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Old 01-08-2013, 10:38 AM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
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Default Am I out of line here?

Something I posted about a couple of years ago on page 5, post # 42 of this thread has become an issue again.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3648

After holding my ground about M needing to work on his communication skills he has decided to become a man of action on the matter of he and I seeing each other. He still lives in the town I grew up in and isn't moving to my state any time soon.

My husband has maintained that he has serious misgivings about M's ability to stay low drama and he and M would have to have a long talk about things of the past for him to feel any differently. He claims he trusts me completely and his reservations are about M only.
Well M has contacted him to have this talk. Husband didn't have the time to devote to it when he called so but they are suppose to powwow about it very soon.
Husband, now that M has stepped up to have this talk, is much more emotional about the subject than he has ever been prior. Gritted teeth. All "if you really want to then go ahead but I think its a bad idea". He said he'd need to have this talk with M when this subject first cropped up. I told M he needs to have a talk with Husband. Husband is now stating he thinks even having this talk will likely end their friendship. I asked him why he asked for it to happen if he feels that way. He expected M to never approach him on the matter.
Pretty funny. I'm expected to try to make friends with people I only meet because he is having sex with them. Its an awkward ball to get rolling even if you do end up being able to get along. I do it anyway and I like his GF. I liked the last one too and still talk to her. He would never expect me to keep trying if we just didn't mesh but he does appreciate my efforts.
M is someone he calls family and he is wishing I'd go fuck a stranger rather than someone he is already friends with. I'd like to point out that he has not worked towards a friendship with any of his metamours. He is friendly when he has to be around them and they approach him but nothing more.

1. We have a no traveling with secondaries rule. This would be a situation where I would have to travel to see M. The expense of doing this a few times a year would be pretty on par with Husband's expense in seeing his GF on average, every other week for the last year. So there is that point of contention. Is this traveling with secondaries or is this just a less often but similar in expense situation to his own? Its also okay for people to have to travel to see one of us, but there is no room for reciprocity with this rule. I don't feel this is "traveling with secondaries" so much as its me traveling to do what I'd be doing with someone local. We're not talking about taking off to Paris or booking a cruise.

2. We had a butt load of rules out of the gate and almost all have been thrown out for his wants as they came up. I have asked for one to change but I have not indulged in it. He asked to travel to see his last GF after she moved away. I said I'd think about it and two days later he told me he changed his mind and to not worry about it.

3. I am someone who is just coming to get comfortable with asking for what I want rather than worrying about making waves and then being resentful over doing without. He is someone who will ask away for what he wants without reservation. I'm trying to find that place that isn't self sacrificing like I've been, but not hypocritical and selfish either.

4. It has been a hard last year for me seeing no one while he has a regular ongoing relationship. I was the one working from being perfectly okay with being monogamous to a place of acceptance in poly because he idealized it. I'm glad to have come out the other side of this year with a new outlook on things but it really sucked getting to this point. I'll admit I'm kind of chomping at the bit to seek my own enjoyment without always feeling guilty - pretty much the color of my only relationship since we made this change.

5. Its not like he has no reason to be concerned about M. He absolutely does for reasons that could happen with anyone I might see. However if someone else gets stupid and I have to break things off with them it doesn't carry the cost of an already established friendship we share. So I get the potential consequences. I'm just tired of letting what ifs rule my experiences and limit whether I even have experiences. I want to see M. I see the improvements he has made and don't see how any of the remaining concerns can get alleviated without giving it a try and seeing what comes of it.

I guess I'm just trying to get an unbiased outlook on the situation and husband's point of view is as biased as my own.

Last edited by Vinccenzo; 01-08-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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  #2  
Old 01-08-2013, 01:38 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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To me it sounds like you and DH could update your agreements if they are no longer serving you. Could do this BEFORE you start dating M. It's a good time -- new year, update agreements!

Once that is done, and you want to think about dating M...

Quote:
I want to see M. I see the improvements he has made and don't see how any of the remaining concerns can get alleviated without giving it a try and seeing what comes of it.
Well, what are his concerns then?

