Can I get a bit of feedback?

[UpsideDown]

Originally Posted by River

I could have used a lot more care in how I expressed myself in that post, and I'm sorry for being unclear on many things related to the subject. Still, I think what I meant to say remains basically valid...But I did mean to say that you can't undo the inquiry that has begun to unfold -- whether or not the two of you continue to talk about that inquiry.

I've already told you I disagree with this statement, and yet you persist on repeating it. This is not the opening of some huge and grand inquiry into further life-fulfillment for us, at least not as we are seeing it. This is the chance for me to explore an accidentally sprouted relationship, in and of itself, with my husband's blessing... Yes, there may be more boundaries on it than some others would place on their relationships, but we've always been rather big into boundaries and making sure to not make the other person unhappy or uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by River

You might choose to drop the inquiry somewhat. But I wouldn't recommend that, because the inquiry is valuable whether or not you and your husband decide to open your relationship at some point. Especially valuable to consider, I think, is WHY you might be able and willing to love (romantically) another person besides your husband but the very thought of your husband doing so causes you great distress.

I'm not sure that line of questioning has inherent value outside of a practical situation. I think I am able to love someone in a romantic-ish fashion only because it seems to have happened. I think that for my husband, sex and romance are far more intertwined than they are for me, and that the sexual aspects of that possibility causes me distress. If I was involved in a heavily sexual "romance", or even looking at being in one, he would likewise be distressed. There.

Originally Posted by River

So, yeah, I did suggest some advice, rather indirectly. I suggested keeping that inquiry alive and following it where it goes. That's my advice. And doing THAT doesn't require you to change your relationship from mono to poly (or any other kind of non-monogamy). I suppose the weakness of my post is that this advice was more implicit than explicit.

The weakness of your post is the assumption that there is some sort of inherent value in exploring this past the specific relationship in question. I don't see that there is, especially as DH hasn't expressed a desire for another romantic relationship, and I am not going to go out looking for one my own damn self.

Originally Posted by River

You're right. You can choose to stop the whole process, including the fruitful inquiry into the source or root of the above-mentioned distress. If it is advice you want, I'd advice against retreating from the inquiry.

I believe the discussion is fruitful in that it allows me to be prepared to deal with DH in an honest and real way. I do not see that continued distress, just for the philosophical joy of theorizing, is worth much of anything...or that allowing this one off-shoot to go where it will before continuing on our merry mono path would be a bad thing.

[UpsideDown]

Originally Posted by River

I was simply sharing MY perspective, which is borne of a longer duration of experience and inquiry. I may have been slightly hyperbolic in tone, though.

Anyway, I don't think words must be advisory in order to be helpful or useful.

Not hyperbolic. Preachy, perhaps.

Navel-gazing isn't helpful or useful.

[UpsideDown]

Originally Posted by kdt26417

Well yes, I agree. I kind of spaced on the idea of a PG/PG-13 line being drawn for both spouses.

He drew a PG13 line for me, and I was asking what I should do about the fact that even those lines would make me uncomfortable if he decided to take up a relationship. Do I only go as far as I'd be comfortable letting him go? Is equality necessarily the same thing as parity?

[UpsideDown]

Originally Posted by kdt26417

I think that ultimately you'll have to do some trial and error to find out what works for you. Some poly relationships do have "out-of-balance" rules/expectations going from one partner to another, but still work because the one partner doesn't have the same interests as the other partner.

What tends to be universally helpful in the midst of uncertainty is to go slow (which you're already doing), communicate a lot (which I think you're doing), re-negotiate periodically as needed, and keep learning all you can about the ins and outs of polyamory. If you're already doing those things, then you'll probably be fine.

A comforting and pragmatic approach. We do take things slow, commuincate often and honestly, and are learning to renegotiate around the needs of the other person. If that's all that can be done, and if out-of-balance sometimes works for other people, then I will continue the introspection and set aside some of the panic. Thank you.

[ThatGirlInGray]

Originally Posted by UpsideDown

DH would not want me in a non-sexual D/s relationship with anyone else, although I wouldn't care if he had one (under a broad set of circumstances). He is alright with me taking a work trip out of town with CG and holding her all night...I would not be okay with him doing that with anyone. Do those kinds of not-in-kind exchanges work for other people?

Sure. I could give you all kinds of examples from my own relationships, but ultimately here's what decides what is "fair": Are you okay with it? Is he okay with it? Are any other people involved okay with it? Ultimately that's all that matters. We learn from the time we're children that "fair" doesn't always mean "equal" or "the same". That applies here too.

[UpsideDown]

Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray

Sure. I could give you all kinds of examples from my own relationships, but ultimately here's what decides what is "fair": Are you okay with it? Is he okay with it? Are any other people involved okay with it? Ultimately that's all that matters. We learn from the time we're children that "fair" doesn't always mean "equal" or "the same". That applies here too.

I wasn't getting that feeling in these other discussions, but I am glad this is something I am not alone in thinking. Thanks.

[Anneintherain]

Originally Posted by UpsideDown

I disagree with your whole premise, although I understand what you are saying. I feel we more took the lid of a box, stared at the innards, and decided to lift one thing out to try on as a possibility. If that doesn't fit, there's nothing that says we need to revisit the box. The same as people who decide to try some form of BDSM play in their world, and find it doesn't work for them, have no obligation to stay in the kink world.

It probably isn't helpful to keep trying to pick apart everything River said. Lots of people give advice others don't agree with, I'd suggest just letting it go. It's a public forum, if you aren't open to a a wide variety of feedback, then asking for advice probably isn't something you will want to do much of.

