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  #61  
Old 12-28-2012, 09:11 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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I'm just throwing out some random thoughts...
You're attracted to Laura, you don't mention (unless I missed something) that Laura and Greg have an open relationship in a sexual way? Even if do are there's a lot of steps between that and anything else.

You may be latching onto Laura's empathy, and desirability, and her being flattered that you want her, to bridge the gap you feel with your wife right now. If what you want is to see about dating Laura, and your wife doesn't want to date Greg... maybe you should start the discussion from there, and figure out what your possibilities are.

Basically I'm getting the impression you may be courting trouble because you are really upset your wife won't act patient and be more considerate, which is understandable but I think you may be on the verge of deciding it is easier to make rash decisions that may benefit you instantly instead of making sure you and your wife hash out her desire to make decisions that benefit her vs what benefits both of you, and to decide if your relationship still makes sense long term.
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  #62  
Old 12-28-2012, 09:50 AM
amk amk is offline
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Smile Anne, you're right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
I'm just throwing out some random thoughts...
You're attracted to Laura, you don't mention (unless I missed something) that Laura and Greg have an open relationship in a sexual way? Even if do are there's a lot of steps between that and anything else.

You may be latching onto Laura's empathy, and desirability, and her being flattered that you want her, to bridge the gap you feel with your wife right now. If what you want is to see about dating Laura, and your wife doesn't want to date Greg... maybe you should start the discussion from there, and figure out what your possibilities are.

Basically I'm getting the impression you may be courting trouble because you are really upset your wife won't act patient and be more considerate, which is understandable but I think you may be on the verge of deciding it is easier to make rash decisions that may benefit you instantly instead of making sure you and your wife hash out her desire to make decisions that benefit her vs what benefits both of you, and to decide if your relationship still makes sense long term.
I agree with your analysis. I was latching onto Laura and I'm sure she sees it (she's perceptive). After having read my posts, she corrected me and stated that since she committed to her husband, they have not been poly. I misinterpreted some of what she had told me previously. Also, I don't have intentions to initiate anything with her or anyone else because you are right, it's trouble. I really don't want to even talk about anyone specific for my wife or I right now; I am not ready. The last thing I want to introduce into this situation is dishonesty, direct or omission. My wife knows I am attracted to Laura. Laura knows too, but I don't want to mess up our friendship. I am vulnerable and I know that equals trouble, too. I could easily fall into a situation with Laura because of my attraction and her position as the understanding and caring party in the absence of that at home.

I also recently came to a "lightbulb moment" of understanding: I was confusing swinging with polyamory. I thought having sex with other people outside the marriage was polyamory. Now, after reading alot of other people's blogs, posts and stories, it suddenly hit me that polyamory is so much more than just sex!

That's why everyone was like "a foursome is a bad idea to start!". I didn't get it, but now I see how if that's not what my wife wants, I shouldn't be upset. I also just realized that polyamory is not always sexual, it can be romantic friendship or dating that never includes sex. When I realized this, I was really taken aback. How could I have been so short-sighted!

In addition, I have ordered Opening Up: A Guide to Creating and Sustaining Open Relationships. I also wrote my wife a very hopeful letter in which I ask her to read this book with me (I titled it my "state-of-the-husband address" - I know, not clever...lol). I hope she is receptive, our communication is pretty screwed up at the moment. I want 2013 to be our best year yet.
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  #63  
Old 12-28-2012, 10:00 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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That is awesome, my mom is a swinger and she really just didn't get how it was "safe" to be open other than that, even though her and her husband were very close friends with a number of their swing partners - I can see how not knowing the options can make you feel differently about polyamory, I certainly didn't even know it existed when my ex and I decided to change from being monogamous.

