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  #11  
Old 01-21-2013, 03:27 PM
graviton graviton is offline
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Good insight to the problem galagirl. I like that terminology "the price of admission".
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  #12  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:55 AM
InfinitePossibility InfinitePossibility is offline
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I wonder if some of the language you use might be feeding some of your friend's husband's worries.

You describe having strong feelings for your friend and that she feels the same way. And you say.

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Originally Posted by graviton View Post
I asked her if she could approach her husband to the possibility of us dating with no expectation of physical intimacy outside of cuddling and kissing and some emotional intimacy (I really need to have her romantically in my life).
To me, you are describing a friendship. I have several friends that I feel very strongly about, who I share enormous amounts of emotional intimacy with. Some that I cuddle and hold hands with sometimes. One that I kiss sometimes. Some that I would curl up with to watch films. These people are friends of mine. I don't see there being really any romance in those relationships.

We meet for dinner, coffee, drinks. We make time to see each other alone as well as in groups. But still - these are friendships. I see them that way because I don't expect them to change. The levels of physical intimacy are about where we are all happy with, the emotional intimacy is grand, we aren't planning on merging our lives or having children together or really changing anything. We're friends.

Now - some of these friendships sound lots like what you have with your friend.

But you're using language like dating and NRE and romance and having fallen in love.

I wonder. Is this just a language thing? Maybe if it is, you could explain that to your friend's husband.

Or maybe it indicates that there is more to come. It does to me. Right now you say that all you want to do is be able to meet up, talk, hold hands and maybe kiss. If I was the husband I'd be thinking that what you've asked for is what you think will be agreed to right now and that probably the door is being opened to an ongoing pressure for the level of physical intimacy, time and emotional intimacy to progress.

And progress to where? Maybe his concern is partly that he doesn't feel like he knows your intentions.

I wonder if he feels that sort of creeping dread where you know that you're going to be asked for more and more and you don't actually know where things are truly headed. That would bother me.

Your language indicates a level of dishonesty to me and I wonder if that's partly what is bothering your friend's husband.

IP
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  #13  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:53 AM
graviton graviton is offline
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I have been nothing but honest with him. I knew there would be difficulty and thus only asked for a bare minimum of "more than friends" type intimacy. He is even jealous of us holding hands, kissing, snuggling. There is a sexual attraction between us but I have no intention of crossing that boundary. She and I have had ample opportunity in some of the most tempting of circumstances and were still able to control ourselves. He claims the biggest issue is the intimacy that he feels he earned from her over years of kids and marriage is being given to me without earning it myself the same way, (all the ugly strings attached). I told him that our relationships are completely different and assured him that I could never dream of competing with him based on the long difficult history they share. another thing he told me is that he doesn't like how he feels that their couple time (cuddling, sex) feels tainted by me. He feels that she is bringing my aura into his bed. Their sex life has sky rocketed from once every few weeks to once a day. She has typically been a sex negative type person. He even admitted that their emotional intimacy and communication with each other has improved greatly. But I guess if it was me that caused it then its evil and insidious . I tried to help him understand that you can't insulate your spouse from the outside world. Her moods are changed and effected by EVERY personal interaction be they friends, family, or grocery tellers and to feel that she shouldn't bring any of that home is unrealistic. I can't believe he would rather go back to their old relationship style simply because it was unaccosted by me.
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  #14  
Old 01-22-2013, 02:15 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
another thing he told me is that he doesn't like how he feels that their couple time (cuddling, sex) feels tainted by me. He feels that she is bringing my aura into his bed.
Quote:
Their sex life has sky rocketed from once every few weeks to once a day. She has typically been a sex negative type person. He even admitted that their emotional intimacy and communication with each other has improved greatly.
Basically he's dealing with mirroring and magnifying. A marriage that chooses to Open will have every crack magnified and reflected back. That's why it is best to start with a strong foundation.

He's discovered all the places -- communication, sex -- where he/she could have tended to the marriage better without you around as a catalyst.
But they didn't. Now you are around, and they do.

Having that mirrored to him if he thought "all was cool before" is hard to bear and it is tempting to want to go back to "not seeing" like before and blame the newcomer (you) for this unwelcome knowledge.

He could choose to dwell on the "lack" from before and feed the insecure bucket. Or he could choose to use this new awareness and step it up and continue to enjoy his marriage more. He could choose something else entirely!

For you though? You could try to offer sympathy since you seem to talk to him and try to be honest and see if that helps make the situation a bit more bearable for YOU. Something like...

"Yes. It sounds like it is very hard to experience that sort of "mirror" -- where all the places in the marriage that could have had a little more TLC before I was around are shining out and reflected back at you. (<---Validate where he is at.)

But I am glad you guys are tending to your marriage and are enjoying better communication and better sex with each other as a result. This is a good thing. You and her are doing good things for each other."
(<-- Focus on "togetherness" and his part in the effort to build that up.)

Could always end on a positive. Could choose constructive tone. Could try to feed his secure bucket so he can learn how to feed it himself by modeling YOUR talk as his inner talk. Then you don't have to deal with chronic insecure any more out of your metamour -- at least reduce the "volume" on that.

This?