The only one listed so far is drama. If his main objection is that he doesn't think M can stay low drama and you feel M has improved to a place where you can... can DH be ok with you trying it on for X months to find out? Or not?

Is DH willing to behave like a polite metamour or not?

Does DH have any other reasonable requirements of you and M before you start dating for X months? Labs? Meet in person? What?

And if he's not ok and is giving mixed messages, will he clarify? Gritted teeth (action) implies NOT ok with it, and "I'm ok" (verbal) implies yes. Which is it? You could thank him for the feedback and let him know you are going to take him at his word. So is this his final answer? That he is ok with it? Or not?

Because once you begin, it is not fair to be all Mr Grumpy Pants at you because "I didn't really believe you would." If you take him at his word, does he plan to be Mr Grumpy Pants at you? What's his behavior going to be toward you if he feels yucky? He going to talk to you about it or act out? You'd like to know in advance what behavior to expect and hold him accountable to.

Just my 2 cents,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-08-2013 at 04:06 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-08-2013, 03:06 PM
riftara riftara is offline
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i think the real issue here, from your post, IF I understand things correctly, is about rules and you feelign comfortable acting on your wants/needs and having hubby be ok with it.

I think GG is right, it's time to re-evaluate your rules.

Leave M out of it, and re-negotiate your parameters, then, after that is done, you can safely pursue M with an established set of rules that maybe more conducive.

When you do that, you have to express your desires and stand up for what you want.
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  #4  
Old 01-08-2013, 08:03 PM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
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Its hard to know how to pick my battles with this because monogamy was never such a struggle for me to begin with. It starts to feel really stupid arguing over this when I could do without an open marriage situation if not for him preferring it. But I also end up feeling like we only do this for his enjoyment. His enjoyment is important to me but I've come to the conclusion that, if it is so damn enjoyable, then I want to be enjoying it for my own reasons too. Not in the name of fairness but because I too have the option to do so and it helps me not get resentful.

I don't have no attraction to others when I'm in a relationship. I just don't struggle to not act on it if I'm in a monogamous relationship.

I'm trying to leave M out of the discussion about rules. I'm even trying to just shelve the idea at this point because there's 7 billion people on this ball and Husband isn't friends with them all. Only he isn't letting me shelve it now. He can't really deal with feeling like Mr. Bad Guy. We went through a lot this last year that really chewed me up. He knows the work I put in for him and see that all I really get out of it is I preserved my sanity and things are calmer around the house. If I try to back down, he starts feeling like an asshole. Around round and round we go about M now whether I want to or not! Geez! Has there ever been a spare cock worth all this fuss?

I tease. Kinda. I like vulgar humor; what can I say?

Since no traveling with secondaries is pretty much our last remaining rule outside of safe sex and using protection. I know I'd get real butt hurt if he tried to go on vacation with someone he was seeing while I miss out on one of what few vacations we take, so it isn't a rule I want to see gone entirely either. All that remains is hashing out what falls under that rule. I've come to the conclusion that everything is a case by case situation and no list of rules is going to work in all cases. But we are getting bogged down in the Legend of Billie Jean with "fair is fair". What is fair in this when we are two different people who already know each relationship is going to be different? It seems there is no fair until someone feels like things have become unfair. Funny how that works.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:23 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
I don't have no attraction to others when I'm in a relationship. I just don't struggle to not act on it if I'm in a monogamous relationship.
So are you monoamorous, in a polyship?

Quote:
He can't really deal with feeling like Mr. Bad Guy.
He could learn. What is his behavior is he doing that causes him to feel bad?

I'm hearing this as your hard limits:
  • Safe sex and protection rules apply.
  • No vacations with secondaries. Because vacations for just US are few and far between!

Sounds reasonable so far.

Quote:
I've come to the conclusion that everything is a case by case situation and no list of rules is going to work in all cases.
So perhaps it isn't rules like "you can do this or that," but a personal standard you are trying to articulate? For how you want to be treated?
Quote:
What is fair in this when we are two different people who already know each relationship is going to be different?
It is not "equal" like golden rule. I want thus, so I'll give you thus too. "Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you."