If "Opening Up" doesn't resonate with you or her, don't be afraid to seek other resources on the books/website recommendations, you should find something that at least fits with one of your guys' ideas about what you want. I really hope you find common language with her, it hopefully will ..hrm...settle her too so she trusts you are listening instead of panicking that you don't understand what she wants (when maybe she doesn't even know what it is yet) and gives her an anchor for these discussions too so she doesn't act rashly.
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  #64  
Old 12-28-2012, 11:49 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
That's why everyone was like "a foursome is a bad idea to start!". I didn't get it, but now I see how if that's not what my wife wants, I shouldn't be upset. I also just realized that polyamory is not always sexual, it can be romantic friendship or dating that never includes sex. When I realized this, I was really taken aback. How could I have been so short-sighted!
Yes.

Swinging is a kind of open relationship. Not all open relationships are swinging. Minestrone is a kind of soup. Not all soups are gonna be minestrone.

Swinging and polyamory are both open model relationship styles. But they are not the same. Minestrone and clam chowder are both soups. But they are not the same.

You may also enjoy reading about love theory. Not everyone subscribes to that, and there's other articles on it if you google, but it's interesting to take a gander at with a partner and see where they may be at. Sometimes looking at a picture together, even if totally wrong for both can help get conversation rolling easier than "staring at a blank page."

Take it slow. Take it easy. Read lots of things, spend time with yourself sorting your own wants, needs, and limits out.

Hopefully you can encourage wife to be doing same. Then you can create common language to communicate to each other and be on the same page in the talking and not be shutting down on one another.

Hang in there!

Galagirl
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  #65  
Old 01-03-2013, 11:36 PM
amk amk is offline
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Default Falling to Pieces

I wrote my wife a letter that I thought was pretty hopeful and in it I asked a lot of questions so I would better understand where she's at. She wouldn't even read it. She said she's no longer interested in other partners and she wants to be alone. This spawned an argument where I felt like she was pretty much done with our marriage. She told me she almost died (which isn't accurate, but it's how she feels, so I understand) and doesn't know what she wants anymore.

Fast forward to a few days later, my wife and I were talking. I was visibly upset and she asked why. I said I was having trouble processing what she told me about wanting to leave me and be alone. She told me that she had once again changed her mind and wants to stay. I asked her why the change of heart and she told me that it's strictly for our son. I asked if she still loved me and she said yes, but that she isn't sure if she's "in love with me". I was wrecked. I don't usually drink, but I finished a bottle that night. Now, I don't know what to think or do. I want and deserve someone who is madly in love with me, not a roomate with benefits. I am so very sad and I know that this is one of the many possibilities that could have occurred. I just felt so hopeful a week ago and now it's all gone.
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  #66  
Old 01-04-2013, 12:10 AM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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It sounds like she got some issues. Does she have any mood disorders or issues with depression.

The vasilating back and forth seems odd. It sounded like she checked out in the begining and now with the refusal to read a simple letter tells me she made up her mind and she doesn't want to be confused by your words. Wants to stay out. Sorry.
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  #67  
Old 01-04-2013, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amk View Post
I wrote my wife a letter that I thought was pretty hopeful and in it I asked a lot of questions so I would better understand where she's at
I don't know if this will help, but I've been going through this myself - and there was a turning point for me that doesn't seem to have happened with you.

Right now, it sounds like your wife will not be happy in a monogamous relationship. Period.

The hard realization I had was that there were really only two options - break up or accept poly. Pretending monogamy was an option was just a fantasy that dragged things out and made us both miserable.

It may be different for you, but it sounds like a happy mono relationship is not in the cards anymore - and if you accept that then you can get out of this horrible limbo.

Best of luck
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  #68  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:05 AM
sparklepop sparklepop is offline
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Hi amk,

I just sat and read through this entire thread. Wow. I am so sorry to read about this turn of events. It looked hopeful for a while there.

A lot has already been said, so I'll try not to go over the same things and overwhelm you.

You've got one thing dead right - you *do* deserve someone who is madly in love with you. It is possible to maintain a beautiful friendship with someone you have previously been 'in' love with.... it is absolutely possible to have that kind of arrangement in poly. The world is really your oyster now. So many monogamous people are stuck in passionless marriages and decide to plough for the children. You have an opportunity here. You can be free to find someone who feels that passion for you, with or without her. I'd seriously consider that opportunity.