Quote:
I tried to help him understand that you can't insulate your spouse from the outside world. Her moods are changed and effected by EVERY personal interaction be they friends, family, or grocery tellers and to feel that she shouldn't bring any of that home is unrealistic. I can't believe he would rather go back to their old relationship style simply because it was unaccosted by me.
That first bit is logical. But the tone if those were your words to him verbatim? That's "take away-ness." He's "losing" her to other people -- the friends, the family, the grocery store worker. He already suffers too much of that kind of thinking - don't feed THAT bucket by giving him MORE people to stress out about that will "take her away." He already stresses out that YOU are "taking her away" somehow.

Could point him back to where she is WITH HIM so he can get secure in the "togetherness" instead. Could point to him putting in work on his marriage and praise that. Things he CAN control.

Hopefully he gets into the habit of talking to himself inside his head that way -- in more constructive, feed my "I can handle things" bucket type of way and it results in him being more secure and then gets on to putting the work into HIS POLYSHIP.

Are they thinking about a counselor? If he need extra PROFESSIONAL support?

But that bit in bold? I'm not surprised. The unseeing who now have to see? All the places in the marriage that changed? If even for the better? Those are places in the marriage he had a hand in neglecting. Both of them. To want to go back to a time where this knowledge was not in his awareness is a common enough reaction. Nobody likes to be called into account (which this kinda is) and be shown where they were lacking.

Some people handle that with grace and move it forward toward improvement without too much extra support. Some people can't deal with that alone -- and experience all sorts of things -- regret, guilt, beating up on myself-ness, etc. They need more support to learn to surf that wave.

HTH!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-22-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-22-2013, 02:47 PM
graviton graviton is offline
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galagirl you are my favorite forum member, I appreciate your understanding
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  #16  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:07 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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I may be repeating some of the things that GG just wrote, I didn't fully read her post, but here are my thoughts --

Try to see things from his point of view. Imagine that your wife is sex negative, and that this has always been a point of pain for you. Over the course of your marriage it's sometimes made you feel unattractive and unloved by her. However, you've worked through those feelings and came out the other side stronger. The way you did it was by telling yourself that it wasn't *you*, it wasn't that she didn't want you specifically, this is just how she is, she's just not that interested in sex.

Then this new dude comes into the picture, and suddenly she *is* interested in sex... way more so than she ever was before, in fact. It turns out that all these years? It WAS you that was the problem. All the things you told yourself, all the ideas you still relied on to make things okay, were false all along. She wasn't disinterested in sex, she just needed someone to be excited about... and that person wasn't you.

Cut the guy a little slack, have some sympathy. You come off as very disdainful towards him. Push over, indecisive, weird, wishy washy... and maybe he is all those things, I don't know, but geez... is it possible that he's picking up on your real feelings about him and that that's making it harder for him? To not just be shown up in terms of his wife's desires by another man, but to have it be a man who doesn't even respect him?

Take deep breaths. Be calm. You have what you want, right, intimacy with this woman, at least to a certain degree? You're blessed, in most cases two divorces would be happening right now. Focus on the good stuff you've got, be grateful to the people -- your wife and this man -- who've made it possible because of their love for each of you -- and let this poor guy heal.
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  #17  
Old 01-22-2013, 03:27 PM
graviton graviton is offline
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Anna he really is all those things but I do respect him still, its my frustration that makes it sound more negative. I am also very respectful to him and think of him as one of my best friends due to the discussions and sharing that he and I have had. The talks that we have had go waaaaay deeper than what I imagine most married couples have let alone a couple of dudes.
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  #18  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
I don't know, but geez... is it possible that he's picking up on your real feelings about him and that that's making it harder for him? To not just be shown up in terms of his wife's desires by another man, but to have it be a man who doesn't even respect him?
I agree with Anna, I can't imagine that none of your [OP] real feelings about this poor guy are apparent. I'm sure you are doing your best "Nah man, I don't think you're a punk" face when you talk to him... but you'd need to be one heck of a liar to pull it off.

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You're blessed, in most cases two divorces would be happening right now.
I wouldn't start counting those eggs yet. It looks to me like this guy is being bullied into being a cuckold (or at the very least he feels like it). If he is fundamentally monogamous, which is what it sounds like, he may never adopt another way of relating to people. Maybe he'll come around after years of soul searching and research or maybe not. This is a HUGE fundamental worldview change we are talking about, keep that in mind.
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  #19  
Old 01-22-2013, 04:42 PM
graviton graviton is offline
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Well both my wife and his wife have been present during our interactions, they have never once told me I was overly harsh, bullying, disrespectful or anything. They have only told me that they admire how gentle I am. Reading my frustration on a forum and actually seeing our interactions are two different things. plus he and I are buddies before any of this started in fact we went to see a movie together last weekend in spite of this stress in our lives. I will attempt to be less aggressive but to be honest I don't see how I can. And maybe that's better, I'm not one for pulling the wool over peoples eyes to make them see me as anything other than who I really am as a person.
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  #20  
Old 01-22-2013, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by graviton View Post
plus he and I are buddies before any of this started in fact we went to see a movie together last weekend in spite of this stress in our lives.
I really hope you guys figure out a way for everyone to get what they want. That's one hell of a difficult proposition in a situation like this, but it's not like it is impossible.
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