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  #61  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:48 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Is Chipmunk just an additional sex partner for Airyn, or are they in love? I wonder because she seems to be a lot of work for him, though not as much as she is for you. Why does he keep her around? I just don't get it at all. She's such a mopey child, must be some darn good sex - but even that doesn't seem worth the trouble she puts you both through if it's just sex or guilt or not knowing what else to do now that he's in the thick of it. Even if he does love her, love isn't enough to make it work. What does he see in her, and why can't he enjoy a relationship with her if she lives with roommates somewhere and sees him less often? From here, it seems like he wants to be in control of where she is and what she does. If I were him, I'd have broken it off and kicked her out long ago.

And it seems like she is just staying because she has a warm bed and doesn't have to make it on her own as long as you two provide for her.
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Last edited by nycindie; 12-06-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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  #62  
Old 12-06-2012, 09:06 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Is Chipmunk just an additional sex partner for Airyn, or are they in love? I wonder because she seems to be a lot of work for him, though not as much as she is for you. Why does he keep her around? I just don't get it at all. She's such a mopey child, must be some darn good sex - but even that doesn't seem worth the trouble she puts you both through if it's just sex or guilt or not knowing what else to do now that he's in the thick of it. Even if he does love her, love isn't enough to make it work. What does he see in her, and why can't he enjoy a relationship with her if she lives with roommates somewhere and sees him less often? From here, it seems like he wants to be in control of where she is and what she does. If I were him, I'd have broken it off and kicked her out long ago.

And it seems like she is just staying because she has a warm bed and doesn't have to make it on her own as long as you two provide for her.
Some of this is obviously true, and some of it is partly true.

They are in love. I don't think that the sex is necessarily all that "great", but that could just be my perception. Personally I prefer a partner who is more actively a participant. Someone who moves, makes sounds, shows that they are enjoying themselves, and that they are enjoying their partner. To me she doesn't seem to be doing that, but then I have not participated in sex with them in months things may have changed.

I think Airyn is dealing with guilt, and a lot of not knowing what to do. He believes that for Chipmunk this relationship survives on daily contact. That she feels second, and less important. This is why she demands so much of his attention when we are all together. He believes that her moving out will amplify this feeling of secondness, will reduce their daily contact to occasional few days a week, and that she'll end it over his inattention and proximity. I point out that most relationship start out with a lot less proximity, and that phone calls, and texts are daily contact options when he's not going to see her face to face that day. I can't fix her lack of social and relationship skills All I can do is tell her the time to grow up is now.

Part of why she is still with us is because she wants to not have to make it on her own. She wants someone else to take care of her so she doesn't have to. She relies on us to do most things for her. This is part of the problem. I'm tired of it. It's time she faces reality. She is living with a married man, and can not have 100% of his attention just because they are sharing the same space at that moment.

*Sigh* I'm not in a good place, angry, then sad, then angry. I really don't see that I am being unreasonable. But maybe it's to much to ask. I don't know. Airyn says he is preparing him self for the end. That he feels he has no control in where this will go from here. That it is all between she and I. Sounds to me like resentment.
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Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #63  
Old 12-07-2012, 12:06 AM
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He believes that her moving out will amplify this feeling of secondness, will reduce their daily contact to occasional few days a week, and that she'll end it over his inattention and proximity. . . .
A few days a week is inattention? I would call it a normal boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. Living together right off the bat is what is odd. Anyway, if she moved out and had to be self-sufficient, and then broke up with Airyn because of that, it would only prove she's just using him for a place to stay. Why would he want to still be involved with someone like that anyway? I question this love of theirs, seriously.

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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
Part of why she is still with us is because she wants to not have to make it on her own. She wants someone else to take care of her so she doesn't have to.
Yeah... she doesn't have a boyfriend. She has a daddy that she fucks in order to avoid the real world.

Sorry for such harsh words.

