonyx is offline
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I wanted to clarify some things re: definitions and my original intent.

I went with "coerced non-monogamy" rather than "forced" because I feel that there IS a choice but it's not really made out of freely given consent. Someone gave the definition of "consent" as "Having two or more choices, all of which are agreeable". Coercion vs consent.

Marcus, I'd agree that perhaps this discussion would be better served without your input. Thanks for your POV about autonomy.

Also, Wife's "surprise" was years ago. She regrets her behavior and we're trying to do things better in the future. It's just I'm on another list for Poly / Mono relationships and I keep seeing the "Hey, I fell in love and now either you accept polyamory or we get divorced" intros. Wondering if there's experience in healing from that kind of situation.
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  #33  
Old 01-27-2013, 11:45 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Well, I wasn't married to him at the time. But I made a mistake and yet... here we are. Still together... closing in on 20 years. Could that give you hope?

As I said previously -- it seems you and wife both want to move this forward. That's good to start. Both are willing to try.

So... what areas need work? What's being done to address each area? I asked a few questions in my previous post but hadn't seen that addressed. Kinda hard to give further feedback without knowing where it is you all are AT in this process.

Like... are we still identifying the areas that need work? Or have we done that already and are moving it past the "Identify" stage and on to the "improve these things" place?

GG
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  #34  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
Marcus, I'd agree that perhaps this discussion would be better served without your input. Thanks for your POV about autonomy.
Because you'd rather be able to freely misuse words which are fundamental to the discussion at hand without being called out on it? Because I have a viewpoint different from your own and it makes you uncomfortable?

ROFL

Thanks for the offer to "get lost" but I think I'll stick around

While I'm at it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
Someone gave the definition of "consent" as "Having two or more choices, all of which are agreeable"
Consent refers to the provision of approval or agreement, particularly and especially after thoughtful consideration

Whoever gave that definition would have been better served to look it up. I say this because that is not even *CLOSE* to what that means. What you have described is the definition for a "win-win" situation. In case you wanted to update your dictionary.
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  #35  
Old 01-28-2013, 12:51 AM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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And we have here yet another anecdotal example of why "language is fluid" is not a productive way to communicate.
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  #36  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:21 AM
Icewraithonyx Icewraithonyx is offline
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Galagirl:
My apologies, I got distracted from your questions. As to where we are now, I've accepted that Wife is more inclined to non-monogamy. So we're trying to move forward with that. I think MY biggest issue is that when this all started (badly), there was no option of giving up (or even slowing down) New Relationship or Polyamory. In short, she had made a choice and it wasn't me. More recently, she started developing feelings for a friend online and came to talk to me about early on. MY (trying to own that) fears were whispering that if I balked, she'd go forward anyways and that would cause a lot of damage. Add to that, if I was able to get past an uncomfortable adjustment period, this might be a win situation for all concerned. So far, while we are still experiencing bumps, they are mostly from issues separate from the current relationship.
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  #37  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:28 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graviton View Post
I think everything about love is selfish its just a matter of who is being selfish and in what capacity.
I completely disagree. I'm an incredibly selfish person. Love is the one thing that makes me actually consider the needs and desires of others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Coercion (pron.: /ko???r??n/) is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force
There seems to be some disagreement on what constitutes "some other form of pressure." I would argue that there are varying degrees of coercion. To say that only extreme, violent coercion "counts" is simplistic.

It would be hard to argue that losing your family does not constitute "some form of pressure" but you're welcome to try. Does it constitute threats, intimidation, or force? I would agree that it does not. But by your own definition, it constitutes coercion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
How many business partnership would allow the addition of more partners for the reason of amusement or recreation of just one of the partners.?
There's an important difference, however. Adding a partner to an existing business agreement is different from forming an additional and separate partnership. As long as there is no conflict of interest, the other partner in the first arrangement would have nothing to complain about. In fact, it's very rare for a person to be involved in only a single business. Your investments are more secure when you hedge your bets and spread out your capital to as many industries as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
Marcus, I'd agree that perhaps this discussion would be better served without your input.
Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if everyone always said exactly what we wanted to hear and never disagreed or challenged our opinions? Oh wait, no it wouldn't. That would be the basis for a dystopian novel. I find life much more interesting when people challenge me and force me to reconsider my notions.

Try as I might, I couldn't find the statement with which this was an agreement. Nice try, though. Marcus has presented his views in a clear, concise, and extremely polite manor. The fact that you disagree with his points does not remove his privilege to make them.
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  #38  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:48 AM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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OP could always start a blog thread where one does not have to put up with the inconvenience of others challenging one's paradigms
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  #39  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:51 AM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Because you'd rather be able to freely misuse words which are fundamental to the discussion at hand without being called out on it? Because I have a viewpoint different from your own and it makes you uncomfortable?