I believe it's true, whether or not you ever act on anything after opening the box and looking inside, things HAVE changed a bit, in what you know and think of each other. Just like now that you have told CG how you feel, things can never go back to the way they were if you never told her, because you both are aware that things are different than they were. So you might not revisit the box, but everybody knows what was in the box, and life looks a bit different today than it did before y'all saw what was there.

I believe unequal rules work fine as long as everybody involved is happy with the set up. Obviously if you would like to go to the 1/2 mile with CG but are only comfortable with him getting to the 1/3 mile mark with anybody, there may be more risk that someday down the road he will want to join you in having a relationship that can go to the 1/2 mile mark. All you can really do is take him at his word when he says how he feels and what he wants now and hope he will speak up if he wants something, or if something bothers him.

[UpsideDown]

Originally Posted by Anneintherain

It probably isn't helpful to keep trying to pick apart everything River said. Lots of people give advice others don't agree with, I'd suggest just letting it go. It's a public forum, if you aren't open to a a wide variety of feedback, then asking for advice probably isn't something you will want to do much of.

I believe it's true, whether or not you ever act on anything after opening the box and looking inside, things HAVE changed a bit, in what you know and think of each other. Just like now that you have told CG how you feel, things can never go back to the way they were if you never told her, because you both are aware that things are different than they were. So you might not revisit the box, but everybody knows what was in the box, and life looks a bit different today than it did before y'all saw what was there.

I believe unequal rules work fine as long as everybody involved is happy with the set up. Obviously if you would like to go to the 1/2 mile with CG but are only comfortable with him getting to the 1/3 mile mark with anybody, there may be more risk that someday down the road he will want to join you in having a relationship that can go to the 1/2 mile mark. All you can really do is take him at his word when he says how he feels and what he wants now and hope he will speak up if he wants something, or if something bothers him.

Thank you. I did want advice, whether that advice be that I had to allow him the exact same rules or that it was all up to what made everyone involved comfortable. After being told that my advice was abstract and preachy, I'd have gone away...and River continued to press a viewpoint that was neither unhelpful nor welcome. I find that rude.

I agree that the view changes once one has seen the box, but it doesn't necessarily change drastically, nor does it need to continue to change. Yes, you know there's stuff in the box, but if you decide it isn't worth it, you can pretty well ignore it.

I like the 1/2 mile analogy, although I'd say I just don't want him running the same 1/2 mile I do. Maybe he goes north and I go east?

[nycindie]

As to your original post in this thread, I was going to respond to your questions:

Am I being utterly unfair in this? Does this make me a terrible person?

No, of course, you're not a terrible person and, by virtue of the fact that you even ask that, obviously you have compassion and are wrestling with these issues. You seem to have a good amount of awareness about your issues/motives for not wanting him to love anyone else nor be sexual with anyone else. It's only unfair if one person dictated what the other should do without asking for input and considering what they want. Fair doesn't always mean equal, and relationships shouldn't be tit-for-tat (IMHO). However, I do suggest you keep asking yourself why your stomach gets into knots, play out some imaginary "what if" scenarios in your head and really pinpoint the things that make you most uncomfortable. More self-knowledge is never a bad thing. And keep talking talking talking.


BTW, River is one of the most well-intentioned, compassionate, spirit-focused, good, good people who post here and I don't think he has a rude bone in his body. You quite misread and misinterpreted what he wrote. I mean, hey, you can't unring a bell - all he was saying is that you've started on a road of questioning the parameters of your marriage, and doing so has altered how you look at each other, the contract of marriage in general, and what choices are available to you. Possibilities have expanded, your knowledge of each other deepened, your communication skills challenged, and so on, and it would be hard not to keep seeking new ways to enhance and nurture your relationship with your DH, no matter what those paths could be - including remaining monogamous if you so wanted. So chill - he was not rude by any means.

[UpsideDown]

Originally Posted by nycindie

No, of course, you're not a terrible person and, by virtue of the fact that you even ask that, obviously you have compassion and are wrestling with these issues. You seem to have a good amount of awareness about your issues/motives for not wanting him to love anyone else nor be sexual with anyone else. It's only unfair if one person dictated what the other should do without asking for input and considering what they want. Fair doesn't always mean equal, and relationships shouldn't be tit-for-tat (IMHO). However, I do suggest you keep asking yourself why your stomach gets into knots, play out some imaginary "what if" scenarios in your head and really pinpoint the things that make you most uncomfortable. More self-knowledge is never a bad thing. And keep talking talking talking.

I really do think that I get tied up in knots because any romantic relationship for him would be overtly sexual. This is not proving to be the case for me. The what-if scenarios are what led me to the separation of D/s, sex, touch, kissing and physical closeness. Some of those I could possibly get behind if asked. Some...well the thought of them turns my guts.

As to the other poster, I'm not sure how to better phrase my post. Do I need to ask for "practical advice, anecdotes or pragmatic applicable theory only"? Do I need to ask for people to not assume DH and I want to explore poly to its fullest limits or that we both necessarily want other lovers? I truly don't see the value of uncomfortable self-knowledge for its own sake, unless it has a probable application, and I felt badgered by his multiple responses as he continued to reinforce the same point (which I had said I understood but didn't agree with).

I apologize if I misread his intent, but he seemed very "worldlier-than-thou" and rather sure that his perspective was one I would agree with if only I was able to understand it. I'm not a fan of being talked down to, and (perhaps incorrectly) read his tone as condescending. My apologies if that was the case.