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I really don't see that I am being unreasonable.
LOL, no, honey, being unreasonable is certainly not your downfall! I think it's exactly your reasonableness that makes your blog a bit difficult to read. I think many of us wish you would get angry a little more often. I could never put up with everything you put up with, and I don't know many others who would, either. Hang in there! Maybe Airyn will open his eyes and see what's really going on, without blaming you.
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"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein
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  #64  
Old 12-07-2012, 12:53 AM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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Oh sweetie I do wish you'd been taking some of the advice you've been getting. I know this is a blog and not a regular thread but I think that the problem is that you aren't putting responsibility in the right place. Emailing that to Chipmunk isn't going to do anything, who a letter like that should've gone to is Airyn. I think the only email that really needed to go to Chipmunk is a "these are the chore and financial agreements that you need to keep up with as a roomate"

Most of this wouldn't be a problem at all if you and Airyn had made appropriate agreements and boundaries between yourself. If you sit down with him and he agrees to things that will make you feel you are getting what you need from him (set date nights where its just you two, staying home at lunch to be with you instead of going off to bring Chipmunk lunch, taking turns holding hands with each of you when you are out, or WHATEVER it is you want) and he upheld his end, there wouldn't be a problem

I don't know if you have the "Opening Up" book, but I really think you two need to sit down and hash out some boundaries today from the ground up, and then I think you both need to stick to them. It just seems like nobody is stopping an imminent explosion.

I think you both made a big mistake not letting her move out when she said she wanted to, and I don't know why you are all still in the situation. I want to reflect something back to you, and ask you to really think about it. This is part of your email to Chipmunk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post

Above all:
You are an adult, you are responsible for your actions, for your inaction's, for your communication, for your miscommunication, and lack of communication. You are responsible for owning how you feel, and discussing what you want/need.

-----------------------------------------------
I value people's worth/dignity. It demands respect. In relationship I want

PARTNERS HAVE RIGHT TO:
Clear communication
Expect support from partner
Be nurtured
Get needs met
Responsiveness
Constructive feedback
Constructive conflict resolution

PARTNERS EACH BE RESPONSIBLE FOR:
Know and state needs, wants and limits
Follow thru on promises
Know the math tiers in this config
Your own and your partner's healths: mental, emotional, physical, spiritual
Emergency preparedness
Care for own equipment/stuff
Tell if keeping a confidence can hurt someone/is hurting someone
I see you failing to provide clear communication to Airyn, and him not providing clear communication to Chipmunk, I see you and Airyn failing a lot of the things on those lists. You are trying to fix Chipmunk before you are fixing yourselves, and this is why you are not going to have much luck. I am not sure why you aren't demanding more from your husband and asking for and getting what you need, but until he (and you) shift your focus for being accountable for taking care your relationship with each other, I don't imagine this is going to start going in a positive direction.
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  #65  
Old 12-07-2012, 08:29 AM
Numina Numina is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
A few days a week is inattention? I would call it a normal boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. Living together right off the bat is what is odd. Anyway, if she moved out and had to be self-sufficient, and then broke up with Airyn because of that, it would only prove she's just using him for a place to stay. Why would he want to still be involved with someone like that anyway? I question this love of theirs, seriously.

Yeah... she doesn't have a boyfriend. She has a daddy that she fucks in order to avoid the real world.
Sorry for such harsh words.

LOL, no, honey, being unreasonable is certainly not your downfall! I think it's exactly your reasonableness that makes your blog a bit difficult to read. I think many of us wish you would get angry a little more often. I could never put up with everything you put up with, and I don't know many others who would, either. Hang in there! Maybe Airyn will open his eyes and see what's really going on, without blaming you.

Your not being harsh, your stating what I've been seeing, and trying to say to Airyn. I told Airyn once that I'm waiting for him to wakeup and see what's really there. I have felt up till his Mom visted for Halloween that I couldn't say a whole lot about how she treats him, and what I see. I felt that it would be like telling your best friend that you know her boyfriend is cheating on her. Usually you hear how that ends poorly, and the best friend accuse you of trying to get in the middle of her relationship, or of trying to steal her boyfriend. I didn't want to be that person.