ROFL

Thanks for the offer to "get lost" but I think I'll stick around

While I'm at it:



Consent refers to the provision of approval or agreement, particularly and especially after thoughtful consideration

Whoever gave that definition would have been better served to look it up. I say this because that is not even *CLOSE* to what that means. What you have described is the definition for a "win-win" situation. In case you wanted to update your dictionary.

Greetings! Well I am the wifey in all of this and as I've been asked not to reply right away, more so he could get some clear answers than anything, I've held my tongue until now.

Marcus, what he was trying to politely say is that since your view is that you don't believe in monogamy AT ALL, or marriage, then perhaps your opinion is not as helpful. It's not. As for definitions:

1con·sent
intransitive verb \kən-ˈsent\
Definition of CONSENT
1
: to give assent or approval : agree <consent to being tested>
2
archaic : to be in concord in opinion or sentiment


When the agreed upon standard was indeed monogamy and that is broken without being discussed at all in advance, then there is no consent. I understand totally that what I did was against his consent, without his consent, without, even, with his knowledge. If you are trying to stand up for me, don't. You may be under the delusion that like you, I just never believed in monogamy and am against it. I'm not.


co·er·cion
noun \-ˈər-zhən, -shən\
Definition of COERCION
: the act, process, or power of coercing
Examples of COERCION

<a promise obtained by coercion is never binding>



co·erce
transitive verb \kō-ˈərs\
co·ercedco·erc·ing
Definition of COERCE
1
: to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge>
2
: to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
3
: to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>



Telling someone that their choices are, to let someone break a promise/lie to you/cheat on you OR get out. Is coercion. I never debated that. I understood that was exactly what it was.

We can use all the pretty words and intellectualize all we want on how people grow, they change and you have to be free to be yourself! Yeah well, that's not the issue now is it? I didn't come out as pansexual until after we were married and had children. I was never told I wasn't free to be myself. However, I came out with that in a much better way. Talking first, much discussion and then moving. Then acting on it. Not so with poly, non monogamy.

Plain and simple, this discussion is good for both of us. However, you aren't helping ANYONE by deciding since you do not share our view of monogamy and marriage and refuse to accept that as our view, yes OUR VIEW, then your advice, not helpful. Now you can continue posting, we are honestly just going to ignore it. You don't believe in marriage the way we do and feel the best advice is to change our view, please don't argue that I am incorrect because your advice is ALL from your POV on marriage and monogamy not ours, so your advice is invalid.

Now as far as other questions. The original relationship was an emotional affair, distance made it impossible for me to actually meet this person. However, that didnt' make them any less a part of my every day life and it cause it's damage. We both agree to that. We've worked very hard and the start of this was about 5 years ago. Since then we have worked on communication and connecting. Our communication is amazingly better, and there's no problems with honesty in this situation. Both DH and DC have met and everything has been discussed with the three of us before any steps taken. I think we are doing what we need to now.

The big problem for us specifically is dealing with past hurts. On both sides. I should really get around to the post of how that first visit went as we were all three amazed at how it went. Especially with the surprises and problems we ran into!

So for us, and for those in the very beginning of all of this, the question is, how do you get over the bad treatment of the past? People say talk, we do, admit, and we both have, but feelings remain and as DH especially is a linear thinking, a how to is what he is looking for. Sadly, there really aren't really steps or guides on that kind of thing.
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  #40  
Old 01-28-2013, 01:57 AM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
It would be hard to argue that losing your family does not constitute "some form of pressure" but you're welcome to try. But by your own definition, it constitutes coercion.
A fair argument!

Since the definition (which isn't mine, I just pulled the top one I found first from a Google search) leaves the loophole in the end it does open up the word to any and all applications in which "some form of pressure" is applied. Taken to it's extremes (which I believe it has been in the current example) this does indeed make the word useless and can mean *literally* any decision in which one of the choices is undesirable enough to apply "pressure".

This means, if one chooses to focus on the last piece of that definition alone, all choices which do not have "win-win" outcomes are coercive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Marcus has presented his views in a clear, concise, and extremely polite manor. The fact that you disagree with his points does not remove his privilege to make them.
I don't get called polite in online forums like this very frequently. I'm adding this one to my sig so I have proof for all of the future times in which I am a complete douche nozzle.
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