Mono is a feature not a bug

[BoringGuy]

Originally Posted by PolyLinguist

As for the five ways of giving love, I'll get to that discussion some other time. I do consider such things mumbo-jumbo - the inclusion of "quality time" is a red flag for me. I encountered it when I was raising my kinds, and it made me angry. All time spent with your kids is quality time. If I study Japanese while they play on Nintendo it is quality time - they know their father is trying to maintain his intelligence rather than let it run down, and this will make them think (eventually). It is hard to imagine what time I spend in the company of my wife would not be quality time. When I sleep, maybe? Or take a shower?

I thought the same thing about the "quality time" bit. But I chose to interpret it as "one-on-one" time or "special" time. Still, if they meant those things, they could have said those things instead. It isn't a thing for me personally, since I believe it is possible to show affection without actually being with someone in person, and maybe you're that way too, but for some people it is a big deal to have their "date night" or to go out for dinner on their anniversary or Valentine's day.

[ThatGirlInGray]

It's not even necessarily as big as a date night, nor is it mumbo jumbo. There's a HUGE difference between MC and I sitting in the living room on our respective phones/computers surfing the 'net and the two of us sitting in the living room watching one of our favorite programs together, commenting on it as we go. In the latter scenario we are connecting, in the former we are not. If we've had plenty of connection time lately, fine, we don't need to think about whether we are doing things together or separately. If we haven't (And with work, kids, and the time I spend with TGIB, it's likely we haven't so much) then we need to put more thought and intention into the time we spend together, rather than just spacing out for the 2 hours between when the kids go to bed and when we go to bed. It can be as simple as talking while we fold the laundry and do dishes, rather than one of us folding the laundry in one room while the other does dishes in another room. The same chores get done, but the amount and QUALITY of our time together makes a difference in how connected we feel to each other at any given time (assuming there has been a lack lately. Maybe you've never felt like you haven't spent enough time lately paying attention to your spouse or kids. Good for you. I feel it all the time, and this is after 15 years together.)

[WhatHappened]

Originally Posted by BoringGuy

Let's face it: what women want is a guy with a great body and a huge penis. He doesn't even have to be handsome. He can always do them from behind or put a paper bag with a yellow smiley face over his head.

Thanks for getting to the heart of the matter! And yes to also knowing how to use a few power tools around the house!

[rory]

Originally Posted by PolyLinguist

After lunch the couple will repair to the most convenient secluded location – someone’s apartment or house, a hotel room if there is no better solution, and make love. It was taken for granted from the very beginning that they will do this – if for some reason she can’t, she either doesn’t accept the invitation in the first place, or explain – very sweetly – why she can’t. No man likes to be kept on tenderhooks about such things, or feel that he has to go through hoops every time.

In case you were wondering, it is these kind of remarks (besides the gift stuff others have commented on) that give the sexist wibe. The assumption that if somebody's gonna not want to have sex, it will be the woman; and the basic thing where going on a date or accepting an invitation to spend time together privately with a man means you owe him sex. Yuck.

(I should maybe let this be my last contribution to this thread, since I am too triggered by the sexism to contribute much useful to the actual content. Best of luck.)

[Phy]

Originally Posted by rory

(I should maybe let this be my last contribution to this thread, since I am too triggered by the sexism to contribute much useful to the actual content. Best of luck.)

Thanks. I feel the same and I am just dumbstruck how all those things that have been talked about here may even be in some way a problem for someone out there. I don't get it at all. Not the slightest. Maybe I am living in some kind of secluded area of Europe (as the OP mentioned that Europeans work this or that way) but all those problems never came to my mind and I don't know any people facing them.

In general, I have to second rory, that bit raised a brow in my case as well. And I don't think that basic assumptions about 'how men/women are' or 'what men/women want' won't impact on your dating approach. After you have given your name and the overall info you will act accordingly to what you assume the other person is expecting of you and there you are, attracting people that obviously will fall in the catergories you have just described.

But well, wishing you luck for your search.