But when Airyn's mom had the same complaints, and saw the same things I did. I told Airyn that when two of the important people in his life are seeing, and saying the same things then maybe he should pay attention, listen, and start doing something about it. As you can see that conversation didn't go any where. As I'm the one who is point all these things out to Chipmunk, and telling her to change her tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
Oh sweetie I do wish you'd been taking some of the advice you've been getting. I know this is a blog and not a regular thread but I think that the problem is that you aren't putting responsibility in the right place. Emailing that to Chipmunk isn't going to do anything, who a letter like that should've gone to is Airyn. I think the only email that really needed to go to Chipmunk is a "these are the chore and financial agreements that you need to keep up with as a roomate"
Airyn has heard it all before, none of what was in that email was new to him. He then read what I said, and was in complete agreement. I'll write a seprate post to talk about where things are now. Airyn is with me on every point I was making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
Most of this wouldn't be a problem at all if you and Airyn had made appropriate agreements and boundaries between yourself. If you sit down with him and he agrees to things that will make you feel you are getting what you need from him (set date nights where its just you two, staying home at lunch to be with you instead of going off to bring Chipmunk lunch, taking turns holding hands with each of you when you are out, or WHATEVER it is you want) and he upheld his end, there wouldn't be a problem
We had NO boundaries, or agreements between he and I when we went into this. It was a mistake. The one boundary that I asked for as things moved forward was crossed multiple times. Some one said that after that I gave up making boundaries. Maybe I did. I have started to insist on certain things however, and will have to enforce what I am asking for.

Changing habits, and breaking bad ones is hard, and time consuming. I know I have a lot of work to do. I have told Airyn that he and I need to work on US, and that he also needs to work on himself. No one likes hearing that, so he was resistant at first. Then one day he and I were talking, and he started using terms, and knowledge I had shared with him from these forums. That's when I saw he was willing to learn, and grow from this. It's a long slow crawl, and I can see some progress where he is concerned. Life is difficult, and I can see it getting better.

One way or a other things will change. I have told them both very as clearly as I am able (at this moment) that change HAS to happen in order for this to continue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
I don't know if you have the "Opening Up" book, but I really think you two need to sit down and hash out some boundaries today from the ground up, and then I think you both need to stick to them. It just seems like nobody is stopping an imminent explosion.
I think you both made a big mistake not letting her move out when she said she wanted to, and I don't know why you are all still in the situation. I want to reflect something back to you, and ask you to really think about it. This is part of your email to Chipmunk.

I see you failing to provide clear communication to Airyn, and him not providing clear communication to Chipmunk, I see you and Airyn failing a lot of the things on those lists. You are trying to fix Chipmunk before you are fixing yourselves, and this is why you are not going to have much luck. I am not sure why you aren't demanding more from your husband and asking for and getting what you need, but until he (and you) shift your focus for being accountable for taking care your relationship with each other, I don't imagine this is going to start going in a positive direction.
I have seen that book title in other place on these forums, but do not have a copy of it yet. I did follow a link from GalaGirl that was sadly broken, but had to do with that book. I actually have a list of books that I want to own, read, and learn from that I have heard about via these forums.

You are right about my needing to work on Communication, and Airyn needing to also. I am, he is starting to, and we are. What I am doing with Chipmunk is telling her that she has too also. That she has to start working on these things. I did admit to my needing to work on things also. I was not laying everything down on Chipmunk, or at least I was trying not to.

----------------------------------------
Thank you two. I need to hear these things. It helps keep me in perspective. More to come I'll be sharing shortly how things are currently going.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #66  
Old 12-07-2012, 09:49 AM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Not happy stuff from yesterday.

Conversation with Airyn Wednesday night after sending the email to Chipmunk, after Airyn had been dealing with Chipmunks stress, and tears.

He and I talked, he was sad, and hurt. Feeling like she was leaving for good, and telling me that he has been trying to detach himself from her for the past few weeks. That he's preparing for her to leave. I told him he was the one being negative. That she can choose to stay, and work on herself, or she can go. I also told him that her going does not have to be the end of THEM.

We talked about some possibilities for her moving out, that he doesn't see her as being able to make the changes, or work at them. That she's not careful of herself, and is too trusting of others. That he worries, and fears for her safety if/when she moves out. Walking home late at night, or getting a ride from someone at work. We talked about how this is how people survive. Learning who they can and can not trust. I pointed out to him that he has been telling her that he is the ONLY one she can trust instead of talking to her, teaching, and showing her how to find peole that can be trusted. It was a leaghty conversation. I eventually started getting angry and told him we needed to talk about something else.

So here's part of our conversation after that.Not all of it, but some of it.