If I want apple then? Yay. Apple for me, here is apple for you. We're golden right? But wait -- did I check that the other guy even WANTS apple? Maybe he wants orange!

That would be platinum rule. Inquiring what it is they want, need and what their limits are, and then trying to serve them THAT. To me "Fair" is platinum rule. Treat people how THEY want to be treated. Do not assume they want what I want, need what I need, have the limits I have.

Is DH trying to give you apples when you want oranges? Because apples for you since there's apples for him is "fair" to him? Is that where the fuss is happening at?

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-08-2013 at 08:25 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-10-2013, 03:30 AM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
So are you monoamorous, in a polyship?
Monoamourous, polysexual, however you want to call it. Husband claims there just isn't enough room in his heart left over for another love. I try to see it more as a possibility that just hasn't occurred for either of us but who knows right? Love isn't a science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
He could learn. What is his behavior is he doing that causes him to feel bad?
He wants me to enjoy myself too. Telling me what I can't do just doesn't sit well with him especially when he is benefiting from this right now. But he also just can't get behind the idea either despite knowing I'd feel much better about it if he could. So he knows when he says "go ahead" while obviously not on board with the idea, I will probably just decide this isn't worth the the way he is feeling over it just to catch some elsewhere. So it ends up feeling, for him, like he vetoed it anyway.
I own that part of that; I get that. I don't even want to see someone with a committed other partner because I just imagine that person sitting at home gut punched and feeling like I did earlier in the year - I'm going to still be all hot and bothered over someone enough to have sex if that is going on? I just couldn't do that. I'd need a lot of convincing that the other person or people were not going through that and its more likely found with less entangled people. People who don't live with their other partner if they have one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
I'm hearing this as your hard limits:
  • Safe sex and protection rules apply.
  • No vacations with secondaries. Because vacations for just US are few and far between!

Sounds reasonable so far.
It was a much longer list when we started. As we delved into all this, rules were removed when secondaries preferred things we had rules about causing a re examination of the rules. It isn't as though anyone could have gotten a rule removed. It is largely influenced by who they are and how they behave. As well someone else could come along that might cause one of us to add a rule we didn't previously have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
So perhaps it isn't rules like "you can do this or that," but a personal standard you are trying to articulate? For how you want to be treated?
Yeah it is like that. It isn't as unstructured as some might be use to in their dealings but also not as structured as some I've heard either. For instance - we are both very squeamish about pulling a veto card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
It is not "equal" like golden rule. I want thus, so I'll give you thus too. "Do unto others as you would want others to do unto you."

If I want apple then? Yay. Apple for me, here is apple for you. We're golden right? But wait -- did I check that the other guy even WANTS apple? Maybe he wants orange!

That would be platinum rule. Inquiring what it is they want, need and what their limits are, and then trying to serve them THAT. To me "Fair" is platinum rule. Treat people how THEY want to be treated. Do not assume they want what I want, need what I need, have the limits I have.

Is DH trying to give you apples when you want oranges? Because apples for you since there's apples for him is "fair" to him? Is that where the fuss is happening at?

Galagirl
He is trying to give me an apple while I want an orange in that I am already comfortable with M whereas someone new is just a time drain till they prove merit which they might not have in my opinion. I always met people to date through my large social circle. But now I'm in a newer city where I don't have a social circle built over the span of nigh 20 years. He would very much prefer I try to find someone new and local. I don't intend to not continue to try but in the mean time I'm sick of him out, me at home and it getting harder and harder to focus solely on his enjoyment and happiness in the meantime.

We have been working on this for the last week now and its basically come down to me deciding to do it anyway or not. He isn't going to pull the veto card on me.
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  #7  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:08 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Well, he's stated his preferences. You have yours.

You cannot be a mind reader, sounds like you have spent time getting the verify and clarify there. Ball is in your court.

You could go with his information at face value if you choose to pursue, and let him own his feelings.

Galagirl
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