[InfinitePossibility]

Whathappened - I wanted to thank you for your comments on this thread. Some of it along with some chats with my SO enabled me to articulate why some situations bother me. Thanks.

Other than that, I find this thread quite bothersome. So much sexism and assumptions about what women want and what men want. I dislike that sort of stuff - I think it encourages people to see each other as memes rather than individuals and for me, that is a problem.

Originally Posted by PolyLinguist

All time spent with your kids is quality time. If I study Japanese while they play on Nintendo it is quality time - they know their father is trying to maintain his intelligence rather than let it run down, and this will make them think (eventually).

I so disagree with that. All time spent with kids is certainly not quality time. When I was a kid, my dad loved being a father. Nothing made him happier than being engaged with his kids. He taught us to ski, to mend cars, to build things, to paint. He read with us and watched Dr. Who (long-running British sci fi show) with us. Not just with us - with our friends and with his friends too.

We loved being with him and his enthusiasm for engaging with us is a big part of why people loved him so much.

I doubt very much if I would have such positive childhood memories of my dad if our time together had been spent with me reading books while dad did his own thing.

I'm kind of offended the notion that all time spent with children or with friends or partners is equal - it isn't at all to me.

But then I'm not likely to ever find myself being in a friendship with somebody who sees women as memes and who thinks that spending an evening in my company checking their own e-mails and the football scores is as fulfilling for me as spending an evening in my company doing something with me.

I do wish you luck in your search.

IP

[JaneQSmythe]

The date sounds perfect!

I agree with Meera that, in my case, there would probably be a bit more conversation about what's going on in the rest of their lives/ with their other partners - but that may be because MrS and Dude were best friends for several years before I even met Dude.

As for this:

Originally Posted by PolyLinguist

I am not sure about some of the gift-giving limitations, women so love to show off baubles offered by admirers. But I know this, and wouldn't want to disappoint such a lovely partner.

I don't wear jewelry and hate it when people buy me "stuff" that I don't need and haven't asked for. MrS and I stopped buying "occasion" (Birthday/Christmas/etc.) gifts for each other 15 years ago and Dude and I never started. (MrS and Dude will occasionally buy "funny" gifts for me or each other if it will get a laugh.)

I'll read on to see how others responded...

JaneQ

PS. I see that others addressed the gift-giving/love languages stuff.

PPS. I'm slowly training Dude out of his habit of generalizing "All women like..." (chocolate, ice cream, flowers, gifts, "shiny things", cuddling after sex) - as I don't like ANY of those things.

[PolyLinguist]

Originally Posted by rory

In case you were wondering, it is these kind of remarks (besides the gift stuff others have commented on) that give the sexist wibe. The assumption that if somebody's gonna not want to have sex, it will be the woman; and the basic thing where going on a date or accepting an invitation to spend time together privately with a man means you owe him sex. Yuck.

(I should maybe let this be my last contribution to this thread, since I am too triggered by the sexism to contribute much useful to the actual content. Best of luck.)

Rory, this is not why I said this, and I am sorry if I offended you.

Remember, A issued the invitation first. If he wasn't interested, he wouldn't have called. B can call too. Then A can play hot and cold, if he wants to.

And no, you never owe some one sex, ever. But if this is a sexual relationship, and one partner (either the man or the woman) says no a lot of the time, it's not the right relationship, and it should be called off. I know, this is difficult to do when there are children, or a lot of common entanglements, but I was not describing such a relationship.

[WhatHappened]

I have to agree that I find some of the assumptions in this thread very...unrealistic?

Women like shiny baubles? I'm sorry if those weren't the exact words, but I believe baubles was in there. It leaves me feeling like a spoiled Victorian child...or perhaps a cat...whose mind is completely occupied with a shiny toy. It feels superficial, shallow, almost as if I, as a woman, just need a pretty toy to distract me and keep me out of trouble and uncomplaining until the great Man is ready to have sex with me again.