I told Airyn that I wanted to share a memory with him, that I had written a sad email to him, but that I have no intention of sending it, but that I'd like him to read the memory. He was agreeable. And this is what I sent:

When we were younger we broke up for a time. Before you started dating Jenna. You set up a cot for me in your room. I remember watching you sleep, playing with your hair, touching your face. I was so sad, hurt. I felt that you still loved me, but didn't know if you would ever share that love with me again. I was scared. And there was still so much passion between us. I remember most nights you'd pull me into your bed anyway. You would be upset afterwards, and tell me harshly that I'm easy and a habit you can't break and that you want me out. But it was that passion that kept me hopeful.

Today I still enjoy watching you sleep holding you. Stroking your hair, rubbing your back, neck, shoulders. Touching as much of you as I can. That passion though, it's not the same. I'm confused, I know that you still love me, but often I don't feel that passion coming from you any more. It makes me sad, and worried. I want to be happy, and I want you to be happy. Most of the time we aren't happy in this current relationship. We have good times, and good days, but there are more sad moments, and harsh times.


I'm done bending, and contorting to allow this relationship between you and Christina. You told me after I officially ended things with Christina that you may be asking to much of me. That you are hopeful we can make it work for a few months (6 at that time) till we move. I don't feel like there will be much left of ME if things continue in this way.


I told you after the roommate comment that I was tired. Tired of being last on your mind, tired of this relationship, tired of working so hard for small reasonable things. Just Tired of it all.

I want you to be happy, but I also want to be happy myself. I have not been truly happy for far too long, and I'm tired. I need peace, I need love, and contentment. I had that once, and I want it again. I want it with you, but I can not make you happy any more. We used to be happy together. Now I only know happiness for the short periods we have alone, when something hasn't happened to shatter that.

I don't want to find, or be with a women as much as I want you to love me. I want you in my life, I want to feel cared about, appreciated, loved, and cherished by you. This life we live now was not what we wanted, it isn't what we talked about, what we agreed to, or what we should have now. It's what you continue to cling to even when it became clear that it was not working a long while ago. I'm not leaving you. It's you who has left me in many ways.

You have grown distant It's not just one or two things recently. It is a lot of things over time, for a long while. If she leaves, and it will make you happy to go with her, then you should do that. All I expect if you do is that you still be willing to co-parent with me. ok

First he said, "I'm sure you'll have all that."
Then he told me that moving out with Chipmunk was never an option, it is only me who has thought that it was. That he has never considered it. That he and I are together, that it is comsic, metaphysical.

Here'se things went from there (gmail chat):
Airyn: I said I'm sure you'll have all that because I am... You're reading too much into it. Being sad about Chipmunk leaving is far from wanting to leave with her. Being uncomfortable in our situation and distant is far from not wanting to be with you.

me: It leave me little to cling to in my part of this situation.
I feel like I'm grasping at threads. like your slipping away.
I keep saying I'm not going any where
that I'm still here
what I'm not saying is that I see you leaving
I'm not saying you don't love me, just that you may find you don't want to share that love with me any more.
It scares me.

Airyn: You're taking little things like someone being hungry and coming up with a famine. You may feel foolish in a few months after she' left and everything is just like it was before.

me: it makes me sad
maybe
you are usually right.
that nightmare I told you about.
It's my biggest fear right now.
that I'll come home
and you'll just be gone.
your things, and even Wolf gone
all gone
An empty house, an empty bed, an empty life
I cry in the car when I leave for work, and on my way home
I have to go I have to get up and walk
it's to much and I can't think

Airyn: ok

From there we went to texting. I told him I didn't feel so good. That I was going to wash my face, and get out and do some of the physical work that is being asked of me right now.

He said, "okay I hope you feel better."

Then he took some time during the day while Chipmunk was going through her stuff, to ask if i was ok. Checking in with me to see how I was feeling. It was not a good day for me in general. I knew that he anc Chipmunk would need to talk. I told him the night before that I would try to stay out of the way so that they could have the space she would need.

I went for a walk, they argued at the house. Then Airyn messaged me saying he was going to take her out to do the holiday shopping she wants, asked if i was ok. Told me they were on their way out and that I should come home now. I told him I was sitting in a park not far from home with my knitting. I knit it's relaxing, and I have a list of projects I want to do. Plus a good long walk helps when your thoughts and emotions are in a swirl.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married

Last edited by Numina; 12-07-2012 at 09:55 AM.
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  #67  
Old 12-07-2012, 09:54 AM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Chipmunk In the aftermath:

Long email condensed down, I have basically told Chipmunk to grow up, to change.
Airyn has told me that he's with me on every point in this, and has stuck to that. He told me that I did the right thing, that I did not do or say anything wrong.

