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  #11  
Old 01-21-2013, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
Marcus:
I'm not opposed to polyamory. Philosophically, I think it's a valid option. It's a little stickier in real life to practice, but we're working on it. And it's easier to say "Just up and leave" when it's not YOUR long-term relationship and family at stake.
I haven't suggested you up and leave, I merely added a third option to the two grim options provided earlier. In my opinion, assuming that the relationship *must* continue is crippling to making a reasonable decision. I get that you don't want your relationship to end, if you did then you would have just ended it and you wouldn't be on here fielding for advice/input.

I simply wanted to remind everyone that looking at the information reasonably and not arbitrarily throwing out possible outcomes because they are not attractive is the preferable approach. If you decide to stay together and work it out I hope that it is because each of you, as adult individuals made the same decision to do so, not because "the relationship" needed to soldier on.
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  #12  
Old 01-21-2013, 09:35 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Graviton, .....funny that was one of my least bitter postings

I might be bitter but I'm ethical
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  #13  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:28 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Originally Posted by graviton View Post
Hmmm seems like there are some bitter hurt people on these forums looking to teach us all a lesson for the pain they have suffered.
Character Assassination: a revered part of the Socratic method since 475 B.C.

On a more serious note, character and ideas are two different things. A woman who was married to a smoking, drinking, cheating, gambling abuser may indeed be bitter. Does that nullify her statement that cheating is wrong? And if she's also against gambling and you're not, doesn't it make more sense to discuss the idea of gambling rather than call her bitter?

Her character has no bearing whatsoever on the ideas of cheating and gambling.

ETA: just to be clear, my point is: let's stick to ideas.

Last edited by WhatHappened; 01-22-2013 at 04:42 PM.
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  #14  
Old 01-23-2013, 08:03 AM
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PhilosophicallyLost PhilosophicallyLost is offline
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I am struggling with my husband somewhat on this note, too. I sprung the surprise on him May of last year.

I will voice something my oldest brother mentioned to me....marriage should be treated as a partnership. As partners, you both are supposed to come to major changes in your life together. It should not be dictated by her or by you. If it did not start out this way, hopefully you two have taken steps since then in embarking on this journey together. If monogamy is not an option for her, I can see how it does make you feel coerced. You probably feel like your choice was either go along with it or face divorce. It seems you could benefit from discussing your feelings with her further, and emphasize the need for you both to discuss needs and wants. You are partners, after all. Then maybe negotiate from there how you both can find a happier place. The compromises will be tough but hopefully they should serve both you and her, as well as the other person she cares for. I wish you the best of luck.
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  #15  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilosophicallyLost View Post
As partners, you both are supposed to come to major changes in your life together.
Which is one of the fundamental issues I have with marriage specifically, and monogamy more broadly. The concept that two humans are sharing a life together is interesting in poetry, but if we step back and think about it even for a moment that idea is obviously bunk. Humans grow and change intellectually and emotionally according to their own genetic makeup and the prominent stimulus of their environment. Who they are in a relationship with only alters that in that they probably are prominent stimulus in the others environment. Just because they are in a relationship, however, does not change the way human beings develop. There is no genetic relationship switch which somehow now joins the path of two (or more) people simply because they say they'd like it that way.

With the exception of Siamese twins who are literally sharing organs, we develop entirely as individuals. So, if there are major changes in a persons outlook, intellect, or emotional development, their partner is only going to share that change with them if they miraculously came to the same decision at the same time. It happens, but if these boards have a story to tell, it happens less frequently then people would like to think.

Since it has come up a couple of times I think everyone should consider dumping the use of the word coerce in this discussion.

Coercion (pron.: /koʊˈɜrʃən/) is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner (whether through action or inaction) by use of threats or intimidation or some other form of pressure or force

If someone saying, "My autonomy is important to me. I need you to be ok with not having control over me when it comes to what I do with my time and body" is coercion, then that broadens the definition to the degree that it is a useless word.
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  #16  
Old 01-23-2013, 03:42 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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My intention is to stay in the marriage. My hope is to reach a point where I'm not feeling as "strained". It already feel much less uncomfortable than at the beginning so I'm hoping it continues to get easier. She has apologized and still cringes at a lot of her NRE behavior, and is trying to do things with everyone in mind.
Then it sounds like you are both in this still and still willing to do the work required. What about the missing voice? Her Other Person? Is this person on board with moving the polyship forward to a healthier zone or not? There's more than just you two on the crew of this new polyship mission.

I see this as everyone at the square 1 place of "Your mission, should you choose to accept it..."

So do all players accept the mission? Are all players in agreement what the mission IS? (I am assuming the mission is a harmonious "V" shape configuration where she is the Share Sweetie hinge person.)

You guys sound like you are choosing to take this like some turbulence in your life journey together and are trying to make repairs required and get back into flying straight up. Not just with each other, but with a new crew member.

I do not know if it could help you, but I wrote my personal standard out --scroll to the bottom. That's how I want to be treated in relationship. That's what I'm willing to give in return. So DH and I can be in right relationship to each other. It makes it easy to hold him and myself accountable -- am I doing my responsibilities? Is he giving me my rights? And vice versa?