It sounds to me, in very basic form, that she was originally attracted to someone else, or other people, and essentially hoped you would ok it. That point didn't come. Perhaps she resents you for that. It's an easy trap to fall into. You can take even the most sweet, sensitive, wonderful person and be surprised at how child-like they can become when the Id takes over. I am not calling your wife childish. But I am feeling that her behaviour is exhibiting signs of 'kid in candy store'. I love my girlfriend dearly, but when she wants something, boy, does she want it. Her patience runs short, she snaps, she can be cold. It's basically an adult tantrum.

We all have an inner child. We all want to indulge. On a serious level, we all want to be fulfilled and enjoy experiences in life. It's likely that your wife has been breeding resentment, coupled with frustration, disappointment and a loss of hope. Poly is damn hard. I've been poly for two years and only now do I feel like I'm seeing a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. In poly, you can see the utter worst and utter best of your partner - it's quite astonishing.

I do have one glimmer of hope for you, in the way of an anecdote. I hope it feels relevant and that it helps somewhat.

My GF and her husband were married for around 10 or 11 years, when she essentially gave him an ultimatum of poly or divorce. They had been through a rough time, due to the birth of their daughter, job loss, moving home, losing a lot of money and other issues. He has always been very dependent on her, quite clingy really, and obsessive over issues. She felt stifled and needed freedom. He was very mono-wired. He basically agreed to poly for fear of losing her otherwise.

I met her 6 months after this event and their marriage was extremely rocky for the first year of our relationship. Incidentally, not because of me. I actually encouraged her to stay and work through it. She was going through a stage of "I want I want I want". She was actually being quite rude to her husband, after years of resentment had built up inside her. During this time, she constantly went back and forth, threatening him with divorce, then saying that she wanted to work it out. She was very conflicted.

He was very unhappy with being poly, but stayed because he felt he couldn't be without her. Only very recently has he started to appreciate what poly can do for him. Since his mindset started to shift, their relationship has started to become close again. She no longer talks about divorce and now says wholeheartedly what she wants to be with him.

Changes can take time and you do not sound like the kind of person who takes the idea of marriage lightly. It is awful to live in a state of limbo when you are the one aching for more from your partner.

This is going to sound horribly cliched, but do you ever wonder if there has been too much talking? I know that my girlfriend and I can sometimes fall into the trap of talking about our relationship more than living it. When we realise that is happening, we make an effort to go and do something fun together. Sometimes we need reminding of why we are in a relationship; rather than constant reminders of the difficulties we are facing. At a crossroad, we are much more likely to want to walk down the sunny fork than the gloomy one.

If your wife is closing down, pushing that idea might close her down further. I'm thinking that you only have two options left - throw yourself into saving your marriage, once and for all; even if it means doing things that are terrifying for you. Or, throw yourself into saving yourself; whether or not the marriage survives it. Option one means starting to take active steps towards a new, polyamorous marriage and giving yourself a timeframe to re-evaluate, such as a year. Option two means telling her that you deserve someone who is madly in love with you and considering the possibility of leaving, or living together but dating others. Either way, do you know what I would do? I'd avoid the hangovers and put the bottle down, stand up straight, put my bravest face on and present the best possible version of myself. Not only would it show your wife that you are strong; but, more importantly, it would make *you* feel more empowered.

You've got to pick yourself up. Pick yourself up. Pick yourself up. Take control of your life. You're completely in charge of it. Start calling a few shots of your own. You don't want to be in a relationship with someone who isn't sure they want to be with you. Say that. Let her feel it. She says this stuff because she can. She's said it before and you've stayed. Don't make empty threats - but tell the truth. You're not happy. You want to, at the very least, salvage a friendship, or the future potential of a happy marriage. Sticking around, waiting on her, doing nothing, is not going to achieve that. I have confidence from your posts that you have the strength inside you - you just need to channel it.
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  #69  
Old 01-05-2013, 02:31 AM
amk amk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepop View Post
You've got one thing dead right - you *do* deserve someone who is madly in love with you. It is possible to maintain a beautiful friendship with someone you have previously been 'in' love with.... it is absolutely possible to have that kind of arrangement in poly. The world is really your oyster now. So many monogamous people are stuck in passionless marriages and decide to plough for the children. You have an opportunity here. You can be free to find someone who feels that passion for you, with or without her. I'd seriously consider that opportunity.
You make a good point that I really came to realize this week. After going through this last year of agonizing about every detail, I really reached a breaking point this week: I no longer care what happens, I just want to be done getting hurt.