We both have seen how she is, and knew she would react badly. Even when the conversation is not harsh, argumentative, or asking her to compromise, or be flexible she takes it negatively. as negatively as possible. So I knew, and Airyn knew that the email would not go over well, and that she would be upset, and that it would take time for her to calm down and think rationally about it.

Her first reaction was sadness (maybe even grief). Tears, upset, then anger at me. Arguing with Airyn about what was said. Then denial, the she began to question Airyn about some of the things in the email. now she is more calm, and is beginning to accept and is show (at least) Airyn that she is willing to work at her stuff.

Airyn told me that she was venting at her closest friend, her first love, and x-boyfriend from high school I'll call him YoungLove. He told her to calm down and shut up. I'm not sure if she forwarded the email to him or not, but I would not be surprised if she did.

In her anger at me Thursday morning, she was venting, throwing things into bags, and tossing them into the closet she uses. Cleaning up the mess in the bathroom, and bedroom with angry energy. Telling Airyn she going to move out, leaving done. His response (as he tells me), Maybe you should get your own place. He says that stopped her. It was the first time she said she was going to move out that he had agreed with her. It opened her eyes some. Made her have to take a step back and actually think. Does she really want to leave, move out, go her own way?

Next she did some denial, I do not know what was said on her end, and that is probably a good thing. Then she began asking questions of Airyn. Do I really sound like that, talk like that to you? He tells me he pointed out thing that she had said and done the day before. She had no reply, but when she again started to order him around she caught herself. Told Airyn that she doesn't want him to do what she had just said unless he wanted to.

It's a beginning. It is difficult to work at making changes within me. To grow for myself, and my relationships when I see (or feel) that I am the only one working to fix personal stuff.

Airyn told me before I left for work that Chipmunk is no longer saying she's moving out, that now she is talking about one of the houses I was looking at. That she has gone through all these emotions in less then a day, and decided that she does want to work on being in this relationship. That she is willing to work on her so that she can continue to live with this family.

Now I have things to think about, emotions of my own to work through, and changes of my own to make happen. Airyn and Chipmunk spent the majority of the day out together. Talking, shopping, walking around Malls, and stores together. Friday (today) Is My day with Airyn. Chipmunk wants to do more Holiday shopping, but has not said as much to me as of yet. She has told this to Airyn.

Today is My day, and I have not decided if i want to do holiday shopping. I am tired, mentally, emotionally, and physically tired. My job is draining on me this time of year. The emotions, and turmoil of these past weeks is hard. I need rest, relaxation. I am an introvert, so doing the social things, going out for shopping therapy (as some call it), sitting at a bar or resturant is not for me.

I will have to see how I feel when I get off. No matter how I feel I will remind Airyn and Chipmunk both as calmly, and respectfully as I am currently able that Today is my day. That I am done setting things like that aside to keep Chipmunk's drama down. It is high time I start taking care of myself. It is past time for the things we have talked about, the requests that have been made to be put first. She had all of yesterday to work through how she felt. It may not be much; however personal growth comes from within, not from outside. Having time where she has to think, and work things out for herself with out Airyn as a sounding board (even if just for a day) is not a bad thing.

Deep breath.

You are all correct. I, We all have work to do. Living together though means that everyone has to work, not just one or two, but everyone. We don't all have to work at the same pace, but visable work is needed to keep things moving in positive directions.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #68  
Old 12-07-2012, 10:22 AM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Giggles and silliness with Wolf

Not all things were sad yesterday. Here's a fun bit.

Wolf and I had planned to walk to school Thursday morning. we were leaving later then planned, and walked out the door to find that it was drizzling, well misting actually. So I told her we'd take the car. I don't remember the whole conversation as I started out giving her just half an ear. I was still thinking about the conversation with Airyn while I was at work.

Eventually our conversation turned silly. I told Wolf that I'm tired and grumpy. That I'm always tired and grumpy.

Wolf: Your only grumpy sometimes mom.

Me: Nope I'm always grumpy <Exaggerated angry face>

Wolf: <giggling> You are grumpy a lot.