Perhaps this could be opportunity to (re)articulate and (re)affirm what the standard will be in your own relationships? Not just (you and her) on that tier of your polymath. But in all your tiers of relationship with her as the hinge person and your metamour? Can you create your relationship standard banner you all can agree to fly under and honor? A new person in the mix would be expected to review it and add their own things so it can become the thing to serve the needs of the new crew and all can be in agreement.

Could that help smooth the way? You still can't know HOW it will work out or even if it does on this new ship you are building. But you could come to agreement on how you want to be treating each other in relationship on board as you get to wherever it is this journey is going to next -- the harmonious V goal.

You are in the interesting position of having to build the ship while already flying it! This is your reality. It's good you see that and accept it for what it is. Could choose to remember that and try to forgive each other along the way if things get uncomfortable at first as you try to find "the new normal." It's bound to feel weird at first.

Are you guys considering a poly-friendly counselor?

This is an older thread about a different 3 people triad situation who face broken agreements, conflict resolution, forgiveness/making amends, and rebuilding trust.

You have a different 3 people shape arrangement there. But the breaking down of the elephant in the room, and owning bits of it? Elephant is just elephant. Maybe reading that thread could help give you guys some helpful nuggets that could be use in your process as you guys break down your OWN elephant problem?

What could you need most here for yourself in terms of "forum people support" as you sort yourselves out over there?

HTH!
GG

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-23-2013 at 04:11 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2013, 02:46 AM
Icewraithonyx Icewraithonyx is offline
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Marcus:
I think the main reason I still think of it as coercive is because, like PhilsophicallyLost said, I tend to view our marriage as a partner "ship", like a large boat. Me, Wife, and our children. Whereas it seems your view is more akin to two or more individuals, each on their own jet ski. In "jet ski view", if Wife wants to veer left, I can veer left as well or go my own way. In "ship" view, if she veers the ship left, my options are to continue with the ship or jump overboard, losing not only the ship but all the crew. Stopping the ship or veering back to the right didn't seem to be an option.
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2013, 04:50 AM
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BreatheDeeply BreatheDeeply is offline
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It's hard not to view this as coercion Ice. Because that's kinda what it is. She fell in love, and now wants you and her lover and her wonderful life with everyone. I'm not that far off from your wife. I had an affair, was caught, was/is very apologetic. (the difference is that I broke off the affair, and came to the realisation that I was poly several years afterwards).

So maybe hearing some of what I think is the last thing you want to read, or maybe it will be useful, I don't know.

I felt horrible for what I did. So horrible that I told my wife (Aquarius) I would do anything to make amends. Breaking off all contact with the person I was having the affair with was an absolute requirement to keep my marriage from dissolving.

My wife sacrificed to stay with me, I could not also ask her to accept on ongoing affair as well.

If your wife is sacrificing nothing, and you are sacrificing everything, it's an imbalance that has to be sorted somehow. I don't know if that is the case with you, but it is unfair and more so completely unreasonable for your wife to have her relationship needs satisfied while you are left to pick up the pieces and somehow make a go of this.

Someone earlier in this thread said something about you needing to be a "real" man in order to keep loving her and wanting to preserve your family. (I just love how some women are so quick to define what a "real" man is!). It's not up to a woman to decide what a man is, it's up to us men. Period.

So what sacrifice is she making to show her love for you? What is she willing to do for her family?

.
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  #19  
Old 01-27-2013, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewraithonyx View Post
Marcus:
I think the main reason I still think of it as coercive is because, like PhilsophicallyLost said, I tend to view our marriage as a partner "ship", like a large boat. Me, Wife, and our children. Whereas it seems your view is more akin to two or more individuals, each on their own jet ski. In "jet ski view", if Wife wants to veer left, I can veer left as well or go my own way. In "ship" view, if she veers the ship left, my options are to continue with the ship or jump overboard, losing not only the ship but all the crew. Stopping the ship or veering back to the right didn't seem to be an option.
No, it would be coercive if you were forced to stay on the ship. Since you've volunteered to stay on the ship, knowing that you will have to move as a unit, you have restricted YOUR OWN choices. You see the difference? You have freely decided to limit your options, if you are unhappy with this decision then change it.

It sounds more to me like you are talking about being caught up in the inertia of the change and are not sure how you want to react. Inertia can be a powerful force in a relationship and it is understandable that someone can get carried away by it. There doesn't need to be a bad guy in this, which calling someones actions "coercive" does by default.
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  #20  
Old 01-27-2013, 04:59 AM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Sort of reminds me of a scene in Walking Dead.

Governor: Take off your shirt.
Maggie: No.
Governor: Take off your shirt or I'll bring you Glen's (severed) hand.

Maggie immediately removes her shirt.

Of course she 'made a choice.' Of course she could have continued to refuse. But she was obviously coerced into it by the threat of something bad happening if she didn't.

To face the loss of marriage, income, home, time with children...these, to most parents and married people, are 'something bad happening.' Of course we CAN just hop off the ship and go. But we realize that our presence on the ship is important to us and very important to our children. If we're decent people, we consider the impact on everyone around us, and most parents will put up with an awful lot before they'll take a step (divorce, separation) they know will harm their children.

To claim that choosing Lousy Choice A over Lousier Choice B is not coercion is simply wrong.
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