To that end, I told my wife earlier this week that I just don't have anything left when it comes to fighting to keep us together. I encouraged her to take whatever time she needs to figure out what she wants and just go do it. I'm no longer waiting around, she can leave me or she can stay, but I told her she needs to make a decision, commit to it and stop wavering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepop View Post
It sounds to me, in very basic form, that she was originally attracted to someone else, or other people, and essentially hoped you would ok it. That point didn't come. Perhaps she resents you for that. It's an easy trap to fall into. You can take even the most sweet, sensitive, wonderful person and be surprised at how child-like they can become when the Id takes over. I am not calling your wife childish. But I am feeling that her behaviour is exhibiting signs of 'kid in candy store'. I love my girlfriend dearly, but when she wants something, boy, does she want it. Her patience runs short, she snaps, she can be cold. It's basically an adult tantrum.
I don't think she knows what she wants yet, but you're right, she wanted carte blanche to figure it out on my heart's dime and when I didn't give it, she got upset! Since she refuses to discuss anything about opening our marriage or read with me the book I purchased, I have reached the point at which I am done trying. I am not giving up, I just don't care anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepop View Post
This is going to sound horribly cliched, but do you ever wonder if there has been too much talking? I know that my girlfriend and I can sometimes fall into the trap of talking about our relationship more than living it. When we realise that is happening, we make an effort to go and do something fun together. Sometimes we need reminding of why we are in a relationship; rather than constant reminders of the difficulties we are facing. At a crossroad, we are much more likely to want to walk down the sunny fork than the gloomy one.
Too much talking? I doubt that. I have stifled 90% of my thoughts and feelings because EVERY time I bring them up, she runs away. I have tried to just have fun with her, but she's not the same person she once was. She's cold, unfeeling and moody around me. Love was effortless between us for 11 years, and this past year it was agonizing and difficult to say the least.

I am not choosing anything at the moment, I am remaining in place and giving my wife the freedom to do what she will. At the same time, I am removing myself from her presence because I have been hurt too much and I can't take anymore, AT ALL. I've reached my limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepop View Post
If your wife is closing down, pushing that idea might close her down further. I'm thinking that you only have two options left - throw yourself into saving your marriage, once and for all; even if it means doing things that are terrifying for you. Or, throw yourself into saving yourself; whether or not the marriage survives it.
For now, self preservation is all I can think about. I tried desperately to save my marriage and it seems like I did more harm than good and at great cost to my own heart. I still love my wife more today than yesterday, but I can't let her "in" unless she's sure she's staying. Today she says she IS, in fact, in love with me... tomorrow, who knows. Her fickle emotion is more than I can bear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklepop View Post
You've got to pick yourself up. Pick yourself up. Pick yourself up. Take control of your life. You're completely in charge of it. Start calling a few shots of your own. You don't want to be in a relationship with someone who isn't sure they want to be with you. Say that. Let her feel it. She says this stuff because she can. She's said it before and you've stayed. Don't make empty threats - but tell the truth. You're not happy. You want to, at the very least, salvage a friendship, or the future potential of a happy marriage. Sticking around, waiting on her, doing nothing, is not going to achieve that. I have confidence from your posts that you have the strength inside you - you just need to channel it.
Thank-you for the encouragement. I am taking steps to protect myself and I have contacted a lawyer for retainer if things start to get out of control. I am doing my best to focus on my son and myself, which is hard because I'm not used to being selfish.