Me: Get it right I'm always grumpy and don't you tell any one any different. You tell them your mom's a scary angry lady, and don't mess with her. <more exaggerated angry face>

Wolf <more Giggles> ok your always scary grumpy.

We talked more in the car about how she is treated by other people at school, mostly she just wanted an ear to listen, and to hear her mom tell her that she can be mean and rude back when the situation warrants it. She won't be rude, or mean, she a good kid and just wants to make friends. She does however enjoy it when I tell her to say the ridiculous thing.

Like when some one asks her an inappropriate questions I told her once that instead of answer their question she should ask what hand they wipe there ass with. lol, that brought a smile to a tear filled face. Today I was telling her that when someone is being unreasonable, and ridged she needs to remember that she is open minded. That she can tell them she has friends that are as closed minded as they are, and it won't hurt her to not have another one. That she should tell these people that she is different, that she is weird. That weird is better then normal, who wants to be normal, everyone else is normal. Weird is pretty cool.They are missing out on getting to know someone who is different if they chose to stick to their ridge attitudes. She isn't missing anything as she already has people in her life that are like that.

These conversation make her smile.

On the way home she and I were walking, no drizzling this time. She asked what I was thinking about. I hadn't been paying attention tothe conversation. I admitted that i had a lot on my mind. Told her I was thinging about holiday, and b-day gifts that I still need to get. Then I said:

Me: I told on you to my brother today. I told him you were making fun of me and my grumpy anger.

Wolf: <Giggling> Which brother?

ME: My brother with my dad

Wolf: You have a lot of brothers, your like the only girl.

Me: What about my sister? Is (new nickname) Mustache a brother too?

Wolf: <Giggling> Yep Mustache is a brother.

Me: Ohhh I'm telling her you said that.

Wolf: Giggling

Me: texting my sister - "Wolf told me I have a lot of brothers, and I'm like the only girl. I said what about you, or are you a brother too? She said yep she's a brother too. Then told me I was very guyish too. O.o" <end text>

Wolf: <Laughing> She will probably relate that to Cheese or poop, she alsways relates things to Cheese or Poop. Cheesy poop. Poopy cheese!

Me: lol yeah probabaly.

Text from Mustache: HAHAHAHAHAHahahahahaha
I'm a man!

Wolf: <still chattering on> And if she ever gets a pet she should name is Cheese.

Me: well that's better then poop. Oh let see what Mustache said.
<Reading text to Wolf>

Me Texting back: lol, Wolf says if you get a pet you should name it cheese! and she said YEP Mustache you are a man. hahahahahaha

Me and Wolf: Laughing over the silly

Text from Mustache: But Charlie isn't cheese.

Me texting back: Hahahaha

Charlie is Mustache's pet gerbal. lol

Then we get home, Airyn and Chipmunk are out again. they decided to walk to Chipmunk's store and do some more shopping, and to let Chipmunk talk some more. By this point she wasn't angry at me any more, and had shown me the things she purchased, and told me what was for Wolf, versus her family members.

After a little while I tell Wolf that I can't stay up and wait on them to get home, that I really need sleep. We give each other bed time hugs, and I go to my room. When Chipmunk and Airyn get home Airyn comes to check on me. Seeing how I'm feeling, and then telling me to get some sleep, and he'll check in on me again later.
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Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #69  
Old 12-07-2012, 07:04 PM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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I am not sure you realize that part of success for relationships is accepting people as they are. People don't like the bait and switch of "you're wonderful!" and then being told "you're wonderful but I need you to do x, y and z to keep thinking so" Chipmunk was invited into your home as is because nobody took the time to know her, and now she is being told who she is isn't good enough (dont' get me wrong, I wouldve said long time ago - made a mistake, youre wonderful but I can't live with you because we aren't compatible that way). I hope that in the future you take the view that people should be accepted for who they are, and if they don't mesh with you as roommates, friends or lovers, then don't have them be that. If they aren't mature enough to be in a seriously complicated relationship, either dont be in one or accept that they are flawed. I don't imagine if Wolf gets involved with an older person you would like to hear they are being told they need to do this and do that and grow up in order to be good enough to be in the relationship.