It just might be that I, despite being a mere woman, would like heavy tomes full of great knowledge just as you would; that I might pass up a bunch of sparkly diamonds for the chance to study multiple languages and philosophy; perhaps I'd be more thrilled to receive a harpsichord and a pile of Bach manuscripts and develop a real talent with my hands, rather than use them to clap at a pretty Swarovski shooting rainbows in the sunlight.

I will presume you didn't really mean any of this, and in fact, will half-apologize--I'm just playing with you, and playing with words at this point to elaborate the point more than necessary.

Any time is quality time? No, not at all. That point has been well-illustrated by others, though. I'll leave my own examples aside except to say there is a huge difference to my kids between me taking the time to watch a movie with them, read a book with them, say family prayers with them, play a game of chess with them, go on a walk or bike ride with them...and me buried in my computer...wanting them to leave me alone. I think I repeated with them a lot.

Feelings being involved in you sampling different restaurants--being somehow akin to a person...hm. True that no analogy is perfect, but I think that is still far off base. Even to do so, you had to bring in a person. And a chef will never have a relationship with the diners at the restaurant where he cooks anything like as personal and intimate, anything like as important to his life, as the relationship between two people.

[opalescent]

Originally Posted by PolyLinguist

As I already said elsewhere, such episodes happened with me, very occasionally. Since I analyse everything, I have analysed the circumstances under which such sexual encounters can happen: the woman likes you, trusts you, and the desire to have sex with me hits her, right there and then. I won't say no, why would I? It doesn't hurt. But it's her choice. Should I as much as touch a woman friend "inappropriately", when she doesn't feel like it, would quite possibly damage the friendship, and it could easily label me as a creep.

And no, you can't really discuss this kind of thing openly. If you start discussing it, it is becoming a relationship, with expectations.

Originally Posted by PolyLinguist

As for the five ways of giving love, I'll get to that discussion some other time. I do consider such things mumbo-jumbo - the inclusion of "quality time" is a red flag for me. I encountered it when I was raising my kinds, and it made me angry. All time spent with your kids is quality time. If I study Japanese while they play on Nintendo it is quality time - they know their father is trying to maintain his intelligence rather than let it run down, and this will make them think (eventually). It is hard to imagine what time I spend in the company of my wife would not be quality time. When I sleep, maybe? Or take a shower?

Anyway, don't let me continue on this, I just get angry and then get your backs up! I am not North American by birth, and managed to escape psycho-babble in my upbringing.

I've hightlighted the bits of the postings I wanted to discuss. First, you seem to have an odd, from my perspective, reluctance to discuss relationship type issues with women (or perhaps anyone). Of course you can talk about it! Why not? A friendship is a relationship. And friendships come with expectations.

I respect and understand your desire not to infringe on boundaries, and your wish not to be creepy. But the way to non-creepy WHILE also possibly leading to lovely sexual interactions with friends is to talk about it with said friends. I do not get why people are so reluctant to talk. I do, my friends do. Yes, it is hard and awkward and weird. But it is necessary. You might have missed out on some opportunities because of not talking about the possible attraction.

I do not disagree with your statement on North America and pop psychology. There is a lot of dreck out there. However, I have an experiment for you.

Read the Five Love Languages book. Take the test. See which ones you score highest in. See if your spouse and maybe your children will take the test and see what love languages they use. If they won't, do the experiment by yourself. (There are several free online tests for the Five Love Languages. Just google the book title. The book is readily available in most library systems or via Amazon or local bookstore.) Suspend your disapproval and distrust of such psycho-babble while reading and testing.

Now, behave like you have bought into the Five Love Languages analysis. Notice when and how you most feel loved and when and how you show love. Notice when how they react to when you show love to your spouse or children. Do they notice you were showing them love? Do they thank you? Do they respond similarly? Do they respond more positively if you show love in one way versus another (i.e. spending time with them vs. gifts vs. doing something for them)? See if applying the five love languages provides any insights into how you send out and receive love back from others. See if applying it provides insight into how your loved ones perceive getting love and how they show others love.

Now you may not get much out of the concept. But I challenge you to give it a sincere try.

I have found it to be an incredibly useful set of concepts. Using it has provided me with useful explanations of other's, and my own, behavior.