As far as staying with her in any capacity while she is exploring poly, I'm not there yet, and I told her it would be 6-12 months before I could forsee being ok with the idea. I think that's outside her timetable despite her saying that she's not even interested in it anymore.

WHY CAN'T LIFE BE SIMPLE, LIKE IN MY BRAIN!!! LOL

Last edited by amk; 01-05-2013 at 02:34 AM.
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  #70  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:38 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Thank-you for the encouragement. I am taking steps to protect myself and I have contacted a lawyer for retainer if things start to get out of control. I am doing my best to focus on my son and myself, which is hard because I'm not used to being selfish.
You are responsible for your well being. It is NOT selfish to decide to put your own oxygen mask on when you have no air. You are not doing anything hurtful to her by seeking out your options and giving her the space to own it.

Ball's in her court. She can choose her next move and inform you what that is.

If she cannot decide and keeps on this way, it is hurtful to your emotional and mental health. You may reach another limit and decide "Alright. Gave you plenty time. Now I choose to leave." It could be safer to love her from a safe distance and out of the line of fire and away from Limbo Land so you can reach out for YOUR next Happiness.

She'll always be the mother of your shared son, and a love of your life. But she does not have to be "the current, active love" of ALL your life, esp if she's hurting you by her behavior and refusal to talk.

You are willing to talk, she is not. You cannot control her. You cannot talk to a wall. So you have to do what you have to doin order to preserve your long term health and well being. If she's not getting with the program to at least communicate what's going on? She's choosing destructive behavior to the relationship. A relationship cannot exist without communication. There's no RELATING going on.

I'm fortunate to be on good (if not close) terms with my exes and I enjoy hearing about their lives once in a great while. Both were a love of my life. But I'm not married to either, and neither is a "current active love" of my life. And guess what? I am not dead because of it. My life went on. I'm happy in my life. Their lives went on. I hope they are happy in theirs.

You will be ok however it is this ends up. You have been through the wringer and in your process you sound like YOU at least are moving it forward to a better zone and coming back into better relationship with YOURSELF. Taking care of YOU. You and your son would appreciate a healthy YOU.

Quote:
As far as staying with her in any capacity while she is exploring poly, I'm not there yet, and I told her it would be 6-12 months before I could forsee being ok with the idea. I think that's outside her timetable despite her saying that she's not even interested in it anymore.
You gave your communication clearly. You have a limit, that's where you are at right now. She can choose to work with you from where you are at with it and take your wants, needs, and limits into consideration. Or choose not to.

Then you get to make YOUR next move. Don't rush to fix it, let her own her own baggage. We are free to choose. We are not free from the consequence of our choices. Let her feel natural consequences. Don't have to be MEAN, but don't have to bend over backwards either. NO. You are not thrilled with her behavior right now. YES, you'd prefer she behave herself in a more realistic/reasonable fashion and try to come to the happy medium compromise with your and negotiate rather than tantrum at you.

That she does not like what she hears is certainly not your fault or issue. It is her issue, and if she wants to be in healthy relationship with you, in RIGHT relationship with you? She could consider what you say. Consider your wants, needs, and limits, respect that, and treat you with kind/loving behavior. Treat your relationship in constructive ways rather than destructive ones so the relationship is nurtured.

Has she had a check up? Since you say the first 11 years with her were good -- could she be suffering from mental illness like mood disorders, bipolar, or depression or anything that would make her recent behavior explainable?

Note I say explainable. It is still not excuse and you may not be up for dealing with it even if that is the reason. Everyone has personal limitations.

But you could perhaps feel more like "So THIS is what we have then! That explains it!" rather than enduring this "WTF Ball of Weird Obdurate!?" from her like she just wants her own way all the time.

Quote:
I am not choosing anything at the moment, I am remaining in place and giving my wife the freedom to do what she will. At the same time, I am removing myself from her presence because I have been hurt too much and I can't take anymore, AT ALL. I've reached my limit.
I am so glad to hear you are at this place and looking after your OWN health and well being. Again, it is NOT selfish to do that!

You have a responsibility to yourself.

GL!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-05-2013 at 06:20 AM.
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