I'm kind of sad that you glossed over my advice about it being you and Airyn that you should be focusing on. Airyn is the hinge and he's the one who should be willing to do the buttload of the work, and so far I haven't seen much but cowardly behavior from him and letting you do most of it. I know its easier to tell other people to change because that's easier than working on yourself so it feels like a possible easy fix. If you expect Chipmunk to change overnight, maybe you should do it first to set an example. You and Airyn seem so caught up keeping the emotional drama going (not on purpose, just not choosing to step out of the whirlwind) that doing the basic groundwork which would possibly fix the majority of issues you have must not seem interesting. Without making firm time and space for you and him to be alone and being together, you allow the issues with Chipmunk to be present even in the rare times she isn't.

I really wish you guys luck but I think you could do a lot of stuff you're not to set yourselves up for success.
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:51 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post
Airyn:...You may feel foolish in a few months after she' left and everything is just like it was before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anneintherain View Post
... If they aren't mature enough to be in a seriously complicated relationship, either dont be in one or accept that they are flawed. I don't imagine if Wolf gets involved with an older person you would like to hear they are being told they need to do this and do that and grow up in order to be good enough to be in the relationship.

Airyn is the hinge and he's the one who should be willing to do the buttload of the work, and so far I haven't seen much but cowardly behavior from him and letting you do most of it. I know its easier to tell other people to change because that's easier than working on yourself so it feels like a possible easy fix. If you expect Chipmunk to change overnight, maybe you should do it first to set an example.
Airyn has a screw loose if he thinks that your relationship will go back to what it was before you and he got involved with Chipmunk. Even if she moves out tomorrow, your relationship has irrevocably changed. You are not the same person, neither is he. You cannot unknow what has happened. It shows that Airyn is engaging in magical thinking. Such magical thinking - 'if I do this one thing or someone else does this one thing, then all will be well' - is dangerous as it prevents one from understanding the reality of a situation. (I'm not saying he is the only one - it seems like you and Chipmunk has also engaged in magical thinking. It's a very human thing to do. But poison to relationships.)

To echo Anneintherain, please think about what this relationship with Chipmunk is teaching Wolf. PLEASE understand I am not saying you or Airyn are bad parents, not at all. You clearly love that little girl so much. (She seems delightful!) She is picking up something about the situation. Little pitchers are perceptive - they will not understand it as an adult would but they do hear and see things and think about them and fit them into their understanding of the world - often in ways that startle adults. You and Airyn might be setting an example for her that the most immature, unpleasant person wins. And that she should defer to said immature people. That being young and hot means tantrums are ok to throw. That special treatment from others for the young and hot and female is expected (this message is too prevalent already in general society). Or there may be other lessons she is learnign from the situation. Yes, she can learn about generosity and willingness to help from your example too. But think about what she is learning. What are you and Airyn and Chipmunk modeling for her?

Do you and Airyn realize you cannot 'fix' Chipmunk? She needs more help than you or Airyn can provide. Her background has not equipped her in any way with relevant, functional, and sane relationship skills. This is tragic and not her fault in any way. Yes, she can learn but you cannot be the ones to teach her. It is beyond your capability - not because you are useless or uncaring or unwilling - but because she is damaged enough to need professional help.

Finally, Chipmunk does not want to move. She wants Airyn and you to take care of her. So she will attempt to work on her issues. But unless she is seeing a professional therapist and possibly a psychiatrist as well AND making actual trackable progress, this will be a facade, a way to stay in the home. And Airyn is correct in that his relationship with Chipmunk will end if she moves out. However, it will end because his care of her is the reason for the relationship. If he does not take care of her on her terms, meaning constant contact and attention and care, then yes, she will dump him and find someone else to take care of her. And she will proceed to make that person's life hell until they kick her out or she understands this destructive pattern and begins to change. (It's also instructive that your husband has such a need to take care of someone to this degree. Why is that? It's to the point of being destructive.)

You and Airyn could try stopping taking care of her. Don't drive her places. Don't feed her meals. Don't bring her lunch. Don't pay her bills. Have her manage her own calendar. Expect her to contribute to the household. Treat her as a roommate and not a child. (You don't seem to accept such behavior from Wolf. Why accept it from Chipmunk? Because she is more obnoxious and difficult to deal with than your sweet daughter?) Combining this with the demand to grow up and learn how to be a responsible adult in an adult relationship might push her to become a real adult. But it's a long shot. She will probably move out before doing that hard work.

Last edited by opalescent; 12-07-2012 at 07:53 PM. Reason: